F35 or Rafale? The UK and France talk.
The CVF is not just about JCA. The carriers will also be able to support Chinook (they will fit on the lifts and go into the hangers). They will also be able to support (operations, logistics and repair) aircraft such as the Osprey and UAVs. JCA is just part of that element. Remember, GR9 will still be able to operate of these ships but, with a greater payload and in much greater numbers than presently available.Yes, the quote was from an Admiral, who has a very good perspective on what is required to operate in a joint environment, supporting both the RAF and the Army. I am sure the CAS/CGS are aware of it, because the quote is from a VERY high level MOD document.Some of this "willy waving" just re-inforces my attitude that some contributers to these threads have either never been to Shrivenham/Bracknell/Greenwich or if they have, they spent too much time in the bar, because they obviously did not learn very much!
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Widger - concur all VMF's promise. But! EBAO aside, I repeat the question, when can we conceive of doing it, without the US running the show? IE, what a frickin' expensive business to get into, when perhaps the money could be spent elsewhere to enhance other capabilities. Still very joint and with much effect from the sea.
Admiral's opinion or no. I suspect the answer is a bit difficult to fathom. And if it's difficult then why kiss billions goodbye on a pair of (albeit impressive) capital ships that will deliver little in true utility.
I'm not any Service-centric, just interested in the best for us all.
Admiral's opinion or no. I suspect the answer is a bit difficult to fathom. And if it's difficult then why kiss billions goodbye on a pair of (albeit impressive) capital ships that will deliver little in true utility.
I'm not any Service-centric, just interested in the best for us all.
Originally Posted by scottishbeefer
when can we conceive of doing it, without the US running the show?
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Brit, the Rafale is already in service and unquestionably inferior to Typhoon. Clearly, by 2012-15, it will, by any standards, be obsolete! Why would anyone want Rafales by then,, especially when we have more than enough Typhoons to spare? Patently, the whole story is nonsense.
Widger, the whole point of this saga is what we do to replace the GR9 fleet when they finally expire.
It is quite comical, and you have to wonder if anyone (apart from the Mail) took the story seriously. Buy Rafales indeed - the only country that ever wanted Rafales was, er, France!
Widger, the whole point of this saga is what we do to replace the GR9 fleet when they finally expire.
It is quite comical, and you have to wonder if anyone (apart from the Mail) took the story seriously. Buy Rafales indeed - the only country that ever wanted Rafales was, er, France!
Lazer Hound,We already have a 21000 ton ship and it is not big enough to operate Chinook in the manner that we would like to keep our valuable SH brethren. You are obviously talking from a position of "lack of knowledge" unless you have actually embarked In Illustrious or Invincible lately.
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Tim, if Rafale is 'unquestionably inferior' to Typhoon, how come Rafal came second and Typhoon a poor third in both the South Korea and Singapore cometitions. Clearly, neither of them are as good as a warmed over 1970's designed F15, though
Widger, could not CH47's be operated quite safely and effectively froma 30kt ship?
Widger, could not CH47's be operated quite safely and effectively froma 30kt ship?
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Well you only need to take a look at history to work out why Rafale does relatively well - France could sell coals to Newcastle! The actual product might be inferior but France's aerospace teams always know how to sell a product, hence the success of the Mirage at the Jaguar's expense, the premature killing off of Concorde, the supremacy of Airbus whereby we merely build wings for essentially French designs (the A320 was basically a Dassault design), and so on.
France would sell anything to anybody! The Typhoon, F35 and Raptor are all in a different (later) class, but (unsurprisingly) rather more expensive, so it's hardly a surprise that they're not exactly the most attractive options for most countries.
France would sell anything to anybody! The Typhoon, F35 and Raptor are all in a different (later) class, but (unsurprisingly) rather more expensive, so it's hardly a surprise that they're not exactly the most attractive options for most countries.
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Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
Brit, the Rafale is already in service and unquestionably inferior to Typhoon. Clearly, by 2012-15, it will, by any standards, be obsolete! Why would anyone want Rafales by then,, especially when we have more than enough Typhoons to spare? Patently, the whole story is nonsense.
Widger, the whole point of this saga is what we do to replace the GR9 fleet when they finally expire.
It is quite comical, and you have to wonder if anyone (apart from the Mail) took the story seriously. Buy Rafales indeed - the only country that ever wanted Rafales was, er, France!
Widger, the whole point of this saga is what we do to replace the GR9 fleet when they finally expire.
It is quite comical, and you have to wonder if anyone (apart from the Mail) took the story seriously. Buy Rafales indeed - the only country that ever wanted Rafales was, er, France!
The Typhoon clearly is a waste of billions as the F-35 is (should be) coming. The money could have been spent on body armor, ammunitions ...
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Tim, has it occured to you that the French might actually build good aircrafty at reasonable prices that people might actually want to buy? Consider, for example, the huge export success of the Mirage III/V seriers compared to its UK equivalent, the Lightening.
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Originally Posted by SitUp
No the Rafale is superior to the Typhoon in every role except as interceptor. Rafales won't be obsolete before a very long time
The export Rafale is and was nothing more than a cynical attempt by France to muscle-in on the Typhoon's potential market, after having pulled-out of any possible involvement in the Eurofighter programme. In typical French style, they persisted with Rafale rather than staying with Eurofighter, and in return for their efforts they got an aircraft which barely competes with the initial in-service version of Typhoon. The Rafale was obsolete before it was delivered in many respects, being a victim of its own hurried timescale. France was so hell-bent on getting ahead of Eurofighter (presumably because they thought that they could steal a whole range of potential exports) that they've now got themselves an aircraft which is years behind the Typhoon and Raptor, so the notion that we'd abandon the next generation design (F35) and leap back two generations is quite comical to everyone apart from the Mail.
As for France's track record Lazer, the Mirage family (which was the only French product of any significance) was a design based unashamedly on the British Fairey Delta (as even Dassault grudingly accepted), and sold tremendously well because the British (as usual) were incapable of developing and selling a superior design. While France happily hauled-in Mirage exports, we suffered from the whims of stupid politicians who wouldn't spend money on developing the Lightning (and other designs) into what would have been far superior machines.
The Jaguar was another classic case of a good design which failed to reach its ultimate potential (until perhaps a year or so ago!) thanks to Britain's lack of foresight, and one which could have been a huge export success if France hadn't been busy running around to all of the potential Jaguar customers, quietly informing them that they could supply them with Mirages for less money!
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 27th Feb 2006 at 14:55.
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Originally Posted by Lazer-Hound
Anyone who mentions Typhoon and Raptor in the same sentence (unless that sentence is "Typhoon is clearly light-years behind Raptor") is talking out of their arrse.
Originally Posted by Lazer-Hound
Anyone who mentions Typhoon and Raptor in the same sentence (unless that sentence is "Typhoon is clearly light-years behind Raptor") is talking out of their arrse.
Typhoon 90% of a Raptor at 50% of the price!!
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Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
As for France's track record Lazer, the Mirage family (which was the only French product of any significance) was a design based unashamedly on the British Fairey Delta (as even Dassault grudingly accepted), and sold tremendously well because the British (as usual) were incapable of developing and selling a superior design. While France happily hauled-in Mirage exports, we suffered from the whims of stupid politicians who wouldn't spend money on developing the Lightning (and other designs) into what would have been far superior machines.
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The Rafale indeed may be slightly behind Typhoon as as Interceptor but, It probably isn't too far behind and is a more mature option in other roles; seems like a good all rounder and I wouldn't call it obsolete. With the right weapons and avionics fit; I could see it being very good indeed!
It is already marinised and would easily be ready for CVF. It's also a twin engine design so, a much better bet as a naval aircraft than a single engined F35 that we can't service or be trusted with by our "So called Allies."
I'm warming to the idea!
It is already marinised and would easily be ready for CVF. It's also a twin engine design so, a much better bet as a naval aircraft than a single engined F35 that we can't service or be trusted with by our "So called Allies."
I'm warming to the idea!
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Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew
Without wishing to condone the abuse in the post, perhaps you could explain, with proof, why the Typhoon is "clearly light years behind Raptor"? The crews (of Typhoon) that I have spoken to are extremely pleased with the capability of the first jets and these aren't yet at full capability.
Typhoon 90% of a Raptor at 50% of the price!!
Typhoon 90% of a Raptor at 50% of the price!!
Typhoon - 90% of F16 Block 60 at 150% of the price!
I don't really mean to knock Typhoon, it's a damned sight better than anything else in the RAF inventory, but when jingoistic idiots knock Rafale (which, as I stated, came out better than Typhoon in at least 2 strenuous evaluations) I tend to kick back.
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http://www.blackpoolonline.co.uk/Vie...icleID=1367604
This Article seems to suggest that we are in talks with regard to a Eurofighter Mark 2.
This Article seems to suggest that we are in talks with regard to a Eurofighter Mark 2.
Originally Posted by Lazer-Hound
Well let's see, Raptor has AESA, TVC, all-aspect stealth, supercruise at Mach 1.7, Typhoon has none of these.
Typhoon - 90% of F16 Block 60 at 150% of the price!
I don't really mean to knock Typhoon, it's a damned sight better than anything else in the RAF inventory, but when jingoistic idiots knock Rafale (which, as I stated, came out better than Typhoon in at least 2 strenuous evaluations) I tend to kick back.
Typhoon - 90% of F16 Block 60 at 150% of the price!
I don't really mean to knock Typhoon, it's a damned sight better than anything else in the RAF inventory, but when jingoistic idiots knock Rafale (which, as I stated, came out better than Typhoon in at least 2 strenuous evaluations) I tend to kick back.
Try to stop throwing insults around. "Jingoistic idiots", that reallywill help the debate.
So Raptor isn't actually light years ahead then. Su 37(?) and Mig 29 have thrust vectoring, in fact had it first I believe. Typhoon can supercruise (not sure of the speed), Rafale though cannot. F16 - not marinised and not carrier capable (although I accept neither is Typhoon at this time) and single engined. When Typhoon Tranche 3 come, with FULL air to ground capability, they will have more capability than F16 Block 60 and a longer service life. And Typhoon has more stealth than either Rafale or F16.
Let's not forget that the USAF are having big problems with Raptor, which at the moment is just an interceptor, but have the luxury of throwing huge amounts of money at it to get it to work.
Typoon 90% of Raptor at 50% of the price.