FJ v Helicopter
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Visually acquiring Lynx/Gazelle can be extremely tricky if they know what they are doing over anything other than flat terrain, and sometimes even then.Even if you are in Tac Form with them.
And hitting Gazelle with anything heat seeking is unlikely.
One of the Gazelles in the FI escaped by the expedient of landing and running away from the helicopter, which the Pucara failed to hit on strafeing runs!
I always thought that bombing us would be the easiest.
How close to us do you FJ guys have to be to knock us over if you do a supersonic pass?
The reason I ask is that we might be at 2ft
And hitting Gazelle with anything heat seeking is unlikely.
One of the Gazelles in the FI escaped by the expedient of landing and running away from the helicopter, which the Pucara failed to hit on strafeing runs!
I always thought that bombing us would be the easiest.
How close to us do you FJ guys have to be to knock us over if you do a supersonic pass?
The reason I ask is that we might be at 2ft
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Without giving too much away - ha ha. If it's worth doing, or effective, it's probably giving something away to someone. How about boring them to death with more of the same?
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Surely a big fat wobbly Chinook couldn't get out of the way that quick!
A camoflaged helo at low level can be extremely difficult to visually acquire (I have always had to talk the jet jockey onto my position when playing Fighter Affil). The rotary can also play dirty by going ultra low and hiding or by trying to encourage the jet to stoof into the ground. If all this fails to work, a Chinny with a triple fit of 'lead laser' would probably bring tears to the eyes of many aggressors. Point the solid beam of glowing lead in their direction and watch them bug out and run for their hotel bar 500 miles behind the FLOT.
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Originally Posted by Fg Off Max Stout
You'd be surprised how well a Chinook can turn.
But what you all miss, is that all this turning does s*d all for you if the fighter is looking down on you from 6-8-10k'. And I recall flying each mission in Bos with gyro-stabilised binos for the purpose of helo spotting ...
If you can pitch ND from 12k and F2 then you barely need go near the helo - and he can turn through all the circles he wants down there but he isn't actually moving very far at all.
Best bet for the helo is to land and have a cup of tea. I don't recall my ROE allowing me to engage tea-drinking helo crews !!!
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Chinooks can indeed turn like a b'stard, which is just as well as they stand out like a bulldog's compared to a single rotor jellyflopter. Having talked to a few jet mates, if you can get a squirt of lead (of any form, but given the choice, I'll have the chinny's lead laser anytime) in his rough direction it will be enough to make him think twice. Imagine the banter if you get shot down by a helicopter....
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During the '82 South Atlantic Games an RN Lynx on picket at altitude and well away from the Fleet was attacked by a couple of Argie Miracles - apparently he knew he was under attack because of the cracking sound of the cannon shells going by - he rolled the Lynx on its back and dove for the deck - he credited his escape on the manoeuvrability of the helo and the fact that the Argie pilots thought that it was probably all too easy and did not consider a co-ordinated pairs attack.
I was involved in some semi-official 1 Huey v 2 Macchi years ago and even that venerable old machine could generally hold its own.
If a modern helo knows you are about he will more than likely be able to well and truly out manoeuvre you and the next thing you know - "bingo".
GAGS
E86
I was involved in some semi-official 1 Huey v 2 Macchi years ago and even that venerable old machine could generally hold its own.
If a modern helo knows you are about he will more than likely be able to well and truly out manoeuvre you and the next thing you know - "bingo".
GAGS
E86
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OK, Time for a dose of reality,
The key for helo mates is to fly at night in ****e weather. The ROE alone will, prevent getting fragged. Most realistic opposition in any case have v poor ability in this situation. Can't really imagine the Iranian airforce going up against allied forces at night.
For our FJ mates, what can be done against THEIR helos at night under stict visident rules??
I wouldn't worry about that case either, the capability of most realistic adversaries at night is just too poor to worry about. (At the moment)
The key for helo mates is to fly at night in ****e weather. The ROE alone will, prevent getting fragged. Most realistic opposition in any case have v poor ability in this situation. Can't really imagine the Iranian airforce going up against allied forces at night.
For our FJ mates, what can be done against THEIR helos at night under stict visident rules??
I wouldn't worry about that case either, the capability of most realistic adversaries at night is just too poor to worry about. (At the moment)
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In my experience it has always been near impossible for a FJ pilot to correctly V.ID a helo.
And even if you can get the 'type'....chances of being 100% sure its enemy is very slim indeed.
The "good-guys" in NATO operate Russian helos too.
Whilst the USAF did get a kill on a Mil-8 with a LGB in GW1, they also V.ID'd a pair of US Army Blackhawks as Russian Hinds and shot them down in Afganistan (circa 1990).
Its hard to imagine a situation where FJ assets would be used (read 'wasted') on air-to-air helo ops.
That only leaves the targets of opportunity.
a. an FJ heading in to his/her target isnt going to stop for tea with a helo
b. an FJ returning from a mission may have a crack (one pass) but, likewise, isnt going to stop and 'play'. ?One pass, good V.ID.....and a kill......?
Im not saying it wont ever happen but its very unlikely indeed.
All the above said....in ones hyperthetical world.... 1 v 1 the helo will live. 2 v 1, the helo should die.
Question: Would 5 helos make you an ace or just get you some gentle ribbing!!
And even if you can get the 'type'....chances of being 100% sure its enemy is very slim indeed.
The "good-guys" in NATO operate Russian helos too.
Whilst the USAF did get a kill on a Mil-8 with a LGB in GW1, they also V.ID'd a pair of US Army Blackhawks as Russian Hinds and shot them down in Afganistan (circa 1990).
Its hard to imagine a situation where FJ assets would be used (read 'wasted') on air-to-air helo ops.
That only leaves the targets of opportunity.
a. an FJ heading in to his/her target isnt going to stop for tea with a helo
b. an FJ returning from a mission may have a crack (one pass) but, likewise, isnt going to stop and 'play'. ?One pass, good V.ID.....and a kill......?
Im not saying it wont ever happen but its very unlikely indeed.
All the above said....in ones hyperthetical world.... 1 v 1 the helo will live. 2 v 1, the helo should die.
Question: Would 5 helos make you an ace or just get you some gentle ribbing!!
In the event an FJ tried to bounce a mixed Gazelle/Lynx fireteam, I'd have been happy to sacrifice the floppy with a 9mm round from my trusty Browning. All that melting plastic should be sufficient to satisfy FJ-mate, and provide a smokescreen for our escape, as well as a handy IP for CAS to pick off what few targets we'd left.
Last edited by diginagain; 24th Feb 2006 at 06:45.
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Why?
In the complex and expensive process of targets, effects, priorities and resources, why would you want to deploy FJ against helos? Where in any theatre does this threat exist? An errant helo ignoring all the rules/IFF/etc is more likely to be a crazy journo than a true threat. Kim is right about ROE and I sure there are others who remember the hassle of ROE and engagement criteria for FJ against Iraqi helicopters breaking the old BOLTON/WARDEN no-fly zones to commit mayhem on their own countrymen.
Any FJ on station is loaded for its primary and secondary tasks, so it's unlikely to get authority to expend ordnance until it is returning, even if it wanted to.
I know of one man who was highly successful in FW v Wessex 5 engagements, once he had been briefed on the route and was vectored onto them. He had a cracking eye for terrain and knew the ridges and pinch points that the helos had to cross. Then he flew head to head with flaps down and used his cannon.
The aircraft? A Sea Fury.
Any FJ on station is loaded for its primary and secondary tasks, so it's unlikely to get authority to expend ordnance until it is returning, even if it wanted to.
I know of one man who was highly successful in FW v Wessex 5 engagements, once he had been briefed on the route and was vectored onto them. He had a cracking eye for terrain and knew the ridges and pinch points that the helos had to cross. Then he flew head to head with flaps down and used his cannon.
The aircraft? A Sea Fury.
From 18 Sqn linebook sometime in the 1990s:
"Fighter evasion with the Chinook? Easy - undo your straps and run up and down the cabin".
Seem to recall the SAAF used slow-jets - Impalas - as dedicated anti-heli interceptors over Angola. Very effectively. Wasn't that also one of the dedicated roles for the German AlphaJets?
"Fighter evasion with the Chinook? Easy - undo your straps and run up and down the cabin".
Seem to recall the SAAF used slow-jets - Impalas - as dedicated anti-heli interceptors over Angola. Very effectively. Wasn't that also one of the dedicated roles for the German AlphaJets?
Always found getting Aim9 lock on helo surprisingly difficult as all that air swishing about does a good job of diffusing the signature of the engines. If it had to be done (although why we would bother with a FJ when the Iraqis seem to manage with a breech loading rifle is beyond me!) then I'd prefer some sort of area weapon. CBU, or rockets give a reasonable sized pattern and would do the job.
Very effectively. Wasn't that also one of the dedicated roles for the German AlphaJets?
Avoid imitations
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Did a fair bit of official and "unofficial" fighter affil over twenty years ago in W. Germany when it was quite routine to find the boys wanting to play. The Alpha jets never got close enough, nor did the Harriers. The Harriers jocks said that IF they were on the way back home with a few rounds to spare they might have a go on an unarmed heli BUT if there was any chance of retaliation with upwards lumps of lead they just wouldn't risk it.
Our biggest risk was probably from small arms. I never liked to fly as number 3 in formation, the AK-47s were cocked and pointing upwards by then - number one flies over at twenty feet "Wassat? Number two flies over "Not ours!" Number three "Gotcha!" The second biggest risk seemed to be our own RAF Regiment Rapier boys. If we didn't fly tactically they claimed kills with pointy rockets despite the fact that we were squawking the correct IFF. The third biggest risk was from the Yanks who seemed to think a Puma was a Hip, even when stood next to it and talking to the crew.... "Say - are you guys playing the ENEMY?"
Our biggest risk was probably from small arms. I never liked to fly as number 3 in formation, the AK-47s were cocked and pointing upwards by then - number one flies over at twenty feet "Wassat? Number two flies over "Not ours!" Number three "Gotcha!" The second biggest risk seemed to be our own RAF Regiment Rapier boys. If we didn't fly tactically they claimed kills with pointy rockets despite the fact that we were squawking the correct IFF. The third biggest risk was from the Yanks who seemed to think a Puma was a Hip, even when stood next to it and talking to the crew.... "Say - are you guys playing the ENEMY?"
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Recent comment from a 78 sqn SK pilot on the FJ vs. helo question (and the benefit of having a small island in the South Atlantic to practice on):
"We can even practice fighter evasion with the F3s, something we rarely get to do anywhere else, and, yes, we do get away from them sometimes - the 120 kt speed and tight maneuverability of a Chinook can easily outpace an F3, which needs two counties to turn in..."
(Defense Helicopter, Feb/Mar 2006)
I/C
"We can even practice fighter evasion with the F3s, something we rarely get to do anywhere else, and, yes, we do get away from them sometimes - the 120 kt speed and tight maneuverability of a Chinook can easily outpace an F3, which needs two counties to turn in..."
(Defense Helicopter, Feb/Mar 2006)
I/C
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In 1982 a chap was happy-slapped by some low-level A4s down south whilst scooting along in an unladen SK4 - despite having GPMGs on both sides of the cab the crewies were unable to return fire as the SK4 did a swift pirouette into dead ground to get away. These A4s (Argentine Navy I believe) had been pasting our Brigade HQ behind Mt Kent. The A4 lead got in a swift burst of cannon fire, one round of which was on target - bloody good shooting especially as he had seconds few to make the shot and he was streaming fuel out his riddled droptanks at the time! If he had had just a wee bit more time the SK4 would have been toast. I believe that not all of those A4s made it home. A member of that same SK4 crew had a near miss at Goose Green, attacked by a rocket-firing Pucara whilst putting down a full USL of 105 ammo at the Cdo RA 105 battery... That Pucara (bravely flown) was taken out by a RM Air Defence troop, so one back for Dick Nunn and crew. Moral of story - fate is the hunter - life is full of surprises!
Earlier posts about FJ looking down then making the kill are spot on. Trials at Boscombe after 1982 with a 'liberated' Pucara against helos showed that a pull-up and re-attack worked a treat most of the time, just like the Sea Fury mentioned earlier. A criminal shame about the Typhoon cannon, still it is reassuring to know that the Apache has one and it works very well indeed...
Earlier posts about FJ looking down then making the kill are spot on. Trials at Boscombe after 1982 with a 'liberated' Pucara against helos showed that a pull-up and re-attack worked a treat most of the time, just like the Sea Fury mentioned earlier. A criminal shame about the Typhoon cannon, still it is reassuring to know that the Apache has one and it works very well indeed...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
<<If a modern helo knows you are about he will more than likely be able to well and truly out manoeuvre you and the next thing you know - "bingo".>>
Back in the 50s it was the same with the meatbox against a helo. Hare and Hounds of something like that. Best way to catch the rabbit was to treat it as a ground target and just do a GA on it. It moves, it wins, it mves the wrong way it dies. Either way the FJ doesn't hang around.
Why bother? A kills a kill.
Back in the 50s it was the same with the meatbox against a helo. Hare and Hounds of something like that. Best way to catch the rabbit was to treat it as a ground target and just do a GA on it. It moves, it wins, it mves the wrong way it dies. Either way the FJ doesn't hang around.
Why bother? A kills a kill.
There are few things more pleasant as a RW mate in hearing the cockiness drain out of a FJ convexee during his/her first Helo Famil sortie. Yes, once we've taken a F1 in the face for his "trg value", the air of invincibility soon fades as we start to employ our tactics. It's all very well poncing around at 10-12k (away from those beastly manpads!) then selecting your helo for a M1.1 pass. But you have problems; 1. You won't see me unless I make a mistake (SHars v Pumas 1982), 2. I'm RWR aware. 3. I know and exploit the weaknesses of your radar 4. I'll out-turn you all day, and I'll probably out endure you. 5. I will shoot back. 6. I'll scream for help...! Students of Helo Affil may wish to study the Iran/Iraq war; plenty of FJ v RW (and RW v RW), and not all one-sided. I've "fought" against F3s (very operator dependant), Hawks (good sport), Alfa Jets (nasty to see), F15s (ok, but very predictable), Jaguars (like clubbing a seal), SHars (what a radar!), GR7s (clearly no attacks from below....), Falcon 20s (yes, really), Tucano (oops) & Typhoon. Of all of the above ac, only the latter has made me feel uncomfortable inside the merge-slag it off all you like, it can really turn / accellerate. So, does a jet mate want to bleed his energy, waste a weapon on a low PK shot and linger for our cavalry to arrive, I think not. Mind you, all bets off with ASRAAM.....