ARMED FORCES IN MELT DOWN
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: North Yorkshire
Age: 82
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the old days we felt the public didn't understand or appreciate us. It had always been thus, but at least the Services we were in did, were on our side and looked after our best interests. Loyalty, respect and trust went both ways.
But then the Services were taken over by the civilian accountants. We were no longer understood, trusted, valued and looked after by those we work for. We were still expected to put up with all the traditional b*ggering about, the inconvenience and instability for our families, but conditions of service and quality of life were steadily eroded to save pennies and the petty rules and regulations applied with no deference to common sence. And when we have to do our job and fight, the media hover over us like vultures, applying fluffy civilian standards to military action, so God help us if we take the gloves off. And our masters haven't the honesty and the moral courage to take our side any more.
That's what has changed. Thank God I'm retired.
But then the Services were taken over by the civilian accountants. We were no longer understood, trusted, valued and looked after by those we work for. We were still expected to put up with all the traditional b*ggering about, the inconvenience and instability for our families, but conditions of service and quality of life were steadily eroded to save pennies and the petty rules and regulations applied with no deference to common sence. And when we have to do our job and fight, the media hover over us like vultures, applying fluffy civilian standards to military action, so God help us if we take the gloves off. And our masters haven't the honesty and the moral courage to take our side any more.
That's what has changed. Thank God I'm retired.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TBSG,
I you got your fluffy backside out from BFG into the chaos of reality you would see that things within Uk land forces are indeed in melt down. I served in BFG for a while and my god I would love to return to the land of plenty.
But BFG like any holiday posting is just that HOLIDAY and not quite what the rest of us are putting up with. No NHS to farm soldiers off to etc.
I am sure that some people will be happy with the way they are being treated, but the vast majority of armed forces are continually faced with cuts, increased work load, poor man -management and lack of support from on top.
So I look forward to your situation remaining good with a large cheap quarter, family medical care and a normal lifestyle when you return to UK. Comical........ your in for such a rude awakening dear chap!!
PP
I you got your fluffy backside out from BFG into the chaos of reality you would see that things within Uk land forces are indeed in melt down. I served in BFG for a while and my god I would love to return to the land of plenty.
But BFG like any holiday posting is just that HOLIDAY and not quite what the rest of us are putting up with. No NHS to farm soldiers off to etc.
I am sure that some people will be happy with the way they are being treated, but the vast majority of armed forces are continually faced with cuts, increased work load, poor man -management and lack of support from on top.
So I look forward to your situation remaining good with a large cheap quarter, family medical care and a normal lifestyle when you return to UK. Comical........ your in for such a rude awakening dear chap!!
PP
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Up North
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The grass is definitely greener on the civvy side...in parts. It is correct to point out that private sector pensions have gone down the toilet. Perhaps the powers-that-be belief that, if they screw up civvy street enough, they can screw up the Armed Forces as well, as long as they don't go too far.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Between the devil and the deep blue sea
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PP,
"Fluffy backside" vs "Chaos of reality"? My reality is op tours and more op tours. With some exercises in between. The Germany of today is not the Germany you seem to recall. I have spent far more time away during this tour than I have before. The 3 armoured brigades seem to be taking their fair share of the operational commitments in the desert. Fluffy? - I wish. All the things you complain about exist to varying degrees here, just as they exist to varying degrees across the whole of Defence. However, my point was that life as a civvy is not a bed of roses (with respect to JesstheDog's view) - different cr@p, same quanitities. Only without a uniform.
For my money, the media are significantly responsible for the public perception of the military, although it is interesting to note that the actual view the public hold of us is far better than you might expect from recent headlines. See the recent Army Presentation Team roadshow reports for more - very reassuring.
Harder work these days? Probably. Fewer opportunities for fun? Maybe. As bad as you say? Definitely not.
"Fluffy backside" vs "Chaos of reality"? My reality is op tours and more op tours. With some exercises in between. The Germany of today is not the Germany you seem to recall. I have spent far more time away during this tour than I have before. The 3 armoured brigades seem to be taking their fair share of the operational commitments in the desert. Fluffy? - I wish. All the things you complain about exist to varying degrees here, just as they exist to varying degrees across the whole of Defence. However, my point was that life as a civvy is not a bed of roses (with respect to JesstheDog's view) - different cr@p, same quanitities. Only without a uniform.
For my money, the media are significantly responsible for the public perception of the military, although it is interesting to note that the actual view the public hold of us is far better than you might expect from recent headlines. See the recent Army Presentation Team roadshow reports for more - very reassuring.
Harder work these days? Probably. Fewer opportunities for fun? Maybe. As bad as you say? Definitely not.
The Public's Perception
There seems to be a lot of mention across the threads about how the public view the forces. Not least that the public's 'perception' of you guys and gals has gone south recently.
As an ex mil civvy, reasonably tuned in to military stuff in the news and in general, I can tell you that I don't see it.
I don't think civvies think about it, frankly, and certainly not enough to affect your current lot one way or another. By that I mean that even if we think your sh1t is toothpaste, this crowd of snakeoil salesmen we have in charge would still be 'leaning' you.
CG
As an ex mil civvy, reasonably tuned in to military stuff in the news and in general, I can tell you that I don't see it.
I don't think civvies think about it, frankly, and certainly not enough to affect your current lot one way or another. By that I mean that even if we think your sh1t is toothpaste, this crowd of snakeoil salesmen we have in charge would still be 'leaning' you.
CG
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Public Perception
We shouldn't be too surprised about how the public view us - I recall seeing an opinion poll during a recent general election campaign and noting that the public rated the importance of the Armed Forces somewhere at the bottom of the list, just below animal rights. Mind you - that was before 9/11.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Families have to tolerate a huge amount supporting us in our jobs. For me it came as a big shock to my system when, after 34 years of marriage and loyal camp-following, She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed turned round after yet another long det [average 30+weeks away per annum] and asked when we were going to get a life.
She married into the Forces [she, herself, left on marriage] and we had a fantastic time, accepting all that went with it. However, over the years there has been a steady erosion of all that compensated for the bad. I am not necessarily talking about basic pay; continued cutting of services, allowances, concessions, manpower et al has taken the shine out of being part of a military elite [as I viewed the British Military measured against the rest of the world].
Now the Britmil is just another job, and continued additional demands are made of us without the tools or compensation that keeps this thing called morale going. Yes, there is still the adrenilin rush of the fighting ops, but that rush is now being dulled by continued sniping by the fluffy huggy PC brigade and the distinct lack of guts displayed by those at high level who should be telling our President and cronies that enough is enough - either put up or shut up.
Our Servicemen should be pampered [for want of a better word] to some degree on ops; for example, there is no excuse for those on sustained ops to be given facilities so basic that you would be prosecuted in the UK for keeping animals in such conditions. That we get on with it without complaining speaks volumes for the quality of the soldier in the street, and that may be the root of the problem - middle commanders are often more interested in looking after their careers than making a stand and saying 'can't be done without...'
I know, I have the same battles now that I am outside, working in a Government funded environment, where ministerial decrees are invariably made without thought, consultation with the commanders in the field and without increased manpower and funding in the right places to make it work without it causing grief to those at the sharp end.
But I am afraid I don't know what the answer is; there has got to be a root change in attitudes, and acceptance that the Armed Forces must be treated as a special case and not subjected to normal business practices, etc. Control of the Forces must be taken out of the hands of the accountants - they should be very subserviant to the sharp end. The support that has been destroyed over the years must be re-instated - learn how the Americans treat their Servicemen would be a start. And so on.
She married into the Forces [she, herself, left on marriage] and we had a fantastic time, accepting all that went with it. However, over the years there has been a steady erosion of all that compensated for the bad. I am not necessarily talking about basic pay; continued cutting of services, allowances, concessions, manpower et al has taken the shine out of being part of a military elite [as I viewed the British Military measured against the rest of the world].
Now the Britmil is just another job, and continued additional demands are made of us without the tools or compensation that keeps this thing called morale going. Yes, there is still the adrenilin rush of the fighting ops, but that rush is now being dulled by continued sniping by the fluffy huggy PC brigade and the distinct lack of guts displayed by those at high level who should be telling our President and cronies that enough is enough - either put up or shut up.
Our Servicemen should be pampered [for want of a better word] to some degree on ops; for example, there is no excuse for those on sustained ops to be given facilities so basic that you would be prosecuted in the UK for keeping animals in such conditions. That we get on with it without complaining speaks volumes for the quality of the soldier in the street, and that may be the root of the problem - middle commanders are often more interested in looking after their careers than making a stand and saying 'can't be done without...'
I know, I have the same battles now that I am outside, working in a Government funded environment, where ministerial decrees are invariably made without thought, consultation with the commanders in the field and without increased manpower and funding in the right places to make it work without it causing grief to those at the sharp end.
But I am afraid I don't know what the answer is; there has got to be a root change in attitudes, and acceptance that the Armed Forces must be treated as a special case and not subjected to normal business practices, etc. Control of the Forces must be taken out of the hands of the accountants - they should be very subserviant to the sharp end. The support that has been destroyed over the years must be re-instated - learn how the Americans treat their Servicemen would be a start. And so on.
