Near-miss in the UK, US jet crews criticised
From what I remember of the day, Valley was the only airfield south of 55N that was blue. EVERYWHERE else was green or worse, hence Valley as the div.
As far as separation is concerned, opinions differed between the CAT and OAT aircrews as to what the separation was. Vertical separation was unmeasurable as the F15s, for whatever reason, were not transponding. All I'll say is that it caused a few you-know-what's to pucker!
Lots of problems for both aircrew and Lakenheath ATC to think about
As far as separation is concerned, opinions differed between the CAT and OAT aircrews as to what the separation was. Vertical separation was unmeasurable as the F15s, for whatever reason, were not transponding. All I'll say is that it caused a few you-know-what's to pucker!
Lots of problems for both aircrew and Lakenheath ATC to think about
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? it is in the civilian world
These F15 crews, for whatever reason, were in a no-sh*t fuel emergency state & waited too long to declare anything.
As for second guessing their use of Valley as the div, I think that's a bit offside. Typically, the unit will nominate the div based on forecast weather - so the crew walks out with that. They're free to divert elsewhere should real-world requirements dictate, but most will use their primary unless there's a reason not to. I'm sure if the weather was CAVOK, they'd have gone next door to Mildenhall or Marham and not overflown any other suitable field - notice they asked for the WX at Cottesmore and Wittering, but nobody gave it to them...
Yes, lots of errors here, many players, but laying it all at the feet of the crew seems a bit cynical in this case...
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I saw this incident actually occur. The F15s set course for Valley direct after not being able to make their approach at Lakenheath. However, Lakenheath to Valley crosses that large piece of CAS (The Alphas). Whatever went on at LKH ATC is obviously a factor, but the crews tried to cross CAS in the climb to high level without speaking to anyone. It is only (probably) when they had all these contacts (airliners!) on their radar that they called Mil ATC. There are mitigating factors here but surely to attempt to cross a busy piece of airspace in this manner (without speaking to someone) is both poor airmanship and dangerous to not just the crews of the fighters, but other airspace users?
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Originally Posted by Capt. Tango
Nearest divert.... RAF Valley......???
Focks....
Depending upon fuel state....it could have felt like it was a very long way!
Hurricane Katrina....which only damaged parts of three states...devastated an area equal to that of all of the UK to put things into perspective.
Depending upon fuel state....it could have felt like it was a very long way!
Hurricane Katrina....which only damaged parts of three states...devastated an area equal to that of all of the UK to put things into perspective.
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Originally Posted by standby!
...but the crews tried to cross CAS in the climb to high level without speaking to anyone. It is only (probably) when they had all these contacts (airliners!) on their radar that they called Mil ATC. There are mitigating factors here but surely to attempt to cross a busy piece of airspace in this manner (without speaking to someone) is both poor airmanship and dangerous to not just the crews of the fighters, but other airspace users?
If they'd have declared a fuel emergency with Lakenheath, they may have been provided priority ahead of the C model...
All second-guessing on my part.
If I recall the day correctly, I was sent to the hold whilst the Eagles were recovered...
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Could someone be kind enough to tell me why mode C is not mandatory for all military aircraft in the UK. In times of conflict it is clearly different but in peace time it surely would not detract from any training exercise, would it?
Thanks
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This will sound harsh, but having read the AAIB report, I would be concerned about letting these cowboys cross the country in a car, never mind an F15. Let's stop making excuses for them, they came damned close to a mid-air with a passenger jet. There are no valid excuses for what went on, and as for the lack of Mode C/ACAS/TCAS etc, anyone care to ask on what the basis the MoD/USAF etc makes its decisions on this ?
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The formation lead screwed up by ignoring or re-briefing the initial Bingo call. The Bingo call should have resulted in an instant knock-it-off and rtb.
The Lalenheath ATC was obviously under severe pressure when they recovered.
The SORF screwed up by not more effectively liaising with ATC to sort priorities.
Why did mode C disappear before they entered CAS, only to re-appear after they cleared the airways structure?
Why did they not declare an emergency and squawk 7700 with London when it became clear that London did not know of their parilous fuel state?
Why were the crews not more familiar with British ATC procedures and terminology?
Sounds like a cowboy outfit that lacked a grip in the orginisational front...
If a Britmil crew had screwed up to this extent in the States, the wrath of God would have descended upon them PDQ.
The Lalenheath ATC was obviously under severe pressure when they recovered.
The SORF screwed up by not more effectively liaising with ATC to sort priorities.
Why did mode C disappear before they entered CAS, only to re-appear after they cleared the airways structure?
Why did they not declare an emergency and squawk 7700 with London when it became clear that London did not know of their parilous fuel state?
Why were the crews not more familiar with British ATC procedures and terminology?
Sounds like a cowboy outfit that lacked a grip in the orginisational front...
If a Britmil crew had screwed up to this extent in the States, the wrath of God would have descended upon them PDQ.
I should just point out that it was not just mode C that dropped out, it was ALL secondary radar information. Although the report said that they could provide no explanation for it, I'm sorry but there's only two ways you can totally lose that information. Either the transponder broke (for a short period before un-breaking) or it was switched off (accidentally or deliberately). Either way around, without that information, TCAS on the airliner could not work, nor could the short-term conflict alert used by the civil ATCOs. The SSR information re-appeared when the F15 crew offered to squawk emergency.
As far as declaring emergencies are concerned, as US Herk alluded to, declaring emergencies is more of a difficulty for our American cousins than it is for our guys. Once they are on the ground they get put through the wringer about why they did this, that, and the other. Educationally, the message is always put over to them that if they tell people then they'll get priority over everyone. Unfortunately, the education either gets ignored or gets overruled by American aircrew training.
As far as declaring emergencies are concerned, as US Herk alluded to, declaring emergencies is more of a difficulty for our American cousins than it is for our guys. Once they are on the ground they get put through the wringer about why they did this, that, and the other. Educationally, the message is always put over to them that if they tell people then they'll get priority over everyone. Unfortunately, the education either gets ignored or gets overruled by American aircrew training.
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I'd be willing to bet the loss of transponder was simple confusion on the Eagle's part as they switched back & forth between who was lead, who was squawking, ATC confusion, etc.
Remember, we have the luxury of being sat in front of a glowing phosphor (or LCD if yer more modern
) screen, with a cool beverage at hand, & the wife rubbing your shoulders (OK, last one was a bit wishful thinking!
) dissecting a written report with nearly all of the facts and able to trade banter and re-attack as we learn more. Our Eagle mates, on the other hand, were probably quite concerned about their fuel state, agitated with ATC, & doing what they thought was the best COA given the situation all whilst doing standard 3D, high-speed mental gymnastics...
Again, no excuses, simplest explanation is usually the most correct...
Remember, we have the luxury of being sat in front of a glowing phosphor (or LCD if yer more modern
) screen, with a cool beverage at hand, & the wife rubbing your shoulders (OK, last one was a bit wishful thinking! ) dissecting a written report with nearly all of the facts and able to trade banter and re-attack as we learn more. Our Eagle mates, on the other hand, were probably quite concerned about their fuel state, agitated with ATC, & doing what they thought was the best COA given the situation all whilst doing standard 3D, high-speed mental gymnastics...Again, no excuses, simplest explanation is usually the most correct...
Westie....relax....Father knows best now!
Take a sweep through the ATC forum now and then and read the comments about Brits in the USA...countered by the Spams in the UK. Seems pilots of any ilk outside their home turf know naught.
Of course we don't know what the back seaters were doing as they say here...Navs being baggage in the Ace's minds. Perhaps they were doing some traffic spotting by radar or something exciting like the NYT Crossword.
Take a sweep through the ATC forum now and then and read the comments about Brits in the USA...countered by the Spams in the UK. Seems pilots of any ilk outside their home turf know naught.
Of course we don't know what the back seaters were doing as they say here...Navs being baggage in the Ace's minds. Perhaps they were doing some traffic spotting by radar or something exciting like the NYT Crossword.
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If a Britmil crew had screwed up to this extent in the States, the wrath of God would have descended upon them PDQ.
The US vs UK vs US vs UK willy waving is not relevant for this thread (start another if you want to debate that subject). UK crews screw up, at home and abroad, on occasion. US crews screw up, at home and abroad, on occasion. So it's a draw.
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Well said PPrune Radar.
On Red Flag, the rule was that one bust of Dreamland was the final warning. I know of several US crews who had their bags packed and deposited at the main gate, ready for their overland journey home. Jet was confiscated awaiting collection by the unit concerned [by a different crew]. Not good for careers, I would have thought...
I can't remember if there were any busts by RAF crews.
On Red Flag, the rule was that one bust of Dreamland was the final warning. I know of several US crews who had their bags packed and deposited at the main gate, ready for their overland journey home. Jet was confiscated awaiting collection by the unit concerned [by a different crew]. Not good for careers, I would have thought...
I can't remember if there were any busts by RAF crews.
