Tell me this isn't true?
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The thread has descended into a battle of prams and toys - an unsavoury slanging match which we do not allow on PPRuNe. Please keep to the topic.
There seems more to come on the subject after the weekend.
PPP
There seems more to come on the subject after the weekend.
PPP
Last edited by PPRuNe Pop; 4th Feb 2006 at 22:39.
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Originally Posted by SirToppamHat
Firstly, I have no comment about the specific issue being debated here - it is not my Mess and I know nothing of the painting, whether or not it has been removed, and if so why or who was involved.
As for Nigger's Grave, the stone and railings are still in place and were in better condition than the hangar (and offices) last time I looked a couple of weeks ago. Of course whether the dog is actually buried there is the subject of some conjecture...
I am not sure what Northern Circuit was refering to, but if it was a suggestion for a 2ndry duty, NO THANKS.
STH
As for Nigger's Grave, the stone and railings are still in place and were in better condition than the hangar (and offices) last time I looked a couple of weeks ago. Of course whether the dog is actually buried there is the subject of some conjecture...
I am not sure what Northern Circuit was refering to, but if it was a suggestion for a 2ndry duty, NO THANKS.
STH
NS
"Immigrants who have been given the right to live here must accept, like it or not, that our country is our country and we, for the most part, like it the way it is. If they don't like it or us they have the answer in their own hands. But they have to know that that answer is not to tell us what is right or wrong with our culture and our history. Especially our history."
How about white Brits who are uncomfortable with aspects of our culture and history?
How about those coloured immigrants who settled here after fighting for us? Or the relatives of those coloured immigrants who died fighting for us? Many Jamaicans, Africans, Indians (Hindu, Moslem and Sikh), and even Palestinians laid down their lives for us.
And isn't the whole point about this sceptred Isle that it is supposed to be adaptable, flexible, sensitive and welcoming, adapting to incorporate successive waves of immigration? Do we really want to 'make a stand' and draw a line over our rights to use offensive language?
I doubt they'd mind about the painting over-much, but they do have a right to do so, and it would only be polite and respectful to pay attention to complaints like this particular SNCO's. I'm sure that some British compromise can be arrived at, even if it's modifying the caption to read "Wing Commander Gibson and his faithful dog, then named 'Nigger'.
How about white Brits who are uncomfortable with aspects of our culture and history?
How about those coloured immigrants who settled here after fighting for us? Or the relatives of those coloured immigrants who died fighting for us? Many Jamaicans, Africans, Indians (Hindu, Moslem and Sikh), and even Palestinians laid down their lives for us.
And isn't the whole point about this sceptred Isle that it is supposed to be adaptable, flexible, sensitive and welcoming, adapting to incorporate successive waves of immigration? Do we really want to 'make a stand' and draw a line over our rights to use offensive language?
I doubt they'd mind about the painting over-much, but they do have a right to do so, and it would only be polite and respectful to pay attention to complaints like this particular SNCO's. I'm sure that some British compromise can be arrived at, even if it's modifying the caption to read "Wing Commander Gibson and his faithful dog, then named 'Nigger'.
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Jackonicko,
I hope that when "these" people finally take over the running of your sceptred Isle they are as considerate of your wishes as you are of theirs - the track record is not good!
GAGS
E86
I hope that when "these" people finally take over the running of your sceptred Isle they are as considerate of your wishes as you are of theirs - the track record is not good!
GAGS
E86
Last time i watched the movie, the dog was there, but it's name had been (poorly) re-dubbed as "Nipper". We can't change history,so we shouldn't try and hide these things. Much better to leave it alone and explain how thing's have changed.
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It is my understanding that messes are run along pseudo-democratic lines. At the next mess meeting call a vote. If more members want the painting removed than want to keep it remove it, if more members want it kept then keep it. Why simply because this issue has some connection with race do all the rules have to go out the window?
I can't remember who said it and I don't want to reread the thread but the comment about believing in equality, no caveats is in my opinion spot on. It would I think remove the worrying increase in popularity for the far right without which the bigots who are integral to the running of such organisations would have no power base and will hopeully fade away. Am I oversimplifying things and being hopelessly optomistic?
I can't remember who said it and I don't want to reread the thread but the comment about believing in equality, no caveats is in my opinion spot on. It would I think remove the worrying increase in popularity for the far right without which the bigots who are integral to the running of such organisations would have no power base and will hopeully fade away. Am I oversimplifying things and being hopelessly optomistic?
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WRONG! Whilst the messes are run along democratic lines, this is most definitely NOT a subject that would be put to a vote - that would be like all the mess members having a vote on calling all black men 'niggers'. If the majority voted 'for', then thereafter it would be the rule. You cannot contravene any military or civil law or procedure just because you are effectively a private club.
The only way for this to be resolved is for the station Executive to decide whether or not the painting is racially offensive. The will be much consultation with EO people, no doubt at a very high level, before the Staish announces his final decision.
Like everything else administrative in this gutless Air Force, he'll probably be forced to roll over and allow the fluffy huggy brigade to have their way - as usual.
The only way for this to be resolved is for the station Executive to decide whether or not the painting is racially offensive. The will be much consultation with EO people, no doubt at a very high level, before the Staish announces his final decision.
Like everything else administrative in this gutless Air Force, he'll probably be forced to roll over and allow the fluffy huggy brigade to have their way - as usual.
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But there is no law being contravened. What the dog's name was is an irrefutable historical fact. There is no intention to be offensive that's perhaps the key difference witht eh scenario that FJJP outlines.
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If the dog had been given a different name or had not been run over, none of this would be an issue.
However, we are where we are....
It's not the "N-word" name of the dog that is offensive, it is the fact that the same word has been used millions of times to abuse people somehow perceived as of lesser value.
Most of us will feel some faint embarrasment whenever this anachronistic subject is raised as we can see all sides of the argument. However, there are those who either wish to use the dog's name as a bizarre and slightly sinister rallying cry for all that is perceived to be British, and there are also those who wish to rewrite history and probably exhume the dog as well.
I prefer the majority position, and surely some civilised solution can be developed, perhaps by rehanging the painting and by omitting the dog's name. We are supposed to be polite and considerate of the feelings of others, after all.
However, we are where we are....
It's not the "N-word" name of the dog that is offensive, it is the fact that the same word has been used millions of times to abuse people somehow perceived as of lesser value.
Most of us will feel some faint embarrasment whenever this anachronistic subject is raised as we can see all sides of the argument. However, there are those who either wish to use the dog's name as a bizarre and slightly sinister rallying cry for all that is perceived to be British, and there are also those who wish to rewrite history and probably exhume the dog as well.
I prefer the majority position, and surely some civilised solution can be developed, perhaps by rehanging the painting and by omitting the dog's name. We are supposed to be polite and considerate of the feelings of others, after all.
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Jess
Yes we are supposed to be polite and consider the feelings of others but the pendulum has swung to far the other way. Consider if some cartoons of Jesus had offended me at Christmas, and there were many about, and should I have staged a protest outside a Catholic church with others holding banners inciting others to kill non-Christians I would have been arrested and charged. So how come it's ok for some sections of our community to stand outside Mosques doing exactly that whilst a benevolent and smiling police force look on??
I was once in a briefing when a nutty professor from Qinetiq used the "N" word as in the woodpile example. I was of course sat next to a colleague who was coloured. He and I and several others took offence to the statement and he made his feelings well known. Actually I really wished at that moment that I really hadn’t been there!! The Prof apologised of course but the damage was done and my colleague took the matter further.
As for the painting and the dog, I believe that my colleague from that briefing WOULD find it offensive and in that case if he objected someone would get it in the neck for sure. That’s life!
Yes we are supposed to be polite and consider the feelings of others but the pendulum has swung to far the other way. Consider if some cartoons of Jesus had offended me at Christmas, and there were many about, and should I have staged a protest outside a Catholic church with others holding banners inciting others to kill non-Christians I would have been arrested and charged. So how come it's ok for some sections of our community to stand outside Mosques doing exactly that whilst a benevolent and smiling police force look on??
I was once in a briefing when a nutty professor from Qinetiq used the "N" word as in the woodpile example. I was of course sat next to a colleague who was coloured. He and I and several others took offence to the statement and he made his feelings well known. Actually I really wished at that moment that I really hadn’t been there!! The Prof apologised of course but the damage was done and my colleague took the matter further.
As for the painting and the dog, I believe that my colleague from that briefing WOULD find it offensive and in that case if he objected someone would get it in the neck for sure. That’s life!
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The "us and them" arguments are totally redundant in this thread, and I have been embarassed to read some of them. This SNCO is a serving member of the RAF and is, by any standards, one of "us". If he has a complaint he has a right for it to be heard every bit as much as everyone else has a right to disagree. You might think that the painting should stay - I do - but don't reduce this to the sort of proto-xenophobic arguments better left to a BNP forum.
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I've spent some time thinking of what Nigger would say of all this......
The injustice, the PC gone mad, the removal of the painting, his right to be remembered as part of the service and it's history.
What we would give just to have him back for a few moments, to defend himself and make his case ? I can picture it now, all the RAF top brass present, along with a couple of holding officers to serve the drinks, as the latest technology brings him back to life. What, indeed, would he say ?
Probably "Woof", p1$$ and $h!t in the corner and slobber over CAS, and p!ss again on the holdy as he cleaned up the mess.
The injustice, the PC gone mad, the removal of the painting, his right to be remembered as part of the service and it's history.
What we would give just to have him back for a few moments, to defend himself and make his case ? I can picture it now, all the RAF top brass present, along with a couple of holding officers to serve the drinks, as the latest technology brings him back to life. What, indeed, would he say ?
Probably "Woof", p1$$ and $h!t in the corner and slobber over CAS, and p!ss again on the holdy as he cleaned up the mess.
Slightly off topic but following
,
I cannot help but think that it's sad that what was, I'm sure, an unintentional, (if unacceptable), slip of the tongue could not be resolved by an immediate apology. Are we really slipping so far down the American path that everyone must have their pound of flesh?
Edited for appalling tooping
The Prof apologised of course but the damage was done and my colleague took the matter further.
I cannot help but think that it's sad that what was, I'm sure, an unintentional, (if unacceptable), slip of the tongue could not be resolved by an immediate apology. Are we really slipping so far down the American path that everyone must have their pound of flesh?
Edited for appalling tooping
Last edited by Flap62; 5th Feb 2006 at 14:34.
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Flap 62
He refused to accept the public apology and refused to shake hands and yes it was unintentional.
Tablet
How typical that any one who should want to discuss the us and them, or the changing face of religion or how many immigrants we have today is always branded a racist of BNP proportions.
The end of free speech..
He refused to accept the public apology and refused to shake hands and yes it was unintentional.
Tablet
How typical that any one who should want to discuss the us and them, or the changing face of religion or how many immigrants we have today is always branded a racist of BNP proportions.
The end of free speech..
An emotive issue for sure and there are truths on both sides of the argument, but where do you draw the line?
Are we no longer to use the term ‘subordinate rank’, heaven forbid that someone should be referred to as lesser or inferior in these modern PC times.
Should we also remove the word 'slave' from all hydraulic schematics, how about we tear out all the pages in the mess library that contain words that could be offensive to others, where will it all end?
Are we no longer to use the term ‘subordinate rank’, heaven forbid that someone should be referred to as lesser or inferior in these modern PC times.
Should we also remove the word 'slave' from all hydraulic schematics, how about we tear out all the pages in the mess library that contain words that could be offensive to others, where will it all end?
I really don't like the way this thread is heading..... Something of the BNP about it, I regret to opine...
Honestly chaps, the only way ahead is to convince the mate who took such offence to view the whole thing in its historical context. Such as letting him know that although the Slobrador's name was considered an affectionate term for a loyal friend over half a century ago, nowadays the RAF wouldn't dream of countenancing such a thing...
Look towards the positive, don't just make silly points about a word which is completely unacceptable in present day usage.
Apart from which, I understand that Gibbo's dog was actually rather a pain in the ar$e for many at the time!
Honestly chaps, the only way ahead is to convince the mate who took such offence to view the whole thing in its historical context. Such as letting him know that although the Slobrador's name was considered an affectionate term for a loyal friend over half a century ago, nowadays the RAF wouldn't dream of countenancing such a thing...
Look towards the positive, don't just make silly points about a word which is completely unacceptable in present day usage.
Apart from which, I understand that Gibbo's dog was actually rather a pain in the ar$e for many at the time!
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Agree with Onan here.
It probably didn't occur to Gibson or his white schoolboy friends that the dog's name was offensive, because of the unconcious racism of the time. But the word was derogative even in the 1940 era, intended to signify a lower form of humanity (hence its habitual use in C19th century British India, and in the United States for very much longer).
Was the problem the picture itself, or the caption?
And you have to ask yourself whether the complainant was responding to the picture per se, or the ongoing culture they have faced during their career?
It probably didn't occur to Gibson or his white schoolboy friends that the dog's name was offensive, because of the unconcious racism of the time. But the word was derogative even in the 1940 era, intended to signify a lower form of humanity (hence its habitual use in C19th century British India, and in the United States for very much longer).
Was the problem the picture itself, or the caption?
And you have to ask yourself whether the complainant was responding to the picture per se, or the ongoing culture they have faced during their career?
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A typical example of the cultural clashes of today is the nomenclature of certain parts of the Tornado in Saudi manuals. For example, it is not acceptable to refer to the 'cross-drive clutch'. It is instead called the 'X-drive clutch'. Similar problem with the fuel cross-feed.
However, those items were named relatively recently and are not significant to the history of anything in particular so why not change the name for a paying customer.
However, don't leave any pork pies in the map case!
However, those items were named relatively recently and are not significant to the history of anything in particular so why not change the name for a paying customer.
However, don't leave any pork pies in the map case!