Ascot 9521 Smoke in cockpit
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On a recent(ish) trail not long after the SAR cover was lifted the consenus was the 5-6 hours in Sea State Puke in a single manner would leave you so drained as to be if not very nearly dead, thenactually dead.
Most of us made this point to our nearest and dearest in order that they have the most ammo for the coroner!
The 'managing Risk' side is becoming a real danger in my opinion: "I'll cut this from my budget, and as long as no one dies before I'm posted I'm laughing!"
Accountants are an evil breed with far, far too much power.
CBA
Most of us made this point to our nearest and dearest in order that they have the most ammo for the coroner!
The 'managing Risk' side is becoming a real danger in my opinion: "I'll cut this from my budget, and as long as no one dies before I'm posted I'm laughing!"
Accountants are an evil breed with far, far too much power.
CBA
I can see some sense in keeping a Nimrod at Lajes at high readiness state, so that it could be on the scene within an hour or so and have sufficient fuel to remain on scene for several hours. If HMFC is really so cash-strapped that it can't afford the Nimrod following the last wave across to Halifax or wherever, then at least it could return to ISK from Lajes once the last wave made landfall in Canada.
But for it to be sitting on the ground in the north of Scotland is next to useless.
Especially in a North Atlantic winter.
But for it to be sitting on the ground in the north of Scotland is next to useless.
Especially in a North Atlantic winter.
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It concerns me that the cut backs both in manpower and equipment will no doubt end with someones death. If we think of it as "in the unlikely event" then sods law says that some poor sod or two will freeze to death in the North Atlantic some day. This may be an acceptable risk to the airships. So much for people being the most important asset. The trail used to be followed, then the SAR aircraft was on standby at Lajes and now it sits on the ground at ISK. So much for giving the FJ dudes the best chance of survival.
I guess it's all about risk management (cash) but it seems that the service to our FJ friends has sadly declined.
God forbid that they would need to sit it out in their single seat liferaft in the Atlantic in mid-winter whilst awaiting help from Kinloss-not really sensible in my book.
SAR, unlikely to be needed you may say but then when it happens.......who'd a thought it.......and it is actually a prime role I believe for the mighty Nimrod-how did their Airships manage to persuade the Operators it was "the way forward"?
God forbid that they would need to sit it out in their single seat liferaft in the Atlantic in mid-winter whilst awaiting help from Kinloss-not really sensible in my book.
SAR, unlikely to be needed you may say but then when it happens.......who'd a thought it.......and it is actually a prime role I believe for the mighty Nimrod-how did their Airships manage to persuade the Operators it was "the way forward"?
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how did their Airships manage to persuade the Operators it was "the way forward"?
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If I was a FJ guy, I would make it my business to find out who made the policy decision, by name; I would try to discover as much info as possible, inc correspondence, meeting dates, etc.
Then I would generate a comprehensive brief, send a copy to ALL the national media and file the details with the rest of the paperwork in the envelope marked 'open in the event of my death' locked in my fire safe.
That would ensure that my widow had enough ammunition to take HMG to the cleaners - it would make my life assurance/investment provision look like insignificant small change.
The bean stealers have no right to make a risk assessment judgement with peoples' lives in peacetime...
Then I would generate a comprehensive brief, send a copy to ALL the national media and file the details with the rest of the paperwork in the envelope marked 'open in the event of my death' locked in my fire safe.
That would ensure that my widow had enough ammunition to take HMG to the cleaners - it would make my life assurance/investment provision look like insignificant small change.
The bean stealers have no right to make a risk assessment judgement with peoples' lives in peacetime...
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I recall being told many years ago that the tankers sometimes had problems making position reports on HF when on trails over the North Atlantic. A good solution used to be to call the Nimrod on VHF/UHF and get them to relay the tankers'/FJ position. Maybe there are other ways of doing this now though (satcom)?
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To provide a little more background to SAR cover by Nimrods for trails, I will detail the procedure that used to be used when we provided airborne cover.
The Nimrod always had to be airborne before any other aircraft, and land after all the others as the aircraft occasionally had the reputation of going u/s and the trail would not proceed without SAR cover.
For a 3 wave trail (worst case option was to have to cover 3 waves with 1 Nimrod), the Nimrod would be airborne first with the plan being to let the 1st wave depart the airfield (Nimrod wasting fuel orbiting the departure airfield). We were then to follow on the basis that the second wave would overtake us (faster TAS). So by the time the 1st wave had made landfall the Nimrod would be positioned between wave 2 and 3.
The worst case scenario was for the 3rd wave to have a problem and for the Nimrod to have to double back to cover an ejection from the 3rd wave. A very smart Nimrod Captain looked in detail at this scenario in the late 90’s. He took a trail brief that he was tasked as SAR cover for, and he calculated (using historic met for that time of year) that, for a leg between Lajes and Halifax for a 3 wave trail, the Nimrod would be lucky to be able to provide 45 mins on-task to cover a 3rd wave ejection at the farthest point from land.
It is extremely difficult to see a man in a single seat dinghy in the Moray Firth in sea state 2-3, so it would be a lot harder in the middle of the North Atlantic (ss>6). For a single seat liferaft the swept width that was used to give a decent probability of detection from 400’ or so was only about 0.25 to 0.5 nm. Consequently, it was very likely for a Nimrod to take longer than 45 mins to find a pilot unless his wingman observed and orbited his splashdown. However, a big fuel consumption for the wingman meant he would probably not have enough fuel to orbit at low level whilst waiting up to 1+ hour for the Nimrod to backtrack; even refuelling at low level from the tanker whilst keeping an eye on your mate in the water would be nigh on impossible.
Therefore, it made sense for the Nimrod to be holding SAR on the ground at Lajes so it could guarantee more on-task time should an ejection occur and give a greater probability that the pilot would be found before the aircraft had to depart the scene at PLE for the nearest airfield.
This was a sensible solution, but to have the Nimrod hold SAR cover at Kinloss when the preferred track for the aircrew was the southerly nearer Lajes (warmer sea temps and more merchant shipping to pick up the guy in the dinghy), than the northerly route nearer Iceland, is barking and purely penny pinching.
WTN
The Nimrod always had to be airborne before any other aircraft, and land after all the others as the aircraft occasionally had the reputation of going u/s and the trail would not proceed without SAR cover.
For a 3 wave trail (worst case option was to have to cover 3 waves with 1 Nimrod), the Nimrod would be airborne first with the plan being to let the 1st wave depart the airfield (Nimrod wasting fuel orbiting the departure airfield). We were then to follow on the basis that the second wave would overtake us (faster TAS). So by the time the 1st wave had made landfall the Nimrod would be positioned between wave 2 and 3.
The worst case scenario was for the 3rd wave to have a problem and for the Nimrod to have to double back to cover an ejection from the 3rd wave. A very smart Nimrod Captain looked in detail at this scenario in the late 90’s. He took a trail brief that he was tasked as SAR cover for, and he calculated (using historic met for that time of year) that, for a leg between Lajes and Halifax for a 3 wave trail, the Nimrod would be lucky to be able to provide 45 mins on-task to cover a 3rd wave ejection at the farthest point from land.
It is extremely difficult to see a man in a single seat dinghy in the Moray Firth in sea state 2-3, so it would be a lot harder in the middle of the North Atlantic (ss>6). For a single seat liferaft the swept width that was used to give a decent probability of detection from 400’ or so was only about 0.25 to 0.5 nm. Consequently, it was very likely for a Nimrod to take longer than 45 mins to find a pilot unless his wingman observed and orbited his splashdown. However, a big fuel consumption for the wingman meant he would probably not have enough fuel to orbit at low level whilst waiting up to 1+ hour for the Nimrod to backtrack; even refuelling at low level from the tanker whilst keeping an eye on your mate in the water would be nigh on impossible.
Therefore, it made sense for the Nimrod to be holding SAR on the ground at Lajes so it could guarantee more on-task time should an ejection occur and give a greater probability that the pilot would be found before the aircraft had to depart the scene at PLE for the nearest airfield.
This was a sensible solution, but to have the Nimrod hold SAR cover at Kinloss when the preferred track for the aircrew was the southerly nearer Lajes (warmer sea temps and more merchant shipping to pick up the guy in the dinghy), than the northerly route nearer Iceland, is barking and purely penny pinching.
WTN
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Am I missing something or are there no locator beacons in the safety equipment anymore?.
I know it was some years ago but an F4 on recovery to UK from Stanley via Ascension only just made Tenerife after a massive fuel leak. The comforting thought for the crew was that a Nimrod was close by.
I know it was some years ago but an F4 on recovery to UK from Stanley via Ascension only just made Tenerife after a massive fuel leak. The comforting thought for the crew was that a Nimrod was close by.
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This question is not meant to be provocative. How many RAF FJ crew have had to be rescued after ejecting over the middle of the North Atlantic, in the past 30 years?
My guess would be very few, if any, and that was probably one of the main factors in the decision to remove airborne SAR cover.
TOG
My guess would be very few, if any, and that was probably one of the main factors in the decision to remove airborne SAR cover.
TOG
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Sadly, totally risk-free employment is unaffordable. That applies to many professions, not just RAF FJ crew.
I, like you, would wish it were otherwise for the sake of that yet to be widowed wife - but it ain't gonna happen.
Anyway you've answered my question. Thank you.
TOG
I, like you, would wish it were otherwise for the sake of that yet to be widowed wife - but it ain't gonna happen.
Anyway you've answered my question. Thank you.
TOG
Alternatively buy some modern safety equipment with a 406mhz beacon in it linked to a GPS module that includes position information as part of the databurst transmission. Then when a satellite picks up the info, the SAR coordination centre for the area will be able to direct shipping straight to the dinghy without any fannying about. Or we could just wait for SARSAT/COSPAS to stop monitoring 243 (and having to wait for 2 passes to confirm the approximate location) and hope the Nimrod doesn't go U/S on start.
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At great risk for using terms like "risk assessment".............
It would be interesting to see the risk assessment (if it exists) that backs up this decision. We now have some figures for VPF (value of prevented fatality) published in JSP550, we can double this figure for a swing wing thing (two crew). The level of risk established during the assessment determines the amount it is reasonable to spend on prevention. If up near the intolreable level, then the disproportionaility multiplier could be up to 10x. This is not my thinking, this is the belief of the HSE and the way that the courts will interpret things, and accepted by MoD. So in crude terms, I suspect you would have to be spending a sh!tload of cash to justify this. Now i'm not aircrew, but I would also suspect that that Nimrod, either on standby, or in the air, gives you at least a sense that someone will be looking out for you should something go wrong, and you probably can't put a value on that.
Safety_Helmut
It would be interesting to see the risk assessment (if it exists) that backs up this decision. We now have some figures for VPF (value of prevented fatality) published in JSP550, we can double this figure for a swing wing thing (two crew). The level of risk established during the assessment determines the amount it is reasonable to spend on prevention. If up near the intolreable level, then the disproportionaility multiplier could be up to 10x. This is not my thinking, this is the belief of the HSE and the way that the courts will interpret things, and accepted by MoD. So in crude terms, I suspect you would have to be spending a sh!tload of cash to justify this. Now i'm not aircrew, but I would also suspect that that Nimrod, either on standby, or in the air, gives you at least a sense that someone will be looking out for you should something go wrong, and you probably can't put a value on that.
Safety_Helmut
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Well it does seem that we all pretty much agree that the new system in place is pretty useless, thanks for your replies, they have made interesting reading.
WTN
You brought back some fond memories of following the trail, if i remember correctly, we used to make landfall just ahead of wave 3, and had waves 1 & 2 on radar for the majority of the trip, with shipping plotted along the route. I can assure the FJ crews that the Nimrod crews didn't take these trips lightly, despite the occasional bit of banter whilst eating a chicken curry.
I believe many of the present Nimrod aircrew probably don't like the idea of not providing a proper service to our FJ chums.
WTN
You brought back some fond memories of following the trail, if i remember correctly, we used to make landfall just ahead of wave 3, and had waves 1 & 2 on radar for the majority of the trip, with shipping plotted along the route. I can assure the FJ crews that the Nimrod crews didn't take these trips lightly, despite the occasional bit of banter whilst eating a chicken curry.
I believe many of the present Nimrod aircrew probably don't like the idea of not providing a proper service to our FJ chums.
Well done to all, but what are you doing PPRuNing while on a det Tonks!
Ah, of course, you're in Lajes where there is so much to do! Have a Super Bock for me!
PS. The steak house is called Marcellino's.
Ah, of course, you're in Lajes where there is so much to do! Have a Super Bock for me!
PS. The steak house is called Marcellino's.
And a mighty fine steak house it is too! 'Portuguese steak' thoroughly recommended!
There's also a country restaurant run (predictably enough) by a friend of Ten Percent Carlos. Garlic prawns like small sea monsters - wonderful! And 10% Carlos will arrange a very cheap coach to take you there and back as well, thanks to another of his contacts!
There's also a country restaurant run (predictably enough) by a friend of Ten Percent Carlos. Garlic prawns like small sea monsters - wonderful! And 10% Carlos will arrange a very cheap coach to take you there and back as well, thanks to another of his contacts!
Pilot Officer PPRuNe
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Dan,
The steak house is still good, and the hotels have improved somewhat!!! Though after 6 days we had had enough of the place.
The only reason I could post down-route was that the co had a very Gucci phone with the WWW on it.... dam cleaver
Not sure what will happen to the old Jag we left behind... part of the new gate they are building at the base, or perhaps Carlos will sell it for scrap
Will email you soon Dan....
Tonks
The steak house is still good, and the hotels have improved somewhat!!! Though after 6 days we had had enough of the place.
The only reason I could post down-route was that the co had a very Gucci phone with the WWW on it.... dam cleaver
Not sure what will happen to the old Jag we left behind... part of the new gate they are building at the base, or perhaps Carlos will sell it for scrap
Will email you soon Dan....
Tonks