Vulcan Limit
Very interesting. Everyone knows there's more to it than
fly over, drop the bomb, fly away.
But folk rarely explain. Ta.
CG
Do you have to come and kill us all now?
fly over, drop the bomb, fly away.
But folk rarely explain. Ta.
CG
Do you have to come and kill us all now?
PN and others (and BEagle, I suppose), thanks. Despite all of the banter that you've entertained us with, I guess we'll never know just how fortunate we are that you never had to put your skills to use.
Or cuff it, for that matter.
Or cuff it, for that matter.
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Pontius, I remember it well; when it came to do the calcs, I was glad I faced forward!
The modern bomber has it easy - put the cross-hairs on the tgt on the tv screen, select automatic and the computer does the rest for a boring DH every time. Computer fails? Even easier - turn round and come home!
No system available for manual reversion of any kind...
How many ways of releasing bombs from the flatiron?
The modern bomber has it easy - put the cross-hairs on the tgt on the tv screen, select automatic and the computer does the rest for a boring DH every time. Computer fails? Even easier - turn round and come home!
No system available for manual reversion of any kind...
How many ways of releasing bombs from the flatiron?
Well, we had the SFOM sight and Time Delay Unit from the co-pilot's bomb release - which was all but useless. My preferred method at low level was to press the centre console bomb release when the target was more or less under the No3 RPM gauge.
Accurate enough for the odd DH - and certainly accurate enough for a bucket of sunshine!
We used the Type 2 (All Aids) attack for preference - He Who Sees Controls! But this did rely upon the Nav Radar being told to wait until we'd overflown the visual IP before giving his steer corrections - we wouldn't select the MFS selector to 'Bomb' until the IP. In poor vis the Nav Radar's information was used, converting to visual only if the co-pilot could see enough to take over the attack visually.
Accurate enough for the odd DH - and certainly accurate enough for a bucket of sunshine!
We used the Type 2 (All Aids) attack for preference - He Who Sees Controls! But this did rely upon the Nav Radar being told to wait until we'd overflown the visual IP before giving his steer corrections - we wouldn't select the MFS selector to 'Bomb' until the IP. In poor vis the Nav Radar's information was used, converting to visual only if the co-pilot could see enough to take over the attack visually.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The best was 'no picture', then 'no shift - LP 6', 'shift but no homing - LP 3A', 'homing no ballistics - LP1B', 'No markers - LP 4?', 'Basic with shift but no markers', and finally 'Basic' with no shift and no markers just a heading marker if lucky.
Oh, and the type 2 (normal), 3 (BS), 5 (T4 bombsight) and 6 (T4 sighting head but no computer).
I make that 11 without all the tactical variants.
Yes, thanks Beags, I forgot the SFOM. One Akrotiri crew swore by radar line, visual ranging whereas the rest of us would do visual line radar ranging. They had a pretty good average on the raft using their method - 300 feet. Then again so did 8 of the other crews at 300 feet. One crew had 280 and the 10th had 320.
Oh, and the type 2 (normal), 3 (BS), 5 (T4 bombsight) and 6 (T4 sighting head but no computer).
I make that 11 without all the tactical variants.
Yes, thanks Beags, I forgot the SFOM. One Akrotiri crew swore by radar line, visual ranging whereas the rest of us would do visual line radar ranging. They had a pretty good average on the raft using their method - 300 feet. Then again so did 8 of the other crews at 300 feet. One crew had 280 and the 10th had 320.
I wouldn't say the modern day aircraft can't go 'rev', FJJP, there are 10 different bombing modes in my current jet. Each of them is practiced regularly to make sure we can use them all accurately, and you may be surprised to find that we can still get very good results with the "rev" modes.
p.s.
Loving the Vulcan dits, I think it was the reason I got into the RAF in the first place after seeing one make my little brother cry at an airshow!
p.s.
Loving the Vulcan dits, I think it was the reason I got into the RAF in the first place after seeing one make my little brother cry at an airshow!
Originally Posted by BEagle
My preferred method at low level was to press the centre console bomb release when the target was more or less under the No3 RPM gauge.
Accurate enough for the odd DH - and certainly accurate enough for a bucket of sunshine!
Accurate enough for the odd DH - and certainly accurate enough for a bucket of sunshine!
Wouldn't a LABS manouevre have been used?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Lyneham Lad,
The best we would have done with the Yellow Sun was a programmed release in the climb, 15 deg in the case of the Vulcan 2.
Was the T4 bombsight ever used in anger? Yes. The Valiant force was not cleared to use the NBS at the time of Suez and all, bar one sqn, used the visual bomb sight. I understand the results were not exactly sparkling. One rumour I heard was that there had been no allowance for stick length. The T4 was fine for point bombing but needed a sighting head correction to release earlier to place the stick on target.
One sqn used the NBS and I am told achieved acceptable results. Setting the stick length was a 'simple' dial up system on the Calc 3 - apart from the Calc 3 not being that easy to access.
The best we would have done with the Yellow Sun was a programmed release in the climb, 15 deg in the case of the Vulcan 2.
Was the T4 bombsight ever used in anger? Yes. The Valiant force was not cleared to use the NBS at the time of Suez and all, bar one sqn, used the visual bomb sight. I understand the results were not exactly sparkling. One rumour I heard was that there had been no allowance for stick length. The T4 was fine for point bombing but needed a sighting head correction to release earlier to place the stick on target.
One sqn used the NBS and I am told achieved acceptable results. Setting the stick length was a 'simple' dial up system on the Calc 3 - apart from the Calc 3 not being that easy to access.
Lyneham Lad, no, we didn't use a LABS manoeuvre. For 2 reasons:
1. The bucket wasn't that big really.
2. It wasn't supposed to go bang until after we'd left the vicinity. Of course, we would never have known if that was just a story made up to give us some hope of surviving....
1. The bucket wasn't that big really.
2. It wasn't supposed to go bang until after we'd left the vicinity. Of course, we would never have known if that was just a story made up to give us some hope of surviving....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Beags, you are of course talking of the little one and not Yellow Sun. It was a BIG B*ST*RD and designed to go bang on impact. The only separation was your speed and time of bomb fall.
LABS was designed so that the Canberra, et al, could deliver an airburst (or groundburst) ballistic bomb from a low level entry rather than a pop-up or straight and level high level manouevre.
A really lulu was the 2D attack designed for the V-s to drop the Red Beard or Violet Club as they could not loft it. Low level entry and a sedate climb to 27 000 feet - wings level following the steering commands all the way.
Way to go!
LABS was designed so that the Canberra, et al, could deliver an airburst (or groundburst) ballistic bomb from a low level entry rather than a pop-up or straight and level high level manouevre.
A really lulu was the 2D attack designed for the V-s to drop the Red Beard or Violet Club as they could not loft it. Low level entry and a sedate climb to 27 000 feet - wings level following the steering commands all the way.
Way to go!
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What sort of accuracy could you normally achieve, both from High Altitude and Low Level when dropping the bomb?
And also, did it really matter how accurate you could drop (except to yourself of course)
Matt
And also, did it really matter how accurate you could drop (except to yourself of course)
Matt
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Laydown would have been close enough to ensure the target would be in the crater - say 200-400 yards.
2H - Popup to 10500 feet was problematical. Initially the data would consistently drop the bomb about 3000 yards long. Bit too far out. The Mk 1 guys, against orders, practised using the automatics. Initially it was thought the Calc 3 could only handle a 3000 fpm climb as this was the 'test' rate of change of height in 'primary check'. It was then discovered that it would have worked in a Lightning as it could handle 50k/min. Accuracy improved to 500-600 yards with the occasional 'low' release. 10500 was supposedly the minimum safe escape release height. If you cocked up the initial POP and climb then . . . some crews dropped in training at 8500 Ooops.
Pre-low level, the high accuracy would have been about 400 yards for a straight and level attack. For an evasive bomb run somewhere between 800 and 2000 yards depending on experience of the crew and, to quote the SOP,
"It is possible that the appearance of the target may be considerably different from that planned due to earlier strikes."
To these accuracies you might also like to consider that Bomber Command research Branch had determined a combat degradation factor of 75% based on WW2 and the Korean War - the pucker factor. I don't know how that worked out for GW 1 or GW 2. Certainly the results in GW 1 looked better than plus 75% degradation.
In comparison, I believe that the US ICBMs were also in the 500 yards area compared with the opposition where their accuracy was said to be in miles.
2H - Popup to 10500 feet was problematical. Initially the data would consistently drop the bomb about 3000 yards long. Bit too far out. The Mk 1 guys, against orders, practised using the automatics. Initially it was thought the Calc 3 could only handle a 3000 fpm climb as this was the 'test' rate of change of height in 'primary check'. It was then discovered that it would have worked in a Lightning as it could handle 50k/min. Accuracy improved to 500-600 yards with the occasional 'low' release. 10500 was supposedly the minimum safe escape release height. If you cocked up the initial POP and climb then . . . some crews dropped in training at 8500 Ooops.
Pre-low level, the high accuracy would have been about 400 yards for a straight and level attack. For an evasive bomb run somewhere between 800 and 2000 yards depending on experience of the crew and, to quote the SOP,
"It is possible that the appearance of the target may be considerably different from that planned due to earlier strikes."
To these accuracies you might also like to consider that Bomber Command research Branch had determined a combat degradation factor of 75% based on WW2 and the Korean War - the pucker factor. I don't know how that worked out for GW 1 or GW 2. Certainly the results in GW 1 looked better than plus 75% degradation.
In comparison, I believe that the US ICBMs were also in the 500 yards area compared with the opposition where their accuracy was said to be in miles.
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I suppose I should be happy that somebody bothered to read my book! I will be including the Aircrew Manual in my new Vulcan book, although this time I should have loads of extra space, so hopefully I can persuade a former Vulcan driver to add his comments at the appropriate places!
