Messing
Re: Messing
Why are messes just about the only form of accomdation that do not provide a towel? Even the shabbiest B&Bs provide at least one. A mess has to launder the linen, just like a hotel, so I don't see that a couple of towels, particularly for visitors, is too much to expect. (Note to Akrotiri - curtains do not count)
On a more positive note, I stayed at Waddington recently and found it to be much better than my (low) expectations. Friendly and helpful staff, reasonable food and amazingly - a towel !!
On a more positive note, I stayed at Waddington recently and found it to be much better than my (low) expectations. Friendly and helpful staff, reasonable food and amazingly - a towel !!
Re: Messing
We all have tales of woe from various messes we have stayed in, I think it is worthwhile mentioning some I have been in that were actually a pleasure...
Chicksands - A beautiful old building with top tasty tucker and freindly staff.
Fort Blockhouse - Basic accom but nice views over Pompey harbour.
St Mawgan - Faceless accom but very helpful staff.
Edinburgh Castle - Fantastic!
Chicksands - A beautiful old building with top tasty tucker and freindly staff.
Fort Blockhouse - Basic accom but nice views over Pompey harbour.
St Mawgan - Faceless accom but very helpful staff.
Edinburgh Castle - Fantastic!
Re: Messing
Ah Chicksands - en suite accommodation (with LOTS of towels, enormous double bed, cable TV, fridge etc) and a reception that sold beer very cheap. Admittedly this was only the transit hotel, but for $1:50 (or thereabouts) - 
. Delights of the rod and gun club of an evening, a great eatery during the day and the bowling alley when all else failed. Shame it was all declared non standard post 1995, but at least they didn't sell the Priory off (but what happened to the ghost?).
. Delights of the rod and gun club of an evening, a great eatery during the day and the bowling alley when all else failed. Shame it was all declared non standard post 1995, but at least they didn't sell the Priory off (but what happened to the ghost?).
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Re: Messing
I think Melchett01 has summed it up pretty well - better than I did !!!! It's all about the constant erosion, the constant battling over the pathetic little things which - to an outsider seem trivial - but to us freezing our bits off or having to ' obey ' downright ridiculous rules is important. Melchett01 is right when he says that the things we used to enjoy about mess life made up for the rest of the crap.......not any more my friends. My last Mess AGM proposed buying ( from our contributions of course) a nice silver C-17 to display on function nights. At approx £700 it semed a bit steep to me, considering we still pay to use the washing machines and dryers - £1 a wash and 20p to have a gnat fart on the corner of your hankie !!!!! And yeah, Confucius - think I will be taking your advice - they can take me to court if they can find a piece of paper with my signature on it.................until then .......where's me angle grinder....?
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Re: Messing
Having taken the advice posted earlier in the thread (got married years ago), and not had the delight of staying in a mess recently, it's depressing to see things much as they were when I was single. Equally irritating/confusing is the lack of consistency across the services over what to expect in the way of facilities/rules®s. Does one pack towel/kettle/battie/wing collar&spats? or just bring cash, jeans and T-shirt? I do love the cut and thrust of building a beer shield around my gro-bag and then debating the relative lack of dress standards with some bluff old cove! As an old fart myself I'm sure it is no way to carry on, but why should I get excited about dress regs these days when there appears to be little pay back from the firm when it comes to maintaining the ethos of mess life/tradition/standards/behaviour etc etc.
Rant over - bah humbug - Happy New Year to one and all!!
Rant over - bah humbug - Happy New Year to one and all!!
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Chicksands Officers' Mess
Aaah, Chicksands. I was there during the rebuild/re-furb and I have to agree with the comments above. It's a wonderful building, reeking in history and the re-furb was done in such a way to bring it up to date (heating, amenities etc) whilst retaining the historical value.
However, there are two major omissions:
1. There is no single room large enough to hold a dining-in night, so you end up in the ridiculous situation of having a formal dinner in three separate rooms!
2. There are not enough rooms in the Mess itself; this has led to SFA being used as Mess overflow accomodation - this is made worse by being poorly looked after and is not a patch on the accomodation in the Mess proper.
An opportunity missed, I feel! It would been so easy to build an additional block to the rear of the Mess whilst the re-furb was being carried out.
Best RAF Mess: Waddington by a country mile.
SBG
However, there are two major omissions:
1. There is no single room large enough to hold a dining-in night, so you end up in the ridiculous situation of having a formal dinner in three separate rooms!
2. There are not enough rooms in the Mess itself; this has led to SFA being used as Mess overflow accomodation - this is made worse by being poorly looked after and is not a patch on the accomodation in the Mess proper.
An opportunity missed, I feel! It would been so easy to build an additional block to the rear of the Mess whilst the re-furb was being carried out.
Best RAF Mess: Waddington by a country mile.
SBG
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Re: Messing
INDEED ! I am going to stop ranting now too !!!! New year and all that. Mind you I do love explaining to the people with 7 creases in their cuff-linked, tie-pinned starched blue shirts that that my gro-bag is MY WORKING DRESS. Childish I know !
Slainte
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Slainte
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Re: Messing
Gainsy,
The bath of course, but there were not enough baths to go round.
Ah, the good old days with lounge suits on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays with sports jackets or blazers at all other times. Remember the look of glee in the anti-room one Saturday morning when Mr Pastry, the Stn Cdr looked in wearing just a pullover. Naturally no one recognised him
but game on and we started taking our jackets off.
No towels? Seem to remember our dark blue breatheren did issue sheets either unless you were a visitor.
The bath of course, but there were not enough baths to go round.
Ah, the good old days with lounge suits on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays with sports jackets or blazers at all other times. Remember the look of glee in the anti-room one Saturday morning when Mr Pastry, the Stn Cdr looked in wearing just a pullover. Naturally no one recognised him
but game on and we started taking our jackets off.No towels? Seem to remember our dark blue breatheren did issue sheets either unless you were a visitor.
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Re: Messing
I remember a 'Green' mess in the 80's where visitors didn't get knife, fork and spoon as they were issued. Unfortunately the light blue had overlooked this. I had done the whole servery getting the food and then realised. Had to eat Spag Bol with two slices of bread, I suppose it is less of a faux pa than using the wrong fork!!!
PA
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Re: Messing
I normally avoid messes but was, against my better judgement, pursuaded to use a mess at Warminster. Wow, back at least 20 years. Bedspread was overall brown with horizontal stripes - remember them?
Standard G-plan furniture circa 60s with the little bedside draw that your early morning tea would slide off. At least they solved that - no tea.
Standard black rexine covered desk with a top carved by generations of pongos chopping maps.
But the real strength was the ablutions. Bath, turn left and door on the right. Toilet, turn left, through firedoors, entrance hall, firedoors and down the next corriodor. Showers, like toilets as far as the hall then turn the other was through more firedoors.
Guess it didn't matter too much, being a pongo transit mess
Next time I am invited to an army mess - no way hozze
Standard G-plan furniture circa 60s with the little bedside draw that your early morning tea would slide off. At least they solved that - no tea.
Standard black rexine covered desk with a top carved by generations of pongos chopping maps.
But the real strength was the ablutions. Bath, turn left and door on the right. Toilet, turn left, through firedoors, entrance hall, firedoors and down the next corriodor. Showers, like toilets as far as the hall then turn the other was through more firedoors.
Guess it didn't matter too much, being a pongo transit mess
Next time I am invited to an army mess - no way hozze
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Re: Messing
Thanks ZH875. Unless I am not reading the link correctly the SLA for a major and above in GRADE1 is £1862 per annum (£35.80 per week). Let us assume the rank of major or equvalent on at least £50k p.a. I dont think that is an unrealistic charge, do you? In civvy street you would not get a bed sit for that and it may be well worse than the mess with in house dining cheaper drinks free tv etc etc. Am I missing something here? Have I mis-read the figures?
Re: Messing
Re the accomodation, the report also states:
" We were told in evidence that, at April 2004, 89 per cent of occupied SLA worldwide
Single charge £24.85 per week
Married unaccompanied charge £18.20 per week.
With the following comment for PAYD:
"PAYD has been “on the horizon” for many years. It is clear from the evidence that there are difficulties to be resolved, not only financial, but in terms of the impact on other areas of Service culture. Having said that, it would be difficult for the Services to reverse the policy at this stage. We look forward to monitoring progress through annual evidence and through our visits and discussions with personnel."
" We were told in evidence that, at April 2004, 89 per cent of occupied SLA worldwide
was below Grade 1 with 49 per cent at the lowest grade (Grade 4). By April 2005,around 7,100 bedspaces are due to be upgraded"
Yes, that is ALMOST HALF of all SLA is at the LOWEST GRADE, with just 11% at Grade 1.
Also, on top of the accomodation charges there is also a Food charge of:
Yes, that is ALMOST HALF of all SLA is at the LOWEST GRADE, with just 11% at Grade 1.
Also, on top of the accomodation charges there is also a Food charge of:
Single charge £24.85 per week
Married unaccompanied charge £18.20 per week.
With the following comment for PAYD:
"PAYD has been “on the horizon” for many years. It is clear from the evidence that there are difficulties to be resolved, not only financial, but in terms of the impact on other areas of Service culture. Having said that, it would be difficult for the Services to reverse the policy at this stage. We look forward to monitoring progress through annual evidence and through our visits and discussions with personnel."
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Re: Messing
free tv etc etc
TV in your room? Paid for by owner along with TV Licence.
No, the points here are mostly well-made. I was always very suspicious when the 'system' dropped the 'Extra Messing' charges and instead introduced PAYD for lunches. In theory, one was supposed to balance the other, but in practice, the PAYD element was massively more than Extra Messing had ever been.
Blah Alert
What I am not convinced about is the actual basis of the charges in messes and the balance between Public and Non-Public. It seems to me that at one stage in the distant past the majority of mess staff wore blue suits, from the Mess Manager to the batting staff - these were paid for from the public purse, but I doubt whether there was any direct link between what livers-in paid and the actual costs. We now have a system where most mess staff are civilians, and in many cases employed as part of the dreaded contractorised system. Under the former arrangements, mess staff were able to be considered as having a war role, which meant that it could be argued that their existence was not due just to the requirements of the mess members. These days, however, the contractor's (mess staff) costs are all too easy to measure and attribute to the users. One of the things I suspect PAYD is attempting to do (amongst a host of things) is redress is the balance between service and payment - adjustments to pay and allowances are not necessarily under the control of PMA (see 'AFPRB'), but introducing other charges via the back door allows a surreptitious increase in charges that is neither seen nor acted on by the AFPRB.
Blah Alert Terminated
One more thing to add - some of those Mess Managers who were originally WOs, and were retained by the likes of SerCo coming up to retirement. The very best of these have continued to run Messes as they always have - standards maintained, JOs 'advised/looked after' (as appropriate!), and the system used for the benefit of the members etc etc (Boulmer is an excellent example of this). It will be interesting to see what happens as these posts are taken up by those with limited or no experience of messes, and with only the contractor to please - I am sure some of you out there have experience of this and stories to tell ...
STH
Edited to correct bad spellin
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 4th Jan 2006 at 07:12.
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Re: Messing
Quote: "PAYD has been “on the horizon” for many years. It is clear from the evidence that there are difficulties to be resolved, not only financial, but in terms of the impact on other areas of Service culture. Having said that, it would be difficult for the Services to reverse the policy at this stage. We look forward to monitoring progress through annual evidence and through our visits and discussions with personnel."
So, having identified that there are financial difficulties and problems with the effect on service culture, we are still pressing ahead with PAYD regardless?
I made the comment some time ago that 'initiatives' like these quickly develop an apparently unstoppable momentum (usually because certain careers have been staked on pushing them though) and in this case, that certainly seems to be true.
At what point do we cry 'uncle' and put a stop to things that are not in the interests of the Service or the individual? I have yet to meet anyone who believes PAYD is an improvement.
SBG
So, having identified that there are financial difficulties and problems with the effect on service culture, we are still pressing ahead with PAYD regardless?
I made the comment some time ago that 'initiatives' like these quickly develop an apparently unstoppable momentum (usually because certain careers have been staked on pushing them though) and in this case, that certainly seems to be true.
At what point do we cry 'uncle' and put a stop to things that are not in the interests of the Service or the individual? I have yet to meet anyone who believes PAYD is an improvement.
SBG
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Re: Messing
STH - it was just an observation from a civilian and I stand corrected on the TV issue. Is it not true though there are other elements that one simply would not get in civilian life? A single, unfurnished room in a multi ocupied house in Lincolnshire costs around £45.00 per week. Shared kitchen, shared bathrooms, no messing on site, laundry down the road, etc, and no security onsite, nowhere to park the car, drunken yobs shouting about at all times of the night, pay a share of the council tax etc. Sorry but it does still seem a great bargain to live in the mess.
Re: Messing
WH
Yes, it may well be true that there are elements you "simply would not get in civillian life" - but we are not in civillian life!! There are also many negative elements to military life that civillians would not put up with, so kindly don't begrudge us a positive aspect.
I think the main thrust of the comments being made here is about the decrease in standards of messes over recent years - no doubt a phrase like "eroding of differentials" might apply in the civillian world!!
Yes, it may well be true that there are elements you "simply would not get in civillian life" - but we are not in civillian life!! There are also many negative elements to military life that civillians would not put up with, so kindly don't begrudge us a positive aspect.
I think the main thrust of the comments being made here is about the decrease in standards of messes over recent years - no doubt a phrase like "eroding of differentials" might apply in the civillian world!!
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Re: Messing
Biggus, I could not agree more about erosion of standards, it is unfortunately rife in all wlks of life. Where the mess is "home" then a high standard really needs to be maintained )and no doubt paid for. I had the impression there were a few complaints about the cost which i though unjustified.
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Re: Messing
Why would a self proclaimed civilian be contributing to a messing thread? Here goes, cue WH telling us about how he used to be in the mob, come on WH what were you? When did you last live in the mess? When did you last have to put up with PAYD? Why do you need to know what the rates are for living in members? Then you have the temerity to start saying that we should shut up and put up making banal comparisons with civvy street. I really couldn't give a monkey's if you think that we are complaining about cost, it really has nothing to do with a "civvy".
This is quite typical of WH though, mincing into the mil aircrew forum, disagreeing with people who know better than him claiming that he only wanted to know the facts, when it is quite clear his real motive was to be inflammatory.
This is quite typical of WH though, mincing into the mil aircrew forum, disagreeing with people who know better than him claiming that he only wanted to know the facts, when it is quite clear his real motive was to be inflammatory.