Airport Charges for Military Helicopter Emergency Flights

[vecvechookattack]

There is a slight difference in the weight of a Cessna and a 10 ton Seaking.

So, if a civvy airfield can charge £8 for a Seaking, then why does Plymouth charge £250?

[jayteeto]

Why should the military get free landing fees at civvie airfields when civvies get charged by the military??
If you don't want to pay, go elsewhere.
Our helicopter had a brdstrike last year and we diverted into liverpool. The engineers arrived within the hour and we were gone soon after. It cost over £200 just to put the engineers through security and the overall bill was MUCH higher. Next time I might land in a field, not as safe, but cheap.

[Whooper5]

Why not charge?

Why should a twisted ankle on Snowdon be covered by the MOD when an 18 month baby with meningitis from a cottage hospital to definitive care is charged to the Hospital Trust? They’re the same flying costs.
Oh, before the ‘we’re not an ambulance’ argument is put; the last place a physician would want a critical patient is the back of a helicopter. If they ask for a helicopter, they need it.

Whooper 5

[SASless]

HELLO!

I politely suggest you lot miss the exact right question....why are you each paying these outrageous fees in the first place? You all pay rates, income tax, and the like to the guvmint. Why are you now having to pay yet again and not small sums at that? Ever stop to consider that most other countries do not have such a system as yours and our taxes are not that much different.

I hate to beat the USA versus UK deal to death...but you guys ought to look westward and at least consider the way we do things here at the western end of the salt water divide.

Consider the simple thing of booking in...booking out you do...call by telephone to get permission to use an airfield,etc. No use of an airport after hours because the tower is closed or the fire brigade is gone for their tea....what sense does that make? You show up to buy fuel and get charged a landing fee...do a touch and go and get done twice...and in a helicopter you might not even touch down but the one time....so wear and tear on the surface is not the issue.

The entire way you finance aviation is simply "crazy"!

Think what it would cost you to drive a car if you did that the way you do your aviation?

[BEagle]

SASless, regrettably the UK government sees General Aviation as either a source of income (through high levels of taxation), a rich man's hobby or as a nuisance. You would be astonished at the restrictions placed upon most of the tatty little GA aerodromes which do manage to survive in the 21st century.

Whereas in the US, GA is seen as a normal method of transportation, local airports are considered an asset and receive substantial local funding.

I delivered a light aeroplane for repainting recently. The painter is based at an ex-WW2 aerodrome with a single short runway - less than half the length of the original. It has no approach aids, lighting or anything other than a single information officer in a VHF-equipped tower, but it is a 'licensed' aerodrome. The aerodrome has extensive and tedious 'noise' routings due to a vociferous, rich horse owner who arrived in the area long after the aerodrome but whose voice influenced the local moaners...

Another pilot followed me in to give me a lift back to my point of departure. He didn't even shut down; all I did was park the aeroplane I'd flown over in, get into the other one and go home.

Excpet for one other thing - to pay a landing fee of $15 for the second aircraft.

No wonder so few people can afford private flying in the UK.

The MoD is even more greedy. The infamous 'Wider Marketing Initiative' now seeks to extract every last penny from the tax payer and even underused military aerodromes now have to charge for approaches and landings by civil aircraft.........

[SASless]

Beags,

Here in the USA, we view aviation infrastructure as a vital part of the "common good" and believe we each gain value from it as taxpayers. That comes from being able to hop onto an airline flight for holiday, business, or not having an airplane fall upon our heads for some reason.

Thus, the FAA is funded from general tax revenues (in general).

I do enjoy the notion the CAA is supposed to make a 6% return on their budget...or is that a wive's tale?

I take a written test...at the FAA office...it is free...no charge.

I take a checkride with an FAA Inspector....it is free...no charge.

I land my airplane at any airport...it is free...no charge.

I use the navaids....it is free...no charge.

I laughed and walked off when I was told what it would cost to renew my UK ATPL. Thank goodness I had that option....unlike you good folk.

[BEagle]

I've just renewed my PPL Examiner authorisation:

'Dummy Skill Test' with CAA-authorised FIE: $200 for ac hire, $260 for the Examiner's fees and $465 to the CAA. I also have to revalidate my FI Rating in 2006; that'll be either $440 plus overnight costs at a 2-day seminar or similar if I choose a Revalidation flight test. Then there are the 6-monthly medicals which everyone over 40 has to have to instruct at PPL level, call that roughly $260 every 6 months....... IMC Rating revalidation? Another $140 to the Examiner and about the same for ac hire.

Yes, the CAA are a non-government organisation and are supposed to make a % on their costs....

As for the recent rise in ac insurance costs thanks to blinkered Eurocracy.....

[Roghead]

Landing fees- great topic.
A few years ago I was sent from Warton in one of our shiny HS125-700's to collect three Government Ministers and three Airships on a mission at the request of the Italian government. We landed at Milano(Malpensa I seem to recall) to be met by the full works of official cars police outriders etc and the Italian Government minder confirmed that no "paperwork" or airfield formalities were necessary. However engine start was refused and Captain instructed to go to the "Tower". We had to pay plus the normal, in triplicate, paperwork to complete. I was trailed around by the Captain of a Swiss Medi-emergency jet (live liver or similar on board) who was getting the same treatment. Banks were closed, insufficient Lire, charge cards not acceptable, nor any other currency. When senior Air Marshal informed said he would "sort it out with the Airport Manager". When we arrived at Mario's office was met by "You no pay - you no go!"
So we had a Lire wrip-round(sp), which was fun particularly from the Ministers, and dully left.
Took ACM **** to Leuchars as a favour to the RAF where he was Guest of Honour at a Summer Ball or similar together with our own Chairman and CEO. Guess what , we were due landing fees.

So, all this means is that the beancounters still have the last word, and whilst I think it's tough for the medi(casa)vac chopper at Plymouth, it remains a sad reflection of perceived values by people who know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

Merry New Year to you all.

[tmmorris]

SASless - even better, I get an FAA PPL issued on the basis of my JAR one - free of charge, thanks to your tax dollars...!

(Yes, I know there's a fee now, but that goes to the CAA, and when I did mine it wasn't necessary)

Tim

[Point0Five]

Come on SASless, if you're going to beat the drum about how the USA supports the "common good and believe we each gain value from it as taxpayers". Why don't you tell us how your health care... is free... no charge?

[SASless]

Point,

What does health care have to do with airport charges?

[Hard Port]

Charges maybe because MOD charges ambulance srvice ie, NHS £5000 for first hour and £1000 per hour or part of for subsequent hours for same flights! Swings and roundabouts.

[[email protected]]

I think that the point of this thread was not that charges were made for landing at Plymouth, but that the charges were made for landing when the airport was shut and did not provide any services (other than a piece of tarmac to land on) at all - no ATC, no lights, no nav, no fuel, no nothing. We have to land at the airport because the hospital LS is too small and Plymouth Hoe is too far away for a critical casualty (I took a cas there in the middle of the night a couple of months ago who had fallen from a cliff and broken his back).
Either all SAR and HEMs flights should be exempt from landing fees (the better option) or the NHS should foot the bill and recoup it from central government.

[Whooper5]

Crab

Why would it be any easier for the NHS to recoup the fees from central government than for the MOD to do the same?

Whooper 5

[vecvechookattack]

Re: Airport Charges for Military Helicopter Emergency Flights

Why should a twisted ankle on Snowdon be covered by the MOD when an 18 month baby with meningitis from a cottage hospital to definitive care is charged to the Hospital Trust? They’re the same flying costs.

because one is a MEDIVAC and the other is a CASEVAC. Different sorties, different charges.

[Whooper5]

Re: Airport Charges for Military Helicopter Emergency Flights

Vecvechookattack

Thanks for your reply.

I’m afraid that I’m not too sure of your terms. I’m aware of “MedRescue” and “Medevac”; with Medrescue being the twisted ankle and Medevac being the 18 month baby. I assume your CASEVAC and my Medrescue are one and the same, please correct me if I am wrong. I have dabbled in CASEVAC although that was a shooting affair.

However, your reply only tells me they have different names, not why one should cost and the other comes free.

Not wishing to imply that charges should be made for the twisted ankle, more wondering why a patient assessed by a senior doctor to require helicopter transport should incur charges when a mobile phone call to 999 from Joe Public is an instant freebie, it would appear to me that someone a long way from SAR operations came up with this.

Thanks again

Whooper 5

[[email protected]]

Re: Airport Charges for Military Helicopter Emergency Flights

Whooper - a medevac flight is a pre-planned one requested by the NHS through ARCC Kinloss when no other means of transporting the patient is viable. The NHS trust must satisfy the ARCC that all other methods of transporting the patient have been explored and that the clinical need of the patient is so great that using a SAR asset is the only way of preserving life.

A med-rescue is when we pick someone off a cliff/mountain/vessel/beach/lilo etc and, because they require medical attention (whether it be for hypothermia or a broken back), we take them to hospital.

As for recouping the fees - the NHS seems to be better at squeezing more money from the treasury than the MoD, after all they are expanding and we are contracting.

[Whooper5]

Re: Airport Charges for Military Helicopter Emergency Flights

Crab,

Thanks for that, pretty much as I thought. I’m not sure I follow your logic on the costs though.

My wife (a nurse) sees the NHS side of this and questions the premise that the NHS recoups the funds from government. It would appear the structure of the NHS is such that these costs are paid locally, not through a central budget. Thus it is nigh on impossible to recover the funds as it becomes ‘local’ finance departments fighting the big boys in London. I’m sure you can imagine the impact of these costs on a local trust. I suspect your funding not only comes far higher up the food chain and would carry a bit more clout when seeking reimbursement but is also a drop in a far larger pot.

I’m honestly not trying to apportion any blame or create scandal; I just can’t see the logic in one flight being free and the other costing. I guess someone has to pay and it just came down to the toss of a coin, perhaps this is indicative of the UK’s ad hoc funding and policy for SAR , that is assuming there is no ‘central SAR pot’ in the UK.

Whooper 5

[vecvechookattack]

Re: Airport Charges for Military Helicopter Emergency Flights

Thats correct. In simple terms, a CASEVAC is when you transfer the casualty from a dangerous environment to a safe environment. For a casevac the MOD pays. A MEDEVAC is when you transfer a casualty from a medical facility to another medical facility. For medivac the NHS pays.

However, regardless of the mission, the airport concerned would be correct to demand payment. Saving lives isn't free.

[SASless]

Re: Airport Charges for Military Helicopter Emergency Flights

VEC,

Same charge for using the airport after hours for an emergency...when the only service provided was....NONE?