Tony Blair visit to Iraq
Tigs2, We would have been there if we had a Tory leader or even a Liberal, so quite a pathetic post I think.
We get paid a good wage to do what we do and sign up knowing the risks involved. If you think otherwise - you are naive at best.
The sooner we distance our selves from American Foreign Policy, the better.
We get paid a good wage to do what we do and sign up knowing the risks involved. If you think otherwise - you are naive at best.
The sooner we distance our selves from American Foreign Policy, the better.
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plans123
Err…..don’t think so old bean. In 2002/03, the Lib Dems were then and remain to this day, vehemently opposed to the latest Iraq foray (perhaps they looked at the thing historically – Post 1918 break up of Ottoman Empire, Treaty of Versailles, arbitrary drawing of Iraq national boundaries by the Western Powers and the resultant series of violent insurrections/coups from the early 1920’s to the present day).
Similarly, it remains debatable whether a Tory administration would have been sucked into the present imbroglio with the alacrity facilitated by Tony Bliar’s very special and remarkably close relationship with Dubya.
I do, however, agree with your sentiment that service personnel should be prepared for the kinds of situation currently faced in Iraq by Coalition Forces and with which, I am sure, you are all coping magnificently. The mantra that sticks in my mind from a number of lives ago was to the effect that if I couldn’t take a joke, I shouldn’t have joined!
A very Merry Christmas to you and all other Pprune readers/contributors.
Err…..don’t think so old bean. In 2002/03, the Lib Dems were then and remain to this day, vehemently opposed to the latest Iraq foray (perhaps they looked at the thing historically – Post 1918 break up of Ottoman Empire, Treaty of Versailles, arbitrary drawing of Iraq national boundaries by the Western Powers and the resultant series of violent insurrections/coups from the early 1920’s to the present day).
Similarly, it remains debatable whether a Tory administration would have been sucked into the present imbroglio with the alacrity facilitated by Tony Bliar’s very special and remarkably close relationship with Dubya.
I do, however, agree with your sentiment that service personnel should be prepared for the kinds of situation currently faced in Iraq by Coalition Forces and with which, I am sure, you are all coping magnificently. The mantra that sticks in my mind from a number of lives ago was to the effect that if I couldn’t take a joke, I shouldn’t have joined!
A very Merry Christmas to you and all other Pprune readers/contributors.
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Just a point on parliamentary protocol. When the Government of the day announce that they are declaring war on a country, the opposition party is honour bound to support the Government having been pre-briefed on the reasoning. No Government can afford to make such a declaration without firstly obtaining support - however reluctant - from HM Opposition.
Was out in Baghdad and Basra two years ago and was not impressed. Summer temperatures, no adequate water, no adequate electricity supply, locals quite reasonably getting annoyed. The Baghdad mistake was allowing the looting and wholesale destruction to make a return to normality almost impossible to achieve. Was staying outside the Green Zone with Iraqi colleagues and saw from first hand the effects on the locals. I agree with Highcirrus re Dubya
Was out in Baghdad and Basra two years ago and was not impressed. Summer temperatures, no adequate water, no adequate electricity supply, locals quite reasonably getting annoyed. The Baghdad mistake was allowing the looting and wholesale destruction to make a return to normality almost impossible to achieve. Was staying outside the Green Zone with Iraqi colleagues and saw from first hand the effects on the locals. I agree with Highcirrus re Dubya
"......sucked into the present imbroglio"
A situation which would, however, be extremely pleasant to experience with Natalie Imbruglia, one would venture to suggest.....
A situation which would, however, be extremely pleasant to experience with Natalie Imbruglia, one would venture to suggest.....
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I heard a rumour from a well placed source that all the peeps seeing BLAIR were vetted before hand in order to do a number of things
1:- Hands stiched into pockets via the sleeves
2:- cable ties used to "cuff" to the rear
3:- Hands stiched in a front folded arms position
4:- Food and non alcoholic drink handed out
The above results give the impression that all those listening either had their arms folded, at the stand easy position or in their pockets
The food prevented anyone from shouting obscenities, i`m not surprised it is probably the first time they`ve had a decent meal.
Lads and lassies....keep up the good work, youll always get a free drink from me
except (i dont drink.........much)
1:- Hands stiched into pockets via the sleeves
2:- cable ties used to "cuff" to the rear
3:- Hands stiched in a front folded arms position
4:- Food and non alcoholic drink handed out
The above results give the impression that all those listening either had their arms folded, at the stand easy position or in their pockets
The food prevented anyone from shouting obscenities, i`m not surprised it is probably the first time they`ve had a decent meal.
Lads and lassies....keep up the good work, youll always get a free drink from me
except (i dont drink.........much)
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Plans 123 - Very true that the servicemen and women sign thier lives away on the dotted line. However the old sense of it was to defend Queen and Country.
It latterly added the Commonwealth to that list and NATO commitments . However the justification for going to war was based on a number of factors which were over emphasised to say the least. To say there was a clear and present threat to the U.K from Iraq is doubtful .
Whether anyone in the future will wish to commemorate the events of GW2 remains to be seen - certainly I don't think the military leaders deserve any glory neither the politicians that sent them there. If in the long run Iraq has a democratic and free
country remains to be seen - I sincerely doubt there will be any tears lost over there for the British servicemen and women that made it happen for them.
It latterly added the Commonwealth to that list and NATO commitments . However the justification for going to war was based on a number of factors which were over emphasised to say the least. To say there was a clear and present threat to the U.K from Iraq is doubtful .
Whether anyone in the future will wish to commemorate the events of GW2 remains to be seen - certainly I don't think the military leaders deserve any glory neither the politicians that sent them there. If in the long run Iraq has a democratic and free
country remains to be seen - I sincerely doubt there will be any tears lost over there for the British servicemen and women that made it happen for them.
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Very true that the servicemen and women sign thier lives away on the dotted line. However the old sense of it was to defend Queen and Country
If you take the kings shilling then you must be prepared to suffer the ultimate sacrifice.
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I've been collecting my shilling for decades but that doesn't mean that I have to respect any politician or his policies.
The main thing that annoys me about these sort of visits is that they do little good for the troops involved but results in more bu***ration factors for them in the preparation.
The main thing that annoys me about these sort of visits is that they do little good for the troops involved but results in more bu***ration factors for them in the preparation.
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At this stage, his photo-opportunity (with extras courtesy of MoD Central Casting) is pointless as the Dear Leader is unlikely to see out 2006, as even Prezza has the knife out for him. The minature Nazi Blears only offered lukewarm endorsement of the Celestial Navigator's education vision.
Perhaps the photo-op was so his future masterpiece of the written word could have a few more Maoesque staged adoration photos.
Perhaps the photo-op was so his future masterpiece of the written word could have a few more Maoesque staged adoration photos.
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BossEyed
Would this be the letter to The Telegraph of 24 Dec 05? The link provided led to a number of different letter subjects. Has Bliar decimated the Scottish infantry regiments yet or is he waiting for the resignation statistics to become a little more spinable in the New Year?
Army overstretched
Sir - The Territorial Army is losing 600 volunteers a month. Some 800 Territorials have just been called up for service in Afghanistan. A TA member can be called up for only one year in three.
An exceptional number of serving soldiers have indicated a wish to leave the Army. It is obvious they are underpaid, but the real problem is clearly crisis-level overstretch and the worst recruiting figures in living memory.
Overstretch stopped a previous plan to cut regiments. A petition with 155,000 signatures, requesting an urgent review, was taken to Number 10 some weeks ago. So far only silence.
British sailors, soldiers and airmen will do their duty without question, while they experience demotivating, unfair, excessive stress. I wonder if the politicians will begin to do theirs.
D H MacRae, Edinburgh
Would this be the letter to The Telegraph of 24 Dec 05? The link provided led to a number of different letter subjects. Has Bliar decimated the Scottish infantry regiments yet or is he waiting for the resignation statistics to become a little more spinable in the New Year?
Army overstretched
Sir - The Territorial Army is losing 600 volunteers a month. Some 800 Territorials have just been called up for service in Afghanistan. A TA member can be called up for only one year in three.
An exceptional number of serving soldiers have indicated a wish to leave the Army. It is obvious they are underpaid, but the real problem is clearly crisis-level overstretch and the worst recruiting figures in living memory.
Overstretch stopped a previous plan to cut regiments. A petition with 155,000 signatures, requesting an urgent review, was taken to Number 10 some weeks ago. So far only silence.
British sailors, soldiers and airmen will do their duty without question, while they experience demotivating, unfair, excessive stress. I wonder if the politicians will begin to do theirs.
D H MacRae, Edinburgh
BossEyed Would this be the letter to The Telegraph of 24 Dec 05? The link provided led to a number of different letter subjects.
Morale-sapper
Sir - I fail to see how the morale of the average British soldier serving in Iraq would be improved by a visit from this particular Prime Minister.
Quite the reverse, I would have thought.
David Ellis, Shenzen, China
Sir - I fail to see how the morale of the average British soldier serving in Iraq would be improved by a visit from this particular Prime Minister.
Quite the reverse, I would have thought.
David Ellis, Shenzen, China
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I and 3,998* inmates of HMP Mount Pleasant felt the same about Maggie's visit - so what does your letter contain that's new other than a bit of Blair bashing?
*CBFFI enjoyed the visit, according to the RAF News
*CBFFI enjoyed the visit, according to the RAF News
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The Dear Leader is happy to visit "our boys" for the purpose of a photo-opportunity, sorry for building morale, but somehow cannot seem to take some time out from his busy schedule (August in the Caribbean) to visit those injured as a result of his willingness to pay (someone else's) "blood price".
www.thescotsman.scotsman.com
www.thescotsman.scotsman.com
4,000 soldiers flown home for treatment, but no visit from PM
GETHIN CHAMBERLAIN
CHIEF NEWS CORRESPONDENT
Key points
• Blair criticised for not visiting injured soldiers
• 4,000 troops have failed to recieve recognition
• PM accused of 'lack of respect' for troops
Key quote
"They feel that they have been treated disgracefully," she said. "They have done their bit and it is a disgrace that they are being treated in this way. But from the way Tony Blair treats the families of those who have been killed in Iraq it doesn't surprise me that this is how they treat the wouned." - Rose Gentle
MORE than 4,000 British soldiers have been flown home from Iraq for medical treatment since the start of the war in 2003 - but not one has received a visit from the Prime Minister in hospital on their return.
The previously unreleased casualty figure reflects the true human cost of the war in Iraq. It is the equivalent of eight infantry regiments, or half the army's current strength in Iraq.
US soldiers flown home for treatment have received regular visits from senior figures in their administration, including the president, George Bush, and vice-president Dick Cheney.
Britain's wounded have been denied any such recognition, with only the Defence Secretary and a handful of junior defence ministers bothering to visit the Selly Oak hospital in Birmingham where the injured are treated.
Downing Street refused to discuss the reasons for the Prime Minister's decision to stay away from the hospital.
But opponents of the war said the government's failure to acknowledge the growing number of casualties reflected a lack of respect for the soldiers who had been sent to the Middle East to fight and they accused Mr Blair of being afraid of the negative publicity which might be generated by images of injured soldiers.
Rose Gentle, who lost her son Gordon in a bomb attack on a Royal Highland Fusiliers patrol in Basra last year, said she had spoken to soldiers who had returned injured from Iraq who felt that they had been ignored.
"They feel that they have been treated disgracefully," she said. "They have done their bit and it is a disgrace that they are being treated in this way.
"But from the way Tony Blair treats the families of those who have been killed in Iraq it doesn't surprise me that this is how they treat the wounded."
The SNP leader, Alex Salmond, said: "This situation is a damning indictment of a failing Prime Minister who is refusing to confront the horrific consequences of his own actions. While he is happy to go on triumphalistic media-friendly tours of Iraq, the fact that he has failed to meet those soldiers who have put their own lives on the line for his unjust cause, speaks volumes for his lack of honour and integrity."
Andrew Burgin, a spokesman for the Stop the War Coalition, said soldiers deserved more respect. He said: "Because of the difficulties of the government in Iraq they are trying to hide not only the casualty figures but the wounded themselves."
He said he believed that Mr Blair was afraid to be photographed with the injured in case the images were later used against him by protesters.
Exact casualty figures for the British Army in Iraq are hard to come by because the Ministry of Defence claims that it does not keep a log of injuries.
The picture is further muddied because many of those injured in action are treated in Iraq and return to duties without having to seek medical attention back in the UK. However, defence sources said about a third of those evacuated from Iraq are understood to have sustained their injuries in action.
The latest available figures for show that up to the end of September, 3,836 soldiers had been brought home for treatment, an average of four soldiers every day. Army sources said that at that rate, the figure was now expected to have passed the 4,000 mark.
Challenged previously on the subject of his failure to visit injured soldiers at the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine at Selly Oak Hospital, Mr Blair told the Commons that the armed forces were courageous people who had done an immensely worthwhile job in Iraq.
Some members of the Royal Family have made visits to the troops, however, including Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall.
GETHIN CHAMBERLAIN
CHIEF NEWS CORRESPONDENT
Key points
• Blair criticised for not visiting injured soldiers
• 4,000 troops have failed to recieve recognition
• PM accused of 'lack of respect' for troops
Key quote
"They feel that they have been treated disgracefully," she said. "They have done their bit and it is a disgrace that they are being treated in this way. But from the way Tony Blair treats the families of those who have been killed in Iraq it doesn't surprise me that this is how they treat the wouned." - Rose Gentle
MORE than 4,000 British soldiers have been flown home from Iraq for medical treatment since the start of the war in 2003 - but not one has received a visit from the Prime Minister in hospital on their return.
The previously unreleased casualty figure reflects the true human cost of the war in Iraq. It is the equivalent of eight infantry regiments, or half the army's current strength in Iraq.
US soldiers flown home for treatment have received regular visits from senior figures in their administration, including the president, George Bush, and vice-president Dick Cheney.
Britain's wounded have been denied any such recognition, with only the Defence Secretary and a handful of junior defence ministers bothering to visit the Selly Oak hospital in Birmingham where the injured are treated.
Downing Street refused to discuss the reasons for the Prime Minister's decision to stay away from the hospital.
But opponents of the war said the government's failure to acknowledge the growing number of casualties reflected a lack of respect for the soldiers who had been sent to the Middle East to fight and they accused Mr Blair of being afraid of the negative publicity which might be generated by images of injured soldiers.
Rose Gentle, who lost her son Gordon in a bomb attack on a Royal Highland Fusiliers patrol in Basra last year, said she had spoken to soldiers who had returned injured from Iraq who felt that they had been ignored.
"They feel that they have been treated disgracefully," she said. "They have done their bit and it is a disgrace that they are being treated in this way.
"But from the way Tony Blair treats the families of those who have been killed in Iraq it doesn't surprise me that this is how they treat the wounded."
The SNP leader, Alex Salmond, said: "This situation is a damning indictment of a failing Prime Minister who is refusing to confront the horrific consequences of his own actions. While he is happy to go on triumphalistic media-friendly tours of Iraq, the fact that he has failed to meet those soldiers who have put their own lives on the line for his unjust cause, speaks volumes for his lack of honour and integrity."
Andrew Burgin, a spokesman for the Stop the War Coalition, said soldiers deserved more respect. He said: "Because of the difficulties of the government in Iraq they are trying to hide not only the casualty figures but the wounded themselves."
He said he believed that Mr Blair was afraid to be photographed with the injured in case the images were later used against him by protesters.
Exact casualty figures for the British Army in Iraq are hard to come by because the Ministry of Defence claims that it does not keep a log of injuries.
The picture is further muddied because many of those injured in action are treated in Iraq and return to duties without having to seek medical attention back in the UK. However, defence sources said about a third of those evacuated from Iraq are understood to have sustained their injuries in action.
The latest available figures for show that up to the end of September, 3,836 soldiers had been brought home for treatment, an average of four soldiers every day. Army sources said that at that rate, the figure was now expected to have passed the 4,000 mark.
Challenged previously on the subject of his failure to visit injured soldiers at the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine at Selly Oak Hospital, Mr Blair told the Commons that the armed forces were courageous people who had done an immensely worthwhile job in Iraq.
Some members of the Royal Family have made visits to the troops, however, including Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall.
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Jess,
You beat me to it. No media opportunity or perceived danger in visiting soldiers back in the UK, is there??
The man, as are his lying, spineless todies, is a shyster. None of them are worth the ink in the pen when it comes to the next election!
You beat me to it. No media opportunity or perceived danger in visiting soldiers back in the UK, is there??
The man, as are his lying, spineless todies, is a shyster. None of them are worth the ink in the pen when it comes to the next election!
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a spokesman for the Stop the War Coalition, bla.......