Saudi Arabia commits to Eurofighter Typhoon deal
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This article indicates that some reports might be a little optimistic.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1430476&C=airwar
So are they simply trading in the ADVs or replacing the F5s as well?
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1430476&C=airwar
So are they simply trading in the ADVs or replacing the F5s as well?
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There is no contract as yet: therefore no public pricing details exist. ORAC's figure is, IMHO, closer to the mark, given the numbers being quoted. But it all depends on many factors - such as actual numbers ordered, delivery profiles, further options, tranche specs, thro' life support requirements etc etc. Think back to the previous Al Yamamahs, and whichever way you skin it, the deal is rather BIG.
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Who's jets?
As this is a UK - Saudi deal, not EF - Saudi, whose jets are they going to get? How is it going to affect our front line? When the Al Yamamah deal kicked off in earnest, spares to the UK Sqns suffered because the Saudis had first shout.
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Yes, but on the plus side, those items not working too well or those in need of rapid development will get money thrown at them if required to meet export contracts.
I suspect the Stage 1 radar for the F3 (the first one that sort of worked) would have come very much later had it not been essential to meet the Saudi buy.
I suspect the Stage 1 radar for the F3 (the first one that sort of worked) would have come very much later had it not been essential to meet the Saudi buy.
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So are they simply trading in the ADVs or replacing the F5s as well?
Notwithstanding this 'straight from the camel's mouth' information, remember that nothing we hear in Kingdom is kosher
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Defence News: Saudi Crown Prince Confirms Typhoon Deal With U.K.
Saudi Crown Prince Sultan Bin Abdulaziz confirmed on Dec. 26 that a memo of understanding (MOU) has been signed with the United Kingdom for the purchase of an undisclosed number of Eurofighter Typhoon jets. “We will buy the Typhoon aircraft from Britain,” said Sultan, who also is Saudi Arabia’s defense minister. “Britain ... has agreed to take away from us all our used aircraft whether they are American- or British-built, and they number about 200 planes.”....... The Air Force has some 80 aging Northrop Grumman F-5 Tiger II jets, 107 BAE SYSTEMS Tornado fighters and 170 F-15S fighters.
However, Sultan denied all press reports regarding the value of the deal. The official Saudi Press Agency (SPA) had claimed last week that the value of the British Typhoon deal was far less than the reported figure of $70 billion. “The reported news of an armament deal valued at over $70 billion between the kingdom and Britain is not correct,” the SPA reported Dec. 22, quoting a Defense Ministry official.......
“The Saudi Command had decided some time ago to adopt a policy that makes it a requirement for any party interested in selling defense systems to the kingdom to help it dispose of its old systems,” said a senior Saudi military official who asked not to be named. The official pointed out that Saudi leaders had placed such a condition on parties that offered to replace the kingdom’s 290 AMX-30 main battle tanks built by France’s GIAT. He declined to elaborate.
Saudi Crown Prince Sultan Bin Abdulaziz confirmed on Dec. 26 that a memo of understanding (MOU) has been signed with the United Kingdom for the purchase of an undisclosed number of Eurofighter Typhoon jets. “We will buy the Typhoon aircraft from Britain,” said Sultan, who also is Saudi Arabia’s defense minister. “Britain ... has agreed to take away from us all our used aircraft whether they are American- or British-built, and they number about 200 planes.”....... The Air Force has some 80 aging Northrop Grumman F-5 Tiger II jets, 107 BAE SYSTEMS Tornado fighters and 170 F-15S fighters.
However, Sultan denied all press reports regarding the value of the deal. The official Saudi Press Agency (SPA) had claimed last week that the value of the British Typhoon deal was far less than the reported figure of $70 billion. “The reported news of an armament deal valued at over $70 billion between the kingdom and Britain is not correct,” the SPA reported Dec. 22, quoting a Defense Ministry official.......
“The Saudi Command had decided some time ago to adopt a policy that makes it a requirement for any party interested in selling defense systems to the kingdom to help it dispose of its old systems,” said a senior Saudi military official who asked not to be named. The official pointed out that Saudi leaders had placed such a condition on parties that offered to replace the kingdom’s 290 AMX-30 main battle tanks built by France’s GIAT. He declined to elaborate.
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Wicked. Who cares about the HUUGE delay to getting Typhoon.
If we take all their jets on part ex, every F3 mate can have at least an F-15 plus a spare EACH, and an F-5 to do doggers on weekends with red stars on fins and helmets.
"S**t......... MiG 29....... No-one's been this close before......"
Any takers for the 107 sand blasted FMk2.5 semi-active shooters, or the dozen front-line fighters we currently field?
Ray.
If we take all their jets on part ex, every F3 mate can have at least an F-15 plus a spare EACH, and an F-5 to do doggers on weekends with red stars on fins and helmets.
"S**t......... MiG 29....... No-one's been this close before......"
Any takers for the 107 sand blasted FMk2.5 semi-active shooters, or the dozen front-line fighters we currently field?
Ray.
Could I request clarification of a point, please?
There seem to be two theories at work about how this effects the RAF's Typhoon purchase.
The first is that the Saudi order for 24 means that the RAF will receive 65 rather than 89 Tranche 2 aircraft, with the statement that the 24 'lost' airframes being replaced later on down the line being a nice bit of spin.
The second theory is that the contract means that it's impossible for the MoD to reduce the RAF's order in this way - that unless the 24 Tranche 2 airframes signed up for are replaced by others built later all sorts of contractual issues (e.g. over workshare) crop up.
Without straying into the realms of commerical-in-confidence, etc, does anyone know which is correct?
There seem to be two theories at work about how this effects the RAF's Typhoon purchase.
The first is that the Saudi order for 24 means that the RAF will receive 65 rather than 89 Tranche 2 aircraft, with the statement that the 24 'lost' airframes being replaced later on down the line being a nice bit of spin.
The second theory is that the contract means that it's impossible for the MoD to reduce the RAF's order in this way - that unless the 24 Tranche 2 airframes signed up for are replaced by others built later all sorts of contractual issues (e.g. over workshare) crop up.
Without straying into the realms of commerical-in-confidence, etc, does anyone know which is correct?
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The 24 refered to is the production slots, the RAF will still receive the 89, but the first 24 Saudi aircraft will be made when the RAF aircraft would have been made, the RAF Aircraft then get placed into of the production run where they can (usually towards the end).
There is quite a bit of slack in the 4 national assembley lines, but there are problems with long lead items, if you want a quick delivery then swapping production slots for export is an excellent way delivering at short notice.
Given sufficent time (18 months) there can be a large increase in production per month to fulfil the biggest export orders.
Cheers
There is quite a bit of slack in the 4 national assembley lines, but there are problems with long lead items, if you want a quick delivery then swapping production slots for export is an excellent way delivering at short notice.
Given sufficent time (18 months) there can be a large increase in production per month to fulfil the biggest export orders.
Cheers
Re: Saudi Arabia commits to Eurofighter Typhoon deal
jwc,
Thank you - I was, though, trying (but failing) to ask a slightly different question.
It is whether or not the rumours that giving these 24 slots to the Saudis provides the MoD with a cunning means of reducing the buy for the aircraft without having to utter the words 'cancel' or 'we don't need as many as we first...' are based on a misunderstanding.
As I understood it (and I think from something posted here on Pprune) the contract means that the MoD cannot do this because it would raise issues of workshare and thus we are obliged to take 89 Tranche 2 aircraft.
There are a number of commentators ('senior RAF sources' in most papers...) suggesting that the MoD has found a way of dropping the overall buy for the RAF without incurring any penalty in the form of renegotiation of the workshare, etc, and that the statement that the full buy of 89 Tranche 2 aircraft would go ahead is simply a smokescreen to disguise another cutback.
I've seen this repeated several times, and I'm beginning to wonder if my perception that - without renegotiation - the contract prevents the supposed MoD course of action outlined by these 'experts' is in fact erroneous.
Thank you - I was, though, trying (but failing) to ask a slightly different question.
It is whether or not the rumours that giving these 24 slots to the Saudis provides the MoD with a cunning means of reducing the buy for the aircraft without having to utter the words 'cancel' or 'we don't need as many as we first...' are based on a misunderstanding.
As I understood it (and I think from something posted here on Pprune) the contract means that the MoD cannot do this because it would raise issues of workshare and thus we are obliged to take 89 Tranche 2 aircraft.
There are a number of commentators ('senior RAF sources' in most papers...) suggesting that the MoD has found a way of dropping the overall buy for the RAF without incurring any penalty in the form of renegotiation of the workshare, etc, and that the statement that the full buy of 89 Tranche 2 aircraft would go ahead is simply a smokescreen to disguise another cutback.
I've seen this repeated several times, and I'm beginning to wonder if my perception that - without renegotiation - the contract prevents the supposed MoD course of action outlined by these 'experts' is in fact erroneous.
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Re: Saudi Arabia commits to Eurofighter Typhoon deal
Perhaps the fact that it is a UK Government to Saudi contract allows the MOD to 'buy' some of its' airframes for use not by the RAF but by the RSAF.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Re: Saudi Arabia commits to Eurofighter Typhoon deal
DID: ......Given the Eurofighter's current optimization for an air-air role and the continued usefulness of Saudi Arabia's Tornado IDS strike aircraft, observers are urged to be cautious about assuming that all Royal Saudi Air Force Tornados will be withdrawn from service as the Eurofighters arrive. The UK Ministry of Defence release said simply: "Under the terms of the signed document Typhoon aircraft will replace Tornado Air Defence Variant aircraft and others currently in service with the RSAF." Note the lack of specificity beyond the Tornado F3s.
Saudi Arabia also has 72 F-15S downgraded Strike Eagle variants delivered under the Peace Sun IX contracts that could take over the Tornado IDS' strike role, but this would reduce the kingdom's current strike capabilities.
The Eurofighters could serve at least as well as replacements for the 24 Tornado ADVs of 29 Squadron, the elderly F-5/RF-5 Tiger IIs of 17 Squadron near Jeddah, and the 62 American F-15 C/D Eagle air superiority fighters acquired during the 1980s......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which makes a total of about 200 jets. Then, in the Herald, Dec 30th:
SAUDI Arabia plans to buy more than 200 Eurofighter Typhoon jets from the UK in a deal worth up to £40bn including spares, maintenance and training over the next 20 years, The Herald has learned.......
Saudi Arabia also has 72 F-15S downgraded Strike Eagle variants delivered under the Peace Sun IX contracts that could take over the Tornado IDS' strike role, but this would reduce the kingdom's current strike capabilities.
The Eurofighters could serve at least as well as replacements for the 24 Tornado ADVs of 29 Squadron, the elderly F-5/RF-5 Tiger IIs of 17 Squadron near Jeddah, and the 62 American F-15 C/D Eagle air superiority fighters acquired during the 1980s......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which makes a total of about 200 jets. Then, in the Herald, Dec 30th:
SAUDI Arabia plans to buy more than 200 Eurofighter Typhoon jets from the UK in a deal worth up to £40bn including spares, maintenance and training over the next 20 years, The Herald has learned.......
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Re: Saudi Arabia commits to Eurofighter Typhoon deal
I can't help but comment on this....
Having seen up close for 2 years exactly how the RSAF operate Tornado, It seems like Typhoon is just another expensive toy the RSAF can add to the inventory.
A few interesting facts regarding current toys.
1. Not one Saudi IDS made it to the Tanker let alone the target in the first Gulf war.
2. At least one crew ejected South ! of Dhahran short of fuel.
3. Several Pilots were quietly removed, to one degree or another, due to LMF !
4. Sqn commanders actually to big to get into the aircraft !
5. Aircraft abonded by crew at the end of the active, fully armed and live exiting cockpit by using a ladder from a passing non Sqn. source !
6. Maintenance levels of IDS in particular, carried out solely by RSAF personnel (uncharitably known as the dark side), is to put it mildly a joke. On a superficial level these aircraft leak all and any fluids they care to put in them. Systems availability can only be guessed at.
7. I'll never forget the nervous small talk as I strapped in many expat Navs tasked on training sorties with less than current RSAF pilots, who crew in thus.. G vest check, Maps check, Seat pins check, worry beads check ! I kid you not.
I could go on..but suffice to say any meaningful talk of RSAF fast jet assets is a complete waste of time. They cannot operate them.
Edit
I will concede my comments don't include the F15's, It did seem to me these were almost exclusively expat maintained. And certainly not flown at night !
Having seen up close for 2 years exactly how the RSAF operate Tornado, It seems like Typhoon is just another expensive toy the RSAF can add to the inventory.
A few interesting facts regarding current toys.
1. Not one Saudi IDS made it to the Tanker let alone the target in the first Gulf war.
2. At least one crew ejected South ! of Dhahran short of fuel.
3. Several Pilots were quietly removed, to one degree or another, due to LMF !
4. Sqn commanders actually to big to get into the aircraft !
5. Aircraft abonded by crew at the end of the active, fully armed and live exiting cockpit by using a ladder from a passing non Sqn. source !
6. Maintenance levels of IDS in particular, carried out solely by RSAF personnel (uncharitably known as the dark side), is to put it mildly a joke. On a superficial level these aircraft leak all and any fluids they care to put in them. Systems availability can only be guessed at.
7. I'll never forget the nervous small talk as I strapped in many expat Navs tasked on training sorties with less than current RSAF pilots, who crew in thus.. G vest check, Maps check, Seat pins check, worry beads check ! I kid you not.
I could go on..but suffice to say any meaningful talk of RSAF fast jet assets is a complete waste of time. They cannot operate them.
Edit
I will concede my comments don't include the F15's, It did seem to me these were almost exclusively expat maintained. And certainly not flown at night !
Last edited by ARINC; 2nd Jan 2006 at 20:45.
Re: Saudi Arabia commits to Eurofighter Typhoon deal
Originally Posted by ORAC
Who cares what they do with them after they've bought them? 
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Re: Saudi Arabia commits to Eurofighter Typhoon deal
If ARINC's observations still apply it looks like the future of BAE Systems assistance in Saudi is assured for a long time to come!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Re: Saudi Arabia commits to Eurofighter Typhoon deal
ARCINC
At least one of your comments can't be right:
<<1. Not one Saudi IDS made it to the Tanker let alone the target in the first Gulf war.>>
I have a clear recollection of a Saudi prince being interviewed on TV after the first Saudi mission in a Tornado. Very smart he was. Not a hair out of place and such skin. His face had recovered from the oxygen mask clamp by the time he had descended the ladder.
At least one of your comments can't be right:
<<1. Not one Saudi IDS made it to the Tanker let alone the target in the first Gulf war.>>
I have a clear recollection of a Saudi prince being interviewed on TV after the first Saudi mission in a Tornado. Very smart he was. Not a hair out of place and such skin. His face had recovered from the oxygen mask clamp by the time he had descended the ladder.