3 more Apache pilots resign
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Peoplespoet.
I'm not sure if you are fishing here, like you know the answer and you're just looking for it to be backed up by somebody who's on this forum overtly.
The truth is I wasn't aware that CTT no longer had an ammunition allocation, and that CTR would only fire 30mm DP, I'm now curious. There hasn't been any such chat in our crewroom.
Please check your PM's.
I'm not sure if you are fishing here, like you know the answer and you're just looking for it to be backed up by somebody who's on this forum overtly.
The truth is I wasn't aware that CTT no longer had an ammunition allocation, and that CTR would only fire 30mm DP, I'm now curious. There hasn't been any such chat in our crewroom.
Please check your PM's.
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I am in agreement with you Tom that i have heard nothing of the ammunition being cut for CTT or CTR. Think PP is fishing, and all you have to do is look at the amount we have for the forth coming exercise loads of bangs. Sorry PP but think you may be ill informed on this one.
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CPG and Peoplespoet.
I've had it from a very good source that it is true about the ammo being cut from CTT. I do wonder how SAAvn will train its instructors on weapons if they don't get to fire live ammo, then there will be a credabilty issue, how can an instructor talk about diving fire if he's never done it.
This could be the very thin edge of a long wedge!
I've had it from a very good source that it is true about the ammo being cut from CTT. I do wonder how SAAvn will train its instructors on weapons if they don't get to fire live ammo, then there will be a credabilty issue, how can an instructor talk about diving fire if he's never done it.
This could be the very thin edge of a long wedge!
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I am not fishing, I'm no reporter. Thought it was a fair question best answered by an AH driver.
I agree that we are at the thin end of the wedge if you don't have to live fire to qualify from CTT. What next? you will be telling me that Mountain flying or NVG has been removed.
Never mind put it on the 'risk register' and as long as the field army can pick up the pieces then nothing is lost. I do wish that when we have money taken from our training that our lords and masters would just turn round and say No. I understand that pressure will be placed to still achieve and thats understandable, but at what long term cost?
I wonder how a civilian company would deal with a situation where they cant afford a component vital to the production line. Just leave it out and hope it still works when it's switched on? Good planning and management that would be..Not.
I do remember reading a phrase that the British forces once had great pride in "Train Hard...Fight Easy", must have been a lie as it never caught on at all in aviation.
PP.
Very cynical
I agree that we are at the thin end of the wedge if you don't have to live fire to qualify from CTT. What next? you will be telling me that Mountain flying or NVG has been removed.
Never mind put it on the 'risk register' and as long as the field army can pick up the pieces then nothing is lost. I do wish that when we have money taken from our training that our lords and masters would just turn round and say No. I understand that pressure will be placed to still achieve and thats understandable, but at what long term cost?
I wonder how a civilian company would deal with a situation where they cant afford a component vital to the production line. Just leave it out and hope it still works when it's switched on? Good planning and management that would be..Not.
I do remember reading a phrase that the British forces once had great pride in "Train Hard...Fight Easy", must have been a lie as it never caught on at all in aviation.
PP.
Very cynical
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I also remember the Ministries reasons for reducing the Armed Forces not so long ago included:
A leaner but much better equipped Armed Forces...Ive first hand experience of the lean as well as the mean but with regard the equipment...not seen.
A leaner but much better equipped Armed Forces...Ive first hand experience of the lean as well as the mean but with regard the equipment...not seen.
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Peoplespoet.
There has to be a requirement for any project to get funding; here is some food for thought.
When was the last time that any fighting formation relied upon the AAC to win a battle?
The majority of the senior officers in the Army right now will have come through the BAOR School of war fighting, where the Lynx with TOW was always the last resort when calling HELARM now, Mk 1 Lynx to the rescue! To be fair whenever the Lynx live fired it was with PRAC so that wouldn't really impress the socks off anybody would it? So in my opinion very little faith was put in it. The Lynx was never funded to go to BATUS why? When it did make the odd cameo appearance it had such a devastating effect the Cavalry had very little to do. Get off my train set, BATUS was set up for Armour! Enough said!
The modern Battle Group commander who is outside of 16 AA Bde (24 Bde before it) will not get the intimate working knowledge of the new Army Air Corps, as all of the Armed Regiments now Attack Regiments are in one basket, to be fair even 16 AA Bde didn't really grasp what 3 Regt had to offer during Op Telic 1, it took 7 Bde to get the most out of Lynx TOW and the mighty Gazelle. As for 847 NAS they were devastating and made a massive impact. 3 Bde don’t go anywhere without Avn!
So onto funding issues. 3 quick fire questions and answers:
1. Does Arty struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that an AS90 or MLRS crew don't qualify without live firing lots of ammo. Hey Churchill has Arty ever played a decisive roll in any battles? Oh yes! You can bet your arris it has, it’s so "well in"!
2. Does Armour struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know a tank commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has armour ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
3. Does infantry struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that a Warrior commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has Infantry ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
There is a pattern emerging.
The teeth arms have a great deal of support in the higher echelons and as much of a force multiplier as aviation is, everybody is fighting for funding.
Now if the tank was to replace the horse on the battle field then hundreds of horses will be surplus to requirement, so just imagine if the helicopter was to replace the tank? Everybody knows that will never happen; there will always be a need for armour. I’m not sure how much support the AAC and Apache gets when it comes to the odd funding battle. The hype about fire and forget missiles the video footage of Apache destroying targets with impunity and ease give the wrong impression, it looks easy, so it must be! If it’s easy then why do you need to train? Train Hard Fight Easy!
Now a big issue. Officer careers. A young Army Officer straight out of Sandhurst goes AAC, spends about 18 mth pilot training, then if he’s really lucky he’ll get loaded onto An Apache CTT (these start every 6 mth so if the timing is wrong he could wait up to 5 mth) CTT lasts for 6 mth, then 6 mth CTR, he’s been in the Army 2 ½ years without even commanding himself let alone men. His piers in the Infantry and Cavalry would have been Tp/Plt commanders, done BATUS maybe an Op tour, how can he compete? But he has to. As a result the CTT package must not exceed 6 mth, make it fit SAAvn!
I’ve heard the odd rumour about poor flying rates at Dishforth, the reasons vary from no spares, no techs and even no pilots, cos they’re away doing Army orientated disciplines. I’ll bet every pilot has done OPTAG trg prior to Herrick! What ever the reason it would appear that the Army will soon be asking these lads (a lot of them mates of mine) to do some serious sh1t. Now if pre-tour flying rates are low for what ever the reason then the AAC will have learnt nothing. A few people kicking about will remember Ploce in 1995! Not good, and I hope and pray there’s no repeat.
I said at the beginning “there has to be a requirement for any project to get funding”.
One simple question. Does the Army consider the amount of funding required for Apache to be good value for money?
Until Army Avn pulls somebody out of the sh1t, I doubt it.
Given this background I wonder if there is any truth that the AH pilots at Dishforth are going to leave when opportunity knocks! Time will tell.
There has to be a requirement for any project to get funding; here is some food for thought.
When was the last time that any fighting formation relied upon the AAC to win a battle?
The majority of the senior officers in the Army right now will have come through the BAOR School of war fighting, where the Lynx with TOW was always the last resort when calling HELARM now, Mk 1 Lynx to the rescue! To be fair whenever the Lynx live fired it was with PRAC so that wouldn't really impress the socks off anybody would it? So in my opinion very little faith was put in it. The Lynx was never funded to go to BATUS why? When it did make the odd cameo appearance it had such a devastating effect the Cavalry had very little to do. Get off my train set, BATUS was set up for Armour! Enough said!
The modern Battle Group commander who is outside of 16 AA Bde (24 Bde before it) will not get the intimate working knowledge of the new Army Air Corps, as all of the Armed Regiments now Attack Regiments are in one basket, to be fair even 16 AA Bde didn't really grasp what 3 Regt had to offer during Op Telic 1, it took 7 Bde to get the most out of Lynx TOW and the mighty Gazelle. As for 847 NAS they were devastating and made a massive impact. 3 Bde don’t go anywhere without Avn!
So onto funding issues. 3 quick fire questions and answers:
1. Does Arty struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that an AS90 or MLRS crew don't qualify without live firing lots of ammo. Hey Churchill has Arty ever played a decisive roll in any battles? Oh yes! You can bet your arris it has, it’s so "well in"!
2. Does Armour struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know a tank commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has armour ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
3. Does infantry struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that a Warrior commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has Infantry ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
There is a pattern emerging.
The teeth arms have a great deal of support in the higher echelons and as much of a force multiplier as aviation is, everybody is fighting for funding.
Now if the tank was to replace the horse on the battle field then hundreds of horses will be surplus to requirement, so just imagine if the helicopter was to replace the tank? Everybody knows that will never happen; there will always be a need for armour. I’m not sure how much support the AAC and Apache gets when it comes to the odd funding battle. The hype about fire and forget missiles the video footage of Apache destroying targets with impunity and ease give the wrong impression, it looks easy, so it must be! If it’s easy then why do you need to train? Train Hard Fight Easy!
Now a big issue. Officer careers. A young Army Officer straight out of Sandhurst goes AAC, spends about 18 mth pilot training, then if he’s really lucky he’ll get loaded onto An Apache CTT (these start every 6 mth so if the timing is wrong he could wait up to 5 mth) CTT lasts for 6 mth, then 6 mth CTR, he’s been in the Army 2 ½ years without even commanding himself let alone men. His piers in the Infantry and Cavalry would have been Tp/Plt commanders, done BATUS maybe an Op tour, how can he compete? But he has to. As a result the CTT package must not exceed 6 mth, make it fit SAAvn!
I’ve heard the odd rumour about poor flying rates at Dishforth, the reasons vary from no spares, no techs and even no pilots, cos they’re away doing Army orientated disciplines. I’ll bet every pilot has done OPTAG trg prior to Herrick! What ever the reason it would appear that the Army will soon be asking these lads (a lot of them mates of mine) to do some serious sh1t. Now if pre-tour flying rates are low for what ever the reason then the AAC will have learnt nothing. A few people kicking about will remember Ploce in 1995! Not good, and I hope and pray there’s no repeat.
I said at the beginning “there has to be a requirement for any project to get funding”.
One simple question. Does the Army consider the amount of funding required for Apache to be good value for money?
Until Army Avn pulls somebody out of the sh1t, I doubt it.
Given this background I wonder if there is any truth that the AH pilots at Dishforth are going to leave when opportunity knocks! Time will tell.
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OVC,
Don't worry yourself OVC I read last year in the telegraph that they are 'ready' for war, the CO broadcast his message to the world media during an open day with a battle cry of "just give me someone to fight" so they must be.
After statement like that imagine the humiliation if they are found lacking in any department.......... it will be a nice shiny medal, promotion or an early pension for him for sure!
PP
Don't worry yourself OVC I read last year in the telegraph that they are 'ready' for war, the CO broadcast his message to the world media during an open day with a battle cry of "just give me someone to fight" so they must be.
After statement like that imagine the humiliation if they are found lacking in any department.......... it will be a nice shiny medal, promotion or an early pension for him for sure!
PP
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derrrrr,
It has therefore been cut from CTT; meaning that to pass an attack helicopter conversion course you don't have to demonstrate the ability to actually shoot anything, which was my original point. If its just a case of moving it then why not move, mountains, IF or `night flying?
It will certainly keep the course length down and improve the pass rate!
Is it not the case that the ammunition that would have been fired on the CTT is not included into the ammunition allocation for CTR either, apart for a couple of bangs? Therefore actually cutting the ammunition allocation because there isnt any remaining for training!
P.P.
It has therefore been cut from CTT; meaning that to pass an attack helicopter conversion course you don't have to demonstrate the ability to actually shoot anything, which was my original point. If its just a case of moving it then why not move, mountains, IF or `night flying?
It will certainly keep the course length down and improve the pass rate!
Is it not the case that the ammunition that would have been fired on the CTT is not included into the ammunition allocation for CTR either, apart for a couple of bangs? Therefore actually cutting the ammunition allocation because there isnt any remaining for training!
P.P.
I'll see your derrr and raise it to a D'Oh. If something is cut, it is taken out, if it is moved then it is conducted in a different phase of the training. From the AH OSP....
CTT ammunition
30mm = X
Rockets Prac = Y
MPSM Prac = Z
CTR ammunition
30mm = A
Rockets Prac = B
MPSM Prac = C
Reality is...
CTT = Nil
CTR =
30mm = X+A
Rockets Prac = Y+B (when they become available)
MPSM Prac + Z+C (as above)
Rockets and their availability is matter of funding (being addressed), the amount required to complete training (under review) and the lead in time from ordering to delivery. The move of firing to CTR was taken as a measure to ease the strain on the overloaded CTT process. IRRC this applies to the current CTR and the next one will resume firing but probably only for 30mm. The rationilastion of CTT/CTR training will produce a more joined up approach whereby hypothetically mountain flying will fit later in the pipeline but formation flying will fit earlier.
Finally, NVG is not taught at all at the moment but NVS is (different optical wavelength). DNVG is not far away though.
Tom,
A SAAvn Instructor should not be doing diving fire, he is not qualified and it is not a TO for a student. All serials are conducted in the hover for CTT therefore that is all a SAAvn Instructor is required to do.
SL
CTT ammunition
30mm = X
Rockets Prac = Y
MPSM Prac = Z
CTR ammunition
30mm = A
Rockets Prac = B
MPSM Prac = C
Reality is...
CTT = Nil
CTR =
30mm = X+A
Rockets Prac = Y+B (when they become available)
MPSM Prac + Z+C (as above)
Rockets and their availability is matter of funding (being addressed), the amount required to complete training (under review) and the lead in time from ordering to delivery. The move of firing to CTR was taken as a measure to ease the strain on the overloaded CTT process. IRRC this applies to the current CTR and the next one will resume firing but probably only for 30mm. The rationilastion of CTT/CTR training will produce a more joined up approach whereby hypothetically mountain flying will fit later in the pipeline but formation flying will fit earlier.
Finally, NVG is not taught at all at the moment but NVS is (different optical wavelength). DNVG is not far away though.
Tom,
A SAAvn Instructor should not be doing diving fire, he is not qualified and it is not a TO for a student. All serials are conducted in the hover for CTT therefore that is all a SAAvn Instructor is required to do.
SL
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I disagree,
The figures you quote is what I am sure should occur, but the reality is somewhat different I am led to believe from an experienced AMTAT member. The 30mm has not changed for CTR and the CTT ammo has just been swallowed up, or taken as another cost saving measure.
But I reiterate the fundamental point i raised; which was how can someone qualify from an Attack Helicopter course without demonstrating his/her ability to shoot sh1t. Can you imagine a tankie or a infantryman leaving training and not completing APWT or basic weapons qualifications live! It sounds like you have had something to do with the removal of the training from CTT with way you defend the ridiculous idea!
Either way as long as the standard of the chaps on the 2 way range is what is required then fine, but why do the Americans fire at CTT, CTR and every month leading up to Ops. and when not on Ops every 6 months regardless of cost or consequence?
PP.
The figures you quote is what I am sure should occur, but the reality is somewhat different I am led to believe from an experienced AMTAT member. The 30mm has not changed for CTR and the CTT ammo has just been swallowed up, or taken as another cost saving measure.
But I reiterate the fundamental point i raised; which was how can someone qualify from an Attack Helicopter course without demonstrating his/her ability to shoot sh1t. Can you imagine a tankie or a infantryman leaving training and not completing APWT or basic weapons qualifications live! It sounds like you have had something to do with the removal of the training from CTT with way you defend the ridiculous idea!
Either way as long as the standard of the chaps on the 2 way range is what is required then fine, but why do the Americans fire at CTT, CTR and every month leading up to Ops. and when not on Ops every 6 months regardless of cost or consequence?
PP.
The CTT shoot as part of a CTR has yet to happen.
Methinks you consider a CTT to be the end of the matter, this is not the case. RAC/Inf, upon completion of basic training, are not ready to go on ops straight away and neither is an AH CTT dude, there is more to be done, in fact, if you do know someone at AMTAT as you claim, he will educate you about progressive training methods and the many shortfalls that a CTT graduate has compared to a AH CR pilot. He will also know about the firing requirements, it's good to talk, their number is not a secret.
Comparison with the US is an old chestnut that is worthy of comment. The main reasons they get so much ammunition is firstly they can afford it and secondly their crews need it to achieve the same level of accuracy that our crews can. I am fairly certain that if their ammunition budget was pared down to our levels, they would not be quite so cavalier about their ammunition expenditure.
You appear to have not helped even though you claim to have the ability to from an earlier post. It might even be said you are doing anything but.
SL
Methinks you consider a CTT to be the end of the matter, this is not the case. RAC/Inf, upon completion of basic training, are not ready to go on ops straight away and neither is an AH CTT dude, there is more to be done, in fact, if you do know someone at AMTAT as you claim, he will educate you about progressive training methods and the many shortfalls that a CTT graduate has compared to a AH CR pilot. He will also know about the firing requirements, it's good to talk, their number is not a secret.Comparison with the US is an old chestnut that is worthy of comment. The main reasons they get so much ammunition is firstly they can afford it and secondly their crews need it to achieve the same level of accuracy that our crews can. I am fairly certain that if their ammunition budget was pared down to our levels, they would not be quite so cavalier about their ammunition expenditure.
You appear to have not helped even though you claim to have the ability to from an earlier post. It might even be said you are doing anything but.
SL
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Ammo has been cut
CTT ammo has been cut, after a steady reduction before that and no rockets before that.
Mountains has been cut.
Thank good ness we are not going somehwere mountainous that we require to shoot somebody!
I have done all my ATDs, BPFA and a BCFT though!
The whole thing is a joke and I am considering following the others who have resigned. I support previous posters "how can you qualify on a weapons platform if you don't ever shoot sh1t"? I am too frustrated and not being allowed to train for my job
Mountains has been cut.
Thank good ness we are not going somehwere mountainous that we require to shoot somebody!
I have done all my ATDs, BPFA and a BCFT though!
The whole thing is a joke and I am considering following the others who have resigned. I support previous posters "how can you qualify on a weapons platform if you don't ever shoot sh1t"? I am too frustrated and not being allowed to train for my job
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Chaps,
Just to clarify, initial weapons assessments are carried out in the simulator as part of CTT. The weapons package is taught at CTT as a whole to a basic standard. CTT only ever exposed the crews to initial consequence of fire standard requiring a full table.
Moving live firing to CTR as opposed to CTT enables more progressive use of the ammunition and therefore in theory a better product at the end. Qualification was never achieved until the end of CTR anyway as several tables of munitions are required progressively,
Regards,
HEDP
Just to clarify, initial weapons assessments are carried out in the simulator as part of CTT. The weapons package is taught at CTT as a whole to a basic standard. CTT only ever exposed the crews to initial consequence of fire standard requiring a full table.
Moving live firing to CTR as opposed to CTT enables more progressive use of the ammunition and therefore in theory a better product at the end. Qualification was never achieved until the end of CTR anyway as several tables of munitions are required progressively,
Regards,
HEDP
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I have just heard that project AH has lost another instructor (PM), I havnt seen him for a while so not sure if its true. I understand he is still a member of AMTAT but has been discharged on medical grounds? (always was a deaf bugger).
Not sure how this will impact on the program but the loss of another instructor can not be good. The last time I served with the 'badger' was in FRY, he was a door gunners nighmare as the ac comd! (joking)
Could someone that actually knows PM let me know what the bobby is, 'badger' if your a pruner PM me please.
PP
Not sure how this will impact on the program but the loss of another instructor can not be good. The last time I served with the 'badger' was in FRY, he was a door gunners nighmare as the ac comd! (joking)
Could someone that actually knows PM let me know what the bobby is, 'badger' if your a pruner PM me please.
PP
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HEDP,
I think you are are wrong. It is my opinion that individual aircrew need to fire live weapons on the CTT to achieve the basic level. Individual skill. They should then progress their tactics, and collective skills with further tables at CTR. Individual skills at CTT, and for an AH pilot, that means firing live ammo. Cutting live firing or reducing basic live ammo from CTT is the wrong approach.
The US Army conversion to AH has them firing 6 tables of 100 rounds, 10 rockets each. Front and back seat, running/diving and hover, both day and night. Their equivalent of CTR has further tables for collective training/unit qualification. They do it that way not because they can afford it, but because it is the the correct way to train an AH pilot.
I think you are are wrong. It is my opinion that individual aircrew need to fire live weapons on the CTT to achieve the basic level. Individual skill. They should then progress their tactics, and collective skills with further tables at CTR. Individual skills at CTT, and for an AH pilot, that means firing live ammo. Cutting live firing or reducing basic live ammo from CTT is the wrong approach.
The US Army conversion to AH has them firing 6 tables of 100 rounds, 10 rockets each. Front and back seat, running/diving and hover, both day and night. Their equivalent of CTR has further tables for collective training/unit qualification. They do it that way not because they can afford it, but because it is the the correct way to train an AH pilot.
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Comparison with the US is an old chestnut that is worthy of comment. The main reasons they get so much ammunition is firstly they can afford it and secondly their crews need it to achieve the same level of accuracy that our crews can. I am fairly certain that if their ammunition budget was pared down to our levels, they would not be quite so cavalier about their ammunition expenditure.
One flew past the end of my garden yesterday and I reckon I could have taken it down with a well aimed croissant. That would make me down in the mouth if I was flying about in it!
Originally Posted by Compressorstall
Sloppy Link it is a smug comment to assume that the US lags the British in terms of ability. The US Army does seem to have substantial experience of AH operations with their fleet of about 500 helicopters. It may be assumed that, just like us, they have aviators who range in ability from 'low average' to 'above average'. Just because we don't do it that way doesn't make it right. I would be happy to have any nation's AH with me who is confident that he can put rounds on target. Military aviation is an expensive business.
