3 more Apache pilots resign
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Interesting reading, at least someone is aware of the potential disaster that may occur if the AH remains poorly funded and badly resourced.
I get the feeling that whilst money may well be something that could be offered to tempt pilots to stay for a while longer I doubt that it will keep the majority in unless of course the financial figure is significant; already people are leaving when they could get FRI2 thats 50K for 5 years service..........Mmmmm.......not working is it.......... but why?
Well one reason may be quality of life, the chaps I see on a daily basis that are in their 20's look like they are in their 40's they are knackered, worn out and fatigued.
Don't visit an AH pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.
Great aircraft but what an existence....AttackKKKKKKKKK... What..
PP.
its good to talk, start listening!
I get the feeling that whilst money may well be something that could be offered to tempt pilots to stay for a while longer I doubt that it will keep the majority in unless of course the financial figure is significant; already people are leaving when they could get FRI2 thats 50K for 5 years service..........Mmmmm.......not working is it.......... but why?
Well one reason may be quality of life, the chaps I see on a daily basis that are in their 20's look like they are in their 40's they are knackered, worn out and fatigued.
Don't visit an AH pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.
Great aircraft but what an existence....AttackKKKKKKKKK... What..
PP.
its good to talk, start listening!
Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Well one reason may be quality of life, the chaps I see on a daily basis that are in their 20's look like they are in their 40's they are knackered, worn out and fatigued.
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Front Seater:
Late start Mondays and early finish Fridays like the other two services; get with the plot my dear chap! Light Blue Sqn, currently supporting 3 different ops on top of Ex Tropical Storm, Clockwork, Jebel Sahara, Mountain Lion, Eagles Blah and Herricks Whatsit. Old airframes in desperate need of replacement (read extension to 2024 if the latest rumours are to believed) not withstanding the IDT, IRT, CCS, FPC, WHT etc. Oh and don't forget the ISS, JOCC, JEWC, JAEWC, CEWIC, QHTI. Oops almost forgot the Airtests and Groundruns.
We're all in the same situation......
SO MAN UP WET PANTS!
Late start Mondays and early finish Fridays like the other two services; get with the plot my dear chap! Light Blue Sqn, currently supporting 3 different ops on top of Ex Tropical Storm, Clockwork, Jebel Sahara, Mountain Lion, Eagles Blah and Herricks Whatsit. Old airframes in desperate need of replacement (read extension to 2024 if the latest rumours are to believed) not withstanding the IDT, IRT, CCS, FPC, WHT etc. Oh and don't forget the ISS, JOCC, JEWC, JAEWC, CEWIC, QHTI. Oops almost forgot the Airtests and Groundruns.
We're all in the same situation......
SO MAN UP WET PANTS!
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Crabincab,
If your stupid enough to put up with it then more the fool you, I'm not on AH and don't suffer the way these chaps do, but just because you also suffer doesn't make it right either. Its not as if the wages service pilots get is remotely reflective of the monies our cushy airline friends get.
so I'm sure many of the AH drivers will continue in the sterling manner that they have already in delivering AH capability; on time, under budget and to a very high standard. But they have a point, flying GH with the AH is very, very different to fighting AH competently!
PP Out...
If your stupid enough to put up with it then more the fool you, I'm not on AH and don't suffer the way these chaps do, but just because you also suffer doesn't make it right either. Its not as if the wages service pilots get is remotely reflective of the monies our cushy airline friends get.
so I'm sure many of the AH drivers will continue in the sterling manner that they have already in delivering AH capability; on time, under budget and to a very high standard. But they have a point, flying GH with the AH is very, very different to fighting AH competently!
PP Out...
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Don't visit an LCC pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.
It is not all roses in the commercial world.Better paid mind.
It is not all roses in the commercial world.Better paid mind.
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Ref the RAF exchange at 3 Regt. For a few years the DRQHI was RAF when the Regt was at Soest. After that I recall a crab Flt Comd (rank of Sqn Ldr) at 653 Sqn.
To train a guy or girl for 12-14 mth, to only get 18 mth return of service before they return to the RAF then have nothing further to do with Attack Aviation doesn't make sense. At least the Army officers who move on after the same investment end up at desks that revolve around 16 AA Bde or DAAvn and pass on hard earned knowledge onto the staff officers that sit a little higher.
To train a guy or girl for 12-14 mth, to only get 18 mth return of service before they return to the RAF then have nothing further to do with Attack Aviation doesn't make sense. At least the Army officers who move on after the same investment end up at desks that revolve around 16 AA Bde or DAAvn and pass on hard earned knowledge onto the staff officers that sit a little higher.
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Part-timers
Out of curiosity, I've just 'googled' this from the Boeing website:
U.S. Army National Guard and Reserve
Nine U.S. Army National Guard (ARNG) and two U.S. Army Reserve (USAR) components are now flying the AH-64 Apache. The ARNG attack battalion in Arizona flies the more advanced AH-64D Apache Longbow; all other units in the Reserve Component fly the AH-64A Apache.
States with ARNG units flying Apaches include Arizona , Idaho , Mississippi , Missouri , North Carolina , Pennsylvania , South Carolina , Tennessee , Texas , and Utah . The USAR units flying Apaches are located in Kentucky and Texas . Texas is the only state with both ARNG and USAR Apache battalions.
ARNG units have been fully engaged in operations around the world including Operation Enduring Freedom, Bosnia and Kosovo.
Are the pilots all ex-Regular and just the F/T component of the NG / Reserve ?
How many hours does a reservist in North Carolina have to fly each month to remain current on the AH-64 ?
U.S. Army National Guard and Reserve
Nine U.S. Army National Guard (ARNG) and two U.S. Army Reserve (USAR) components are now flying the AH-64 Apache. The ARNG attack battalion in Arizona flies the more advanced AH-64D Apache Longbow; all other units in the Reserve Component fly the AH-64A Apache.
States with ARNG units flying Apaches include Arizona , Idaho , Mississippi , Missouri , North Carolina , Pennsylvania , South Carolina , Tennessee , Texas , and Utah . The USAR units flying Apaches are located in Kentucky and Texas . Texas is the only state with both ARNG and USAR Apache battalions.
ARNG units have been fully engaged in operations around the world including Operation Enduring Freedom, Bosnia and Kosovo.
Are the pilots all ex-Regular and just the F/T component of the NG / Reserve ?
How many hours does a reservist in North Carolina have to fly each month to remain current on the AH-64 ?
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OVC,
You are correct with the statement that at least the AAC officer remains in an AH desk job or appointment, not sure that I support the view that they pass on quality information; more their own opinion which is often what the hierarchy want to hear rather than what is actually happening or is required/needed.
The biggest problems occur when an officer makes a decision that is only taken in order to get him/her through their 2 year posting; and because they are unlikely to return to front line aviation they will never be made accountable for the desperate situation that is left behind. Things like ...HALS,Spares,Helmets,Breakout-Tools, Navbags,Ammo,MPS and not to forget the manning crisis and the many more greatly managed projects that remain inadequate or unavailable.
Oh and everything Else can go on the risk register...that must be like yellow pages by now!
I could be wrong though?
PP.
You are correct with the statement that at least the AAC officer remains in an AH desk job or appointment, not sure that I support the view that they pass on quality information; more their own opinion which is often what the hierarchy want to hear rather than what is actually happening or is required/needed.
The biggest problems occur when an officer makes a decision that is only taken in order to get him/her through their 2 year posting; and because they are unlikely to return to front line aviation they will never be made accountable for the desperate situation that is left behind. Things like ...HALS,Spares,Helmets,Breakout-Tools, Navbags,Ammo,MPS and not to forget the manning crisis and the many more greatly managed projects that remain inadequate or unavailable.
Oh and everything Else can go on the risk register...that must be like yellow pages by now!
I could be wrong though?
PP.
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Frog Prince.
The Army National Guard units are not all ex-regular soldiers.
I was lucky enough to do an Apache course at Fort Rucker, where the majority of aviators who were on A model Apache were from Guard units, mostly converting from Cobra, a lot of them were young men off the street, who joined the local Guard unit insteed of joining the regular army. They are CW1 and above, they have an obligation to return a set number of years and a set number of days on duty. One fella who was on the cse in ahead of me from New Jersey was a UH1 pilot, and flew on the 100 aircraft lift for Hamburger Hill (I'm not talking the film!) another fella Charlie (great guy on the p155) from the same unit was also a Vietnam war veteran.
I don't know how many hours they fly, I didn't keep in touch with the people I was with at Rucker, I'll see if I can dig out an email address and ask for you.
The Army National Guard units are not all ex-regular soldiers.
I was lucky enough to do an Apache course at Fort Rucker, where the majority of aviators who were on A model Apache were from Guard units, mostly converting from Cobra, a lot of them were young men off the street, who joined the local Guard unit insteed of joining the regular army. They are CW1 and above, they have an obligation to return a set number of years and a set number of days on duty. One fella who was on the cse in ahead of me from New Jersey was a UH1 pilot, and flew on the 100 aircraft lift for Hamburger Hill (I'm not talking the film!) another fella Charlie (great guy on the p155) from the same unit was also a Vietnam war veteran.
I don't know how many hours they fly, I didn't keep in touch with the people I was with at Rucker, I'll see if I can dig out an email address and ask for you.
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An AH-64 aviator (A or D) has to fly 140 hours per year whether they are in the active componet or the National Guard. This flight time can be reduced if they enter late in their training year.
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Futurology
Oh, I know 6 Regt AAC(V) is groundies only. I have a personal interest in these developments.
The roles of both 6 and 7 will evolve over time - hence the reference to 2012. By then the Gazelles will be gone, to be replaced by (insert fav choice), Future Lynx, SABR, Watchkeeper UAV, UCAV etc. will be with us. In short, the demand for aviation in the future battlespace is only increasing whilst market forces will cause the usual peaks and troughs in demand for ex-military aircrew to go ATPL / CPL.
Logically, reservists are a flexible labour force to complement the Regulars. Given the size of the GA pool in the UK, it is entirely feasible for the AAC to source pilots into military aviation who have not come from the ex-Regular route. This obviously works for the US Army, even with as complex an airframe/weapons system as AH-64.
The roles of both 6 and 7 will evolve over time - hence the reference to 2012. By then the Gazelles will be gone, to be replaced by (insert fav choice), Future Lynx, SABR, Watchkeeper UAV, UCAV etc. will be with us. In short, the demand for aviation in the future battlespace is only increasing whilst market forces will cause the usual peaks and troughs in demand for ex-military aircrew to go ATPL / CPL.
Logically, reservists are a flexible labour force to complement the Regulars. Given the size of the GA pool in the UK, it is entirely feasible for the AAC to source pilots into military aviation who have not come from the ex-Regular route. This obviously works for the US Army, even with as complex an airframe/weapons system as AH-64.
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Intersting points FP, however Future Lynx and SABR are dead, BRH is the new buzz word and even if accepted at UK PLC level won't be here until 2012 at the earliest according to industry sources.
As for joe bloggs walking in off the street to fly AH at the weekend in order to integrate fully into an op unit as and when surely is pure fantasy in the UK.
We are after all talking about the UK Defence Budget
As for joe bloggs walking in off the street to fly AH at the weekend in order to integrate fully into an op unit as and when surely is pure fantasy in the UK.
We are after all talking about the UK Defence Budget
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Tee hee...
I don't really imagine a reservist will be flying AH anytime soon.
However, that doesn't preclude their use for other aircraft, such as UAV's when the CAA tells the army it needs qualified pilots to fly Watchkeeper in uncontrolled airspace and there aren't enough to go around quickly enough.
Feasible isn't the same as practical or likely !
By extension, this also means that Uncle Sam must have money to burn on a capability that is neither effective nor deployable, which I doubt.
However, that doesn't preclude their use for other aircraft, such as UAV's when the CAA tells the army it needs qualified pilots to fly Watchkeeper in uncontrolled airspace and there aren't enough to go around quickly enough.
Feasible isn't the same as practical or likely !
By extension, this also means that Uncle Sam must have money to burn on a capability that is neither effective nor deployable, which I doubt.
Last edited by FrogPrince; 18th Jan 2006 at 13:08.
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AHQHI656SQN or any other AH driver:
Is the rumour true that AH pilots now qualify at CTT without having live fired at all, and will only fire cannon during CR training. I Heard it in the crew room and argued that it couldn't be true. As an old Mk7 TOW driver and having to fire TOW during CTT to qualify surely this is not the case?
If it is true it marks the beginning of the end for AH....and so soon!
PP
Is the rumour true that AH pilots now qualify at CTT without having live fired at all, and will only fire cannon during CR training. I Heard it in the crew room and argued that it couldn't be true. As an old Mk7 TOW driver and having to fire TOW during CTT to qualify surely this is not the case?
If it is true it marks the beginning of the end for AH....and so soon!
PP
Frog,
I cannot answer the flying hour question. However, the Guard and Reserve pilots are not full time soldiers. A very small number are and are called Technicans when working as a Civil Service employee at the Guard Flight Activity. The Technicians would be called Cadre in some places but serve a dual role when in the Guard.
The Guard is the State Militia and are subject to both State and Federal duty if called by the Governor or President for active service.
The Reserve has no State obligation.
These folks are our neighbors...the banker, plumber, lawyer, truck driver....teacher...accountants....who are not "full time" members of the military. When they finish their deployment to Iraq and other places...they revert to their regular professions.
Not all the pilots are from "active duty" and many have done only Guard service with all flight training and conversion courses being done at Active Duty Army Schools.
Guard Pilots must meet the exact same standards their active duty brethern do....they attend extra training sessions beyond the one weekend a month and two weeks active duty training each year.
The notion only Active Service people can accomplish the mission does not hold water. Add to that, our Reserve and National Guard troops are an integral part of many "Active" units....and do so as "units" and not individual "replacements or fillers".
I cannot answer the flying hour question. However, the Guard and Reserve pilots are not full time soldiers. A very small number are and are called Technicans when working as a Civil Service employee at the Guard Flight Activity. The Technicians would be called Cadre in some places but serve a dual role when in the Guard.
The Guard is the State Militia and are subject to both State and Federal duty if called by the Governor or President for active service.
The Reserve has no State obligation.
These folks are our neighbors...the banker, plumber, lawyer, truck driver....teacher...accountants....who are not "full time" members of the military. When they finish their deployment to Iraq and other places...they revert to their regular professions.
Not all the pilots are from "active duty" and many have done only Guard service with all flight training and conversion courses being done at Active Duty Army Schools.
Guard Pilots must meet the exact same standards their active duty brethern do....they attend extra training sessions beyond the one weekend a month and two weeks active duty training each year.
The notion only Active Service people can accomplish the mission does not hold water. Add to that, our Reserve and National Guard troops are an integral part of many "Active" units....and do so as "units" and not individual "replacements or fillers".
