VGS - Can you Nav?
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VGS - Can you Nav?
Seeing as some VGS folk seem to know an awful lot about a school near Basingstoke can anyone help me with the following:
In an aforementioned thread there is reference to someone flying in controlled airspace from said airfield.
1- Does the QGI know how to read a map?
2- Who signed this QGI off as to having competent knowledge of "The rules of the air" let alone "Air Law"?
3- Is said person really an instructor?
4- Do non PPL/CPL/ATPL staff at these VGS know how to nav?
5- Was his map up to date and containing relevant airspace boundaries?
Help.
I'm wondering if a child of mine is safe flying in her Maj's machines when rumours as above are rife and widespread.
What qualification in flying terms does a VGS QGI hold in a civilian equivalent?
In an aforementioned thread there is reference to someone flying in controlled airspace from said airfield.
1- Does the QGI know how to read a map?
2- Who signed this QGI off as to having competent knowledge of "The rules of the air" let alone "Air Law"?
3- Is said person really an instructor?
4- Do non PPL/CPL/ATPL staff at these VGS know how to nav?
5- Was his map up to date and containing relevant airspace boundaries?
Help.
I'm wondering if a child of mine is safe flying in her Maj's machines when rumours as above are rife and widespread.
What qualification in flying terms does a VGS QGI hold in a civilian equivalent?
The holder of the ATC Instructor's Qualification valid for the Vigilant Motor Glider who wishes to obtain a NPPL (SSEA) shall:
a. Produce log book evidence of having satisfactorily completed flying training under the supervision of an authorised instructor in a single-engine piston aeroplane which must include:
(1) Not less than 1 hour dual instruction in stall/spin awareness and avoidance;
(2) Not less than 1 hour dual instrument appreciation;
(3) Not less than 1 hour supervised solo flight;
(4) Not less than 4 hours navigation training or successful completion of the ‘Air Cadet Vigilant Transit Qualification' training syllabus, including one solo cross-country flight.
b. Pass the JAR-FCL PPL (A) theoretical knowledge examinations;
c. Hold a valid NPPL Medical Declaration or JAR-FCL Class 1 or 2 medical certificate;
d. Pass the NPPL (SSEA) NST and GST.
a. Produce log book evidence of having satisfactorily completed flying training under the supervision of an authorised instructor in a single-engine piston aeroplane which must include:
(1) Not less than 1 hour dual instruction in stall/spin awareness and avoidance;
(2) Not less than 1 hour dual instrument appreciation;
(3) Not less than 1 hour supervised solo flight;
(4) Not less than 4 hours navigation training or successful completion of the ‘Air Cadet Vigilant Transit Qualification' training syllabus, including one solo cross-country flight.
b. Pass the JAR-FCL PPL (A) theoretical knowledge examinations;
c. Hold a valid NPPL Medical Declaration or JAR-FCL Class 1 or 2 medical certificate;
d. Pass the NPPL (SSEA) NST and GST.
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In responding to Low Break's point no 5. Do we asume that these so called instructors fly with out of date maps in a service aircraft? Perhaps they make do with the 2004 AA road map or the OS ramblers map. Who is supposed to check that a map is up to date? I suspect Mr sloping shoulders.
Does trundling down to another airfield you can see from 8000' over your home base for a low approach and go-around count as a nav trip?!
Some of you know what I mean...............
Some of you know what I mean...............
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FTS - I'd love to buy you a beer or tart fuel whichever is your tipple! You do know an awful lot about said VGS! and it is ALL true so anyone on here bleating on about LIBEL should go use a dictionary.
360 - "Going-around"!!!
Ever flown near a bowl?
360 - "Going-around"!!!
Ever flown near a bowl?
Chandelle-eur! ......not with me at the helm! Whats the term for it?.........oh yeah, FACIT!
In reference to the maps, 1/4 mill low level maps only show airways with a base of flight level 55 and below. Therefore the higher level airways are marked on by hand at the unit concerned.........surely someone is responsible for that?!?! CFI? UFSO? Or the old scapegoat Flt Lt Slopey Shoulders as mentioned above?! Perhaps current 1/2 mill maps would be better suited to the task, provided people are capable of reading them!
In reference to the maps, 1/4 mill low level maps only show airways with a base of flight level 55 and below. Therefore the higher level airways are marked on by hand at the unit concerned.........surely someone is responsible for that?!?! CFI? UFSO? Or the old scapegoat Flt Lt Slopey Shoulders as mentioned above?! Perhaps current 1/2 mill maps would be better suited to the task, provided people are capable of reading them!
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Not hearing much about military aviation here.
Gliders seem to use there priveledges under the rules of the air to go wherever they see fit.
If you haven't got the correct chart for the airspace you are about to fly in, then don't!!
As to who is responsible for correctly marking the carts, as always it comes down to the Captain.
I haven't heard much on this thread to give me confidence of the professionalism of the VGS system. Perhaps we should disband it and give the money to the AEF/UAS system?
Gliders seem to use there priveledges under the rules of the air to go wherever they see fit.
If you haven't got the correct chart for the airspace you are about to fly in, then don't!!
As to who is responsible for correctly marking the carts, as always it comes down to the Captain.
I haven't heard much on this thread to give me confidence of the professionalism of the VGS system. Perhaps we should disband it and give the money to the AEF/UAS system?
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Professionalism and VGS's don't seem to go together full stop.
Not when you read about said school in Hants where the head honcho seems to breed discontent.
What we have to remember is that many are just seeking to fly as P1 and call themselves instructors under the guise of teaching "air minded youth".
Frankly, from what i have seen and read, any parent of an air cadet in the aforementioned schools area should be worried.
I just hope HQAC and whoever the governing bodies are that supervise the VGS at the very least take notice of the so called "rumours" on here.
No smoke without fire.........
Perhaps those who type their discontentment on here do so as they have no faith in their "chain of command".....
Anyone got any spins on this?
Not when you read about said school in Hants where the head honcho seems to breed discontent.
What we have to remember is that many are just seeking to fly as P1 and call themselves instructors under the guise of teaching "air minded youth".
Frankly, from what i have seen and read, any parent of an air cadet in the aforementioned schools area should be worried.
I just hope HQAC and whoever the governing bodies are that supervise the VGS at the very least take notice of the so called "rumours" on here.
No smoke without fire.........
Perhaps those who type their discontentment on here do so as they have no faith in their "chain of command".....
Anyone got any spins on this?
Yes, those electric charts with all that airspace on are just too heavy to carry!
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Chandelle-eur-lots to think about here. I will certainly keep any cadets of mine from going to fly at this place in Hants (presumably 618 VGS )(I believe 622 is an excellent alternative and run by a true professional) As for chain of command-a joke so it would seem, as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and look at the weak link down there running 618. HQAC have obviously got their heads where the sun don't shine and are very reluctant to pull it out. Lets hope that we don't see smoke and fire together when one of these "expert instructors"pulls a cunning stunt like flying in to controlled airspace whilst out on a sightseeing mission(without a map!)
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Hey ho! Tried to exercise self restraint but here I am.
My creds? 500hrs Silver 'C' lapsed AEI, flown with RAFGSA and BGA civvy clubs plus, ahem, ex G1 with the VGS system.
I've flown with two VGS's both winch launch Grob104 'Viking' schools so my experiences/comments are limited to the 'proper' gliding type of operation.
Both schools were staffed by enthusiastic friendly people who enjoyed what they did and who generally operated within their limitations. Some were professional aviators, both Mil and Civ and some more held PPL's although the masses were chimps like me, just glider pilots.
Unfortunately, there are some who should not be let within 100yds of a VGS glider let alone with little Johhny Miggins up front. I've witnessed some appalling demonstrations of flying 'skill', ranging from low level high 'g' turns to unauthorised and poorly executed aerobatics, also there was a general lack of understanding of navigation, map reading or airway structure and worst of all, an wholly inappropriate self belief in their flying ability coupled to a derisory opinion of any gliding performed outside of the VGS system, which to me was particularly annoying as their experiences of the wider gliding world was non existant.
so to answer you questions:-
1- Does the QGI know how to read a map? - Probably not
2- Who signed this QGI off as to having competent knowledge of "The rules of the air" let alone "Air Law"? - All abo 'C' cats attending the 'C' cat course at Syerston take a battery of exams which are virtually identical to the BGA Bronze 'C'. These I believe are the only aviation related exams taken at any instructor level.
3- Is said person really an instructor? - In the eyes of the ACO yes, however outside in the real world no, but the BGA do recognise the VGS quals and providing Bloggs satisfies the local BGA examiner he can be awarded a BGA instructors ticket commensurate with his VGS Category. But then the reverse applies, a BGA Full Cat can't just start instructing on VGS aircraft because he's a Full Cat, he'll get a check out first by ACCGS.
4- Do non PPL/CPL/ATPL staff at these VGS know how to nav? - From my experiences, No! Most are ex cadets who have been brought up within the system, most have not ventured outside of it because, to put it frankly, it's free gliding.
5- Was his map up to date and containing relevant airspace boundaries? - On Viking schools nobody flies with a map as they're not allowed outside of gliding range of the airfield and anyway there is no map store and nobody can be @rsed. However a Grob104 at 4000' AGL will go a long way and if your siuational awareness is pap then a modicum of map reading skill might be useful.
Overall the VGS system, although far from perfect, does a very good job getting Johnny Miggins from Abo to solo safely and is achieved with monotonous regularity, remember most cadets never set foot in a glider ever again so the quality of the final product I feel reflects that. The main problem is with individual VGS's and that, without good supervision from HQAC, and in particular Sqn Ldr GL1, they can very quickly become a little feifdom which sadly seems to be the case with the oft quoted VGS.
Finally, would I send my snapper to a VGS? No chance! If I were to expect my kid to fly properly I want them taught properly from the start, RAFGSA for me!
My creds? 500hrs Silver 'C' lapsed AEI, flown with RAFGSA and BGA civvy clubs plus, ahem, ex G1 with the VGS system.
I've flown with two VGS's both winch launch Grob104 'Viking' schools so my experiences/comments are limited to the 'proper' gliding type of operation.
Both schools were staffed by enthusiastic friendly people who enjoyed what they did and who generally operated within their limitations. Some were professional aviators, both Mil and Civ and some more held PPL's although the masses were chimps like me, just glider pilots.
Unfortunately, there are some who should not be let within 100yds of a VGS glider let alone with little Johhny Miggins up front. I've witnessed some appalling demonstrations of flying 'skill', ranging from low level high 'g' turns to unauthorised and poorly executed aerobatics, also there was a general lack of understanding of navigation, map reading or airway structure and worst of all, an wholly inappropriate self belief in their flying ability coupled to a derisory opinion of any gliding performed outside of the VGS system, which to me was particularly annoying as their experiences of the wider gliding world was non existant.
so to answer you questions:-
1- Does the QGI know how to read a map? - Probably not
2- Who signed this QGI off as to having competent knowledge of "The rules of the air" let alone "Air Law"? - All abo 'C' cats attending the 'C' cat course at Syerston take a battery of exams which are virtually identical to the BGA Bronze 'C'. These I believe are the only aviation related exams taken at any instructor level.
3- Is said person really an instructor? - In the eyes of the ACO yes, however outside in the real world no, but the BGA do recognise the VGS quals and providing Bloggs satisfies the local BGA examiner he can be awarded a BGA instructors ticket commensurate with his VGS Category. But then the reverse applies, a BGA Full Cat can't just start instructing on VGS aircraft because he's a Full Cat, he'll get a check out first by ACCGS.
4- Do non PPL/CPL/ATPL staff at these VGS know how to nav? - From my experiences, No! Most are ex cadets who have been brought up within the system, most have not ventured outside of it because, to put it frankly, it's free gliding.
5- Was his map up to date and containing relevant airspace boundaries? - On Viking schools nobody flies with a map as they're not allowed outside of gliding range of the airfield and anyway there is no map store and nobody can be @rsed. However a Grob104 at 4000' AGL will go a long way and if your siuational awareness is pap then a modicum of map reading skill might be useful.
Overall the VGS system, although far from perfect, does a very good job getting Johnny Miggins from Abo to solo safely and is achieved with monotonous regularity, remember most cadets never set foot in a glider ever again so the quality of the final product I feel reflects that. The main problem is with individual VGS's and that, without good supervision from HQAC, and in particular Sqn Ldr GL1, they can very quickly become a little feifdom which sadly seems to be the case with the oft quoted VGS.
Finally, would I send my snapper to a VGS? No chance! If I were to expect my kid to fly properly I want them taught properly from the start, RAFGSA for me!
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I did a year as a staff cadet on a Scottish Viking VGS (20 years ago!), and as far as I can recall it was a professionally run outfit. Looking back from my current perspective (instructing mil EFT) the instruction I received as a cadet was excellent, and standards throughout the staff seemed to be consistent.
On the other hand some of us from the sqn pitched up at a well-known civvy gliding airfield in Scotland one day and were blinded by how gash the operation was...
On the other hand some of us from the sqn pitched up at a well-known civvy gliding airfield in Scotland one day and were blinded by how gash the operation was...
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DK338
Many thanks for your insightful reply to the thread.
It now seems abundantly clear that VGS don't get any formal nav training, hence this character at EGVO didn't really stand a chance.
Was he aware that the final responsibility for current maps rests firmly on the shoulders of the captain?
It appears not, either that or he has become forgetful.
Again, not the type of FI i'd want my child to fly near let alone with.
The maps 1/4 mill carried, i am assured, seem unsuitable for the job in the UK's busiest corner of airspace.
It would also appear that the person responsible for keeping said maps updated and available on the school as a whole was not fulfilling his job properly either.
So now we have 2 people that have questionable traits.
Does this gliding range rule apply to the motor glider outfits?
If so i assume that people will climb to what they assume/think/guess is as high as they can, so they can get further away from home base.
Either way airspace and navigation requires an acute understanding of barometric settings so are we also to assume that the aforementioned FI/QGI (whatever he is) has a handle on QFE / QNH / FL's?!
Someone said in a previous thread he was solo "SCT".
What does this mean? Is this a usual trip?
An instructor flying solo? Was it a positioning/transit flight?
Either way it sounds that its safer that he was solo.
Apparently he has a portfolio of misdemeanours..... anyone else know of this chaps antics?
Remember, its only libel if its untrue.
Many thanks for your insightful reply to the thread.
It now seems abundantly clear that VGS don't get any formal nav training, hence this character at EGVO didn't really stand a chance.
Was he aware that the final responsibility for current maps rests firmly on the shoulders of the captain?
It appears not, either that or he has become forgetful.
Again, not the type of FI i'd want my child to fly near let alone with.
The maps 1/4 mill carried, i am assured, seem unsuitable for the job in the UK's busiest corner of airspace.
It would also appear that the person responsible for keeping said maps updated and available on the school as a whole was not fulfilling his job properly either.
So now we have 2 people that have questionable traits.
Does this gliding range rule apply to the motor glider outfits?
If so i assume that people will climb to what they assume/think/guess is as high as they can, so they can get further away from home base.
Either way airspace and navigation requires an acute understanding of barometric settings so are we also to assume that the aforementioned FI/QGI (whatever he is) has a handle on QFE / QNH / FL's?!
Someone said in a previous thread he was solo "SCT".
What does this mean? Is this a usual trip?
An instructor flying solo? Was it a positioning/transit flight?
Either way it sounds that its safer that he was solo.
Apparently he has a portfolio of misdemeanours..... anyone else know of this chaps antics?
Remember, its only libel if its untrue.
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Chandelle,
As you asked,
I think that this thread is a disgrace and by that I dont mean the event being discussed but the fact that it is being done so on an open forum at all.
I think that most people who have commented have done so at the expense of the overall reputation of an organisation that is designed to introduce youngsters to aviation in this guise.
I doubt if a public witch hunt is required of an individual or individuals unknown to me however, with a thin veil that would not prevent them being identifyable to many.
I understand that there is a balance to be struck regarding the incident and the interests of the organisation and those that it is aimed at but I am afraid that this is not the forum for the debate.
This will cause incalculable damage to the reputation of a particularly usefull organisation and the effect will be all the greater for it being discussed on here.
IMHO
HEDP
Oh and try not to be so rude in the future, I would hope that it doesn't become you!
As you asked,
I think that this thread is a disgrace and by that I dont mean the event being discussed but the fact that it is being done so on an open forum at all.
I think that most people who have commented have done so at the expense of the overall reputation of an organisation that is designed to introduce youngsters to aviation in this guise.
I doubt if a public witch hunt is required of an individual or individuals unknown to me however, with a thin veil that would not prevent them being identifyable to many.
I understand that there is a balance to be struck regarding the incident and the interests of the organisation and those that it is aimed at but I am afraid that this is not the forum for the debate.
This will cause incalculable damage to the reputation of a particularly usefull organisation and the effect will be all the greater for it being discussed on here.
IMHO
HEDP
Oh and try not to be so rude in the future, I would hope that it doesn't become you!
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I agree that the VGS's are magnificent organisations, introducing today's youth to flying and hopefully getting some of them hooked. I personally benefited from a GS during my time in the ATC and it was an amazing experience.
I don't think that the removal of the VGS is a good idea, it is a valuable recruitment tool for the Air Force. I remember at Syerston on the squadron that I was on, that many of the cadets were aiming to join as pilots and many of them had not considered it before doing scholarships and many stay on and then put back into the system that has given them so much.
However, that obviously does not remove the need for safety. If there are genuine issues with some of the pilots then let's address them and let the organisation move on. There will always be risks, as with everything in life. We can reduce them as much as possible but there will always be risks. Don't let the fun police win this one!
As for whether or not it should be discussed on here on an open forum? If people on here have sons and daughters who use the VGS then surely they have a right to know, however for the reputation of the unit, maybe it would have been better to have a general VGS rant rather then a squadron specific one.
I don't think that the removal of the VGS is a good idea, it is a valuable recruitment tool for the Air Force. I remember at Syerston on the squadron that I was on, that many of the cadets were aiming to join as pilots and many of them had not considered it before doing scholarships and many stay on and then put back into the system that has given them so much.
However, that obviously does not remove the need for safety. If there are genuine issues with some of the pilots then let's address them and let the organisation move on. There will always be risks, as with everything in life. We can reduce them as much as possible but there will always be risks. Don't let the fun police win this one!
As for whether or not it should be discussed on here on an open forum? If people on here have sons and daughters who use the VGS then surely they have a right to know, however for the reputation of the unit, maybe it would have been better to have a general VGS rant rather then a squadron specific one.
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HEDP
sorry old boy (or old girl without being sexist) you are wrong. This does need a public viewing as they are paying for the VGS to run. Public money is in short supply and if this sort of thing is going on, the public have a right to know. It should be stopped, or the VGS closed down. A bit drastic perhaps, but i am reliably informed by some of the more enlightened members of the VGS fraternity that this is the tip of the iceberg. I wonder what the reaction of viewers will be if one of these irresponsible instructors leaves a big smoking hole in the ground or causes a mid- air collision. Questions in the house or what?
sorry old boy (or old girl without being sexist) you are wrong. This does need a public viewing as they are paying for the VGS to run. Public money is in short supply and if this sort of thing is going on, the public have a right to know. It should be stopped, or the VGS closed down. A bit drastic perhaps, but i am reliably informed by some of the more enlightened members of the VGS fraternity that this is the tip of the iceberg. I wonder what the reaction of viewers will be if one of these irresponsible instructors leaves a big smoking hole in the ground or causes a mid- air collision. Questions in the house or what?
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FTS - Thankyou
HEDP - Firstly please don't think i was being rude, my energy here is used in typing not personal conflict.
I was merely asking questions in a thread I started.
ALL-
There would appear to be a leaning in some minds that the whole movement needs abolishing.
I can safely say that that would be a catastrophic decision in anyones eyes.
The level of responsibilty in VGS life seems to outweigh the knowledge a few people seem to have. That fact alone is worrying.
I am all too well aware that there are a great many excellent instructors in the VGS world. However there are a few that seem to spoil it for the majority. As in all walks of life.
The key and irrefutable difference between civilian flying and VGS flying is that the carpet is far lumpier in MoD portakabins.
As it has been previously stated in at least 2 other threads on here....
If anyone outside this VGS fraternity, including RAF/RN/AAC units, PPL or general civvy skygods, had a mid air collision or flown into controlled airspace, we are talking CAA and licence issues.
Insurance companies would be seeking liability claims, civil law suits would follow.
Are these cowboy types at a VGS, and i know they are a minority, really so bullet proof as it appears????
HEDP - Firstly please don't think i was being rude, my energy here is used in typing not personal conflict.
I was merely asking questions in a thread I started.
ALL-
There would appear to be a leaning in some minds that the whole movement needs abolishing.
I can safely say that that would be a catastrophic decision in anyones eyes.
The level of responsibilty in VGS life seems to outweigh the knowledge a few people seem to have. That fact alone is worrying.
I am all too well aware that there are a great many excellent instructors in the VGS world. However there are a few that seem to spoil it for the majority. As in all walks of life.
The key and irrefutable difference between civilian flying and VGS flying is that the carpet is far lumpier in MoD portakabins.
As it has been previously stated in at least 2 other threads on here....
If anyone outside this VGS fraternity, including RAF/RN/AAC units, PPL or general civvy skygods, had a mid air collision or flown into controlled airspace, we are talking CAA and licence issues.
Insurance companies would be seeking liability claims, civil law suits would follow.
Are these cowboy types at a VGS, and i know they are a minority, really so bullet proof as it appears????
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It is 17 years since I held a G1 with 2 VGSs, both Viking, but the only occasion I broke the rules (in 450+ launches)I was torn a new @rsehole and grounded for 2 weeks (airborne at 5000ft over North Lincoln when the Red Arrows came back to Scampton - I was in receipt of a FIS from Waddington).
IIRC, the VGSs were visited at least twice each year by ACCGS Syerston, and once by CFS - does this still happen? I don't recall any particular problems of the sort mentioned here. As a staff cadet I worked my bits off for the 'free flying', but there was always the sense that those in the powered community were not having to work as hard as we were, and I hope that the comments here are not based on that sort of ill-feeling.
One thing I would say is that towards the end of my time I had to become a CI, which was a logical progression given my age and where I had got to in the Organization, but there always seemed to be the opportunity for civilians with no military or ATC background at all simply to become a CI with VGS; I was always a bit suspicious of their motives, but on the whole they were a decent bunch. Certainly I couln't fault the commitment of the 2 who used to drive up from London to Scampton every weekend.
STH
IIRC, the VGSs were visited at least twice each year by ACCGS Syerston, and once by CFS - does this still happen? I don't recall any particular problems of the sort mentioned here. As a staff cadet I worked my bits off for the 'free flying', but there was always the sense that those in the powered community were not having to work as hard as we were, and I hope that the comments here are not based on that sort of ill-feeling.
One thing I would say is that towards the end of my time I had to become a CI, which was a logical progression given my age and where I had got to in the Organization, but there always seemed to be the opportunity for civilians with no military or ATC background at all simply to become a CI with VGS; I was always a bit suspicious of their motives, but on the whole they were a decent bunch. Certainly I couln't fault the commitment of the 2 who used to drive up from London to Scampton every weekend.
STH