Reds moving to Leeming?
Move the BBMF out of Conningsby to Scampton and some of the more historic buildings at Scampton be used for museum purposes. There is every chance that a lump of cash from English Heritage could be used to pay for building refurbishment as opposed to taking it out of the Whitehall funds.
The then displaced Reds could then take the rather short
trip to Conningsby and the empty BBMF hangar. It would reduce
the need for 'joe public' to have limited access to the Typhoon base to see the BBMF and the commercial opportunities for the BBMF at the former home of Guy Gibson would be far more intesting than Conningsby.
The then displaced Reds could then take the rather short
trip to Conningsby and the empty BBMF hangar. It would reduce
the need for 'joe public' to have limited access to the Typhoon base to see the BBMF and the commercial opportunities for the BBMF at the former home of Guy Gibson would be far more intesting than Conningsby.
Only flaw would be no doubt the pilots would bleat about having to get from Conningsby to Scampton
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GeeRam - That's the slight flaw in my plan! Let me indulge in a little 'RAF Monopoly' ! Pull 100 Squadron out of Leeming down into Scampton to justify keeping the base open with the BBMF unit. The Squadron could then make up for any shortfall in pilots from Conningsby and also ease the logistics of having to take Hawk spares miles up the A.1 .
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GeeRam - where would the displacement come from if we were to move the BBMF here to Scampton? We had room for 3 Vulcan squadrons here… I’m pretty sure we can house 12 hawks and a few spitfires (Yes I know… Lanc and Dakota too…).
As for how the fighter boys would get from Coningsby to Scampton as raised earlier… Use their bl00dy cars! Or keep the Chipmunks at Coningsby and use them to transit between the two.
As for how the fighter boys would get from Coningsby to Scampton as raised earlier… Use their bl00dy cars! Or keep the Chipmunks at Coningsby and use them to transit between the two.
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F-35 decision dooms RAF Leeming
Simon McGee
Political Editor
A YORKSHIRE RAF base is set to close after failing to become the host for a future generation of RAF fighter planes, sparking concerns about "huge knock-on effects" for the local economy.
Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram announced yesterday that he could not guarantee the future of RAF Leeming, near Northallerton, once the base's current Tornados are phased out although he signalled other roles were being considered.
Leeming had been one of five air military airports nationally being considered for the new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter which is still in development but, ultimately, a Scottish base was named.
The MoD said the noise impact would be disproportionate for residents in nearby towns and villages including Bedale and Aiskew where local people had expressed fears about the new aircraft.
Last night politicians in the county said there was a good chance the facility could be given over to the Army garrison at Catterick, securing vital cash for the local economy and perhaps even safeguarding the 100 or so local jobs at the base, currently home to 1,800 military and civilian personal.
MP Anne McIntosh said: "It's effectively the end of RAF Leeming.
"And there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll find another use for the airbase.
"We need to know sooner rather than later what's really happening, to work out the implications for the local economy."
North Yorkshire County Council had stated that it recognised the importance of Leeming to the local economy but had "serious reservations" about its suitability.
Replying to a question by the Tory defence spokesman Julian Lewis about RAF Leeming, Mr Ingram said: "There are a number of work things in place that could have a very beneficial outcome for Leeming, but they're not at a mature level yet.
"We'll just have to wait and see how they play out."
North Yorkshire County Council leader John Weighell was hopeful last night that Leeming would still have a military future.
"An announcement will be made in Catterick soon that may well see the Army taking the base over," he said.
"We guessed that the sound problem for the sheer number of people living nearby would make it difficult for the new plane to be based there, but we still want it to be kept as an MoD base."
At a press conference at RAF Lossiemouth, Group Captain Russ Torbet, Station Commander at RAF Lossiemouth and Group Captain Chris Birks, Station Commander at RAF Kinloss, said the announcement secured the future of both bases for the next 30 years.
Group Captain Torbet said: "This is excellent news for the station and the local community and will ensure an RAF presence for many years to come."
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er... that press report is what we were referring-to in the first place!
...and the idea of moving 100 Sqn down to Scampton was kinda where we came in - that idea has been floating around for over a year. Although nobody would confirm it, the persistent story was that the Hawks were moving to Scampton to combine servicing assets and thus save costs. But now that Leeming's future is in the balance, it seems that the RAF is understandably keen to keep the base, so obviously it makes sense to send the Reds to Leeming, not vice versa, and this appears to be where the TV and newspaper reports came from last week. Evidently, after all the unforseen costs that have cropped-up at Scampton, the MoD can't be particularly keen to throw yet more money at Scampton while a fully-equipped airfield is going to sit vacant up at Leeming.
The Army link has been thrown about, but this was long before the F35 announcement which effectively said that Leeming was redundant. However, a small (largely unreported) comment in the defence statement mentioned that no decision had yet been made on the final batch of Typhoons and that this might have some effect on Leeming. Personally, I think that was a political red herring and even if we do get the last batch, I seriously doubt if they would go to Leeming now, even if the dear Defence Minister tries to suggest that they just might. In reality, the final batch of Typhoons is more likely to go to Cottesmore, when the MoD finally (and almost inevitably) pulls-out of whatever is left of the F35 programme.
As for the comment about whether the Reds will even survive, well it's common knowledge that the idea of transferring to Tucanos has been thrown-around for ages now, as has the possibility of disbanding the team entirely, and of course a decision will have to be made sooner or later, as the Reds' Hawks are rapidly getting ready for the scrap yard. No doubt their future will ultimately depend on whether the likes of Bae will throw any money at them in some form, and if they don't then there doesn't seem to be even a remote possibility of buying a new batch of Hawks for the team - especially when we haven't even ordered enough to sensibly re-equip 4FTS yet!
Anyway, never mind Scampton, the real victim in this saga seems to be St.Mawgan - one of the RAF's biggest and best-equipped airfields in a uniquely strategic position (the nearest major RAF site is Brize!). Now that the US Navy has indicated that they don't have any long term plan to stay at the base, the notion of basing F35's there (in order to justify the base's existence, and keep the US Navy happy) was quickly thrown-out and the base is supposedly going to be offered for "other MoD uses". Rather like Wittering, it would appear that the MoD can't afford to clear the site and give it back to its original owner, and Cornwall's councillors claim that they can't afford to operate the airport without the RAF. Meanwhile, the incredibly stupid local council claim to be delighted that the "noisy" F35's won't be going there, but haven't quite grasped that neither will anything else! What a complete farce!
...and the idea of moving 100 Sqn down to Scampton was kinda where we came in - that idea has been floating around for over a year. Although nobody would confirm it, the persistent story was that the Hawks were moving to Scampton to combine servicing assets and thus save costs. But now that Leeming's future is in the balance, it seems that the RAF is understandably keen to keep the base, so obviously it makes sense to send the Reds to Leeming, not vice versa, and this appears to be where the TV and newspaper reports came from last week. Evidently, after all the unforseen costs that have cropped-up at Scampton, the MoD can't be particularly keen to throw yet more money at Scampton while a fully-equipped airfield is going to sit vacant up at Leeming.
The Army link has been thrown about, but this was long before the F35 announcement which effectively said that Leeming was redundant. However, a small (largely unreported) comment in the defence statement mentioned that no decision had yet been made on the final batch of Typhoons and that this might have some effect on Leeming. Personally, I think that was a political red herring and even if we do get the last batch, I seriously doubt if they would go to Leeming now, even if the dear Defence Minister tries to suggest that they just might. In reality, the final batch of Typhoons is more likely to go to Cottesmore, when the MoD finally (and almost inevitably) pulls-out of whatever is left of the F35 programme.
As for the comment about whether the Reds will even survive, well it's common knowledge that the idea of transferring to Tucanos has been thrown-around for ages now, as has the possibility of disbanding the team entirely, and of course a decision will have to be made sooner or later, as the Reds' Hawks are rapidly getting ready for the scrap yard. No doubt their future will ultimately depend on whether the likes of Bae will throw any money at them in some form, and if they don't then there doesn't seem to be even a remote possibility of buying a new batch of Hawks for the team - especially when we haven't even ordered enough to sensibly re-equip 4FTS yet!
Anyway, never mind Scampton, the real victim in this saga seems to be St.Mawgan - one of the RAF's biggest and best-equipped airfields in a uniquely strategic position (the nearest major RAF site is Brize!). Now that the US Navy has indicated that they don't have any long term plan to stay at the base, the notion of basing F35's there (in order to justify the base's existence, and keep the US Navy happy) was quickly thrown-out and the base is supposedly going to be offered for "other MoD uses". Rather like Wittering, it would appear that the MoD can't afford to clear the site and give it back to its original owner, and Cornwall's councillors claim that they can't afford to operate the airport without the RAF. Meanwhile, the incredibly stupid local council claim to be delighted that the "noisy" F35's won't be going there, but haven't quite grasped that neither will anything else! What a complete farce!
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 30th Nov 2005 at 23:05.
GeeRam - where would the displacement come from if we were to move the BBMF here to Scampton? We had room for 3 Vulcan squadrons here… I’m pretty sure we can house 12 hawks and a few spitfires (Yes I know… Lanc and Dakota too…).
Gentleman Aviator
Who says that we will keep the Reds for much longer?
... but not much longer .....
.... think about it .....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
You can see where it would come in useful for Catterick as it expands...
BBC 1st Dec: Army plans for 'super garrison'
Details of £1bn expansion plans for the British Army's largest base at Catterick have been unveiled. The base is one of the Ministry of Defence's highest priorities to become a so-called 'super garrison'.
Proposals include 2,500 new houses, leisure facilities, retail outlets and up to five new barrack blocks. The development will see the North Yorkshire garrison's total population grow from 18,500 to 25,000 over the next 15 to 20 years.........
BBC 1st Dec: Army plans for 'super garrison'
Details of £1bn expansion plans for the British Army's largest base at Catterick have been unveiled. The base is one of the Ministry of Defence's highest priorities to become a so-called 'super garrison'.
Proposals include 2,500 new houses, leisure facilities, retail outlets and up to five new barrack blocks. The development will see the North Yorkshire garrison's total population grow from 18,500 to 25,000 over the next 15 to 20 years.........
The Reds moving to Leeming wouldn't have anything to do with the massive amount of airspace that Doncaster Finningley Maid Marion Sheffield Hood International have proposed for their "zone". In case you hadn't seen it I would check - soon. This proposal if allowed will close another large chunk of VFR airspace to military and civil users.
They are basically proposing 10 miles on the extended centreline to both runways sfc to FL85 plus stepped up/down airspace to the east and west. Imagine a new Leeds Zone oriented 02/20. All this for their half a movement per week! W
rs!
They are basically proposing 10 miles on the extended centreline to both runways sfc to FL85 plus stepped up/down airspace to the east and west. Imagine a new Leeds Zone oriented 02/20. All this for their half a movement per week! W
rs!
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Airspace application
...the massive amount of airspace that Doncaster Finningley Maid Marion Sheffield Hood International have proposed for their "zone". In case you hadn't seen it I would check - soon.
I think it was reported elsewhere on PPrune that they would apply in March 2006. Have you seen something already?
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The RAF should just get out of the north, they don't like it here, they don't like burberry and they don't understand the natives weird dialects.
Perhaps it's for the best that they keep out of the north, although why the north should put up with low flying whilst getting little economic benefit in the way of bases, is beyond me.
Perhaps it's for the best that they keep out of the north, although why the north should put up with low flying whilst getting little economic benefit in the way of bases, is beyond me.
Gentleman Aviator
The RAF should just get out of the north, they don't like it here,
... but one older and wiser than me advised:
Remember my boy, under their simple cotton frocks, even strange-voiced Yorkshire mill girls are completely naked.
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R313 extends no further than the Scampton MATS so I see no reason why any airspace expansion around Finningley should be a factor here. I don’t believe the RAF would end all flying Operations at Scampton just so Finningley can have some airspace to play with… Or maybe I’m wrong?
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R313 extends no further than the Scampton MATS...
Go look at the vertical dimensions of R313.
Is there room in the back of a Grob to put a nav in there? Might be of benefit...
* (This does assume, of course, that Roland's mention of step-down airspace either side of Doncaster is indeed implemented.)
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Yeah, I'd realised that. 
I would envisage that it is only the height of D313 that, if anything, would create a conflict with any potential CTA over Doncaster. I doubt the surface CTR would extend as far as that.
(Edited to add: I believe they have a standard departures that flow from Finningley to the SE, I think via the VEGUS and ROGAG intersections).
That said I've looked and failed to find anything in the public domain about an airspace application from DSA, which makes all this moot (for now).
Don't knock navs, they do have their uses - bless 'em!
I would envisage that it is only the height of D313 that, if anything, would create a conflict with any potential CTA over Doncaster. I doubt the surface CTR would extend as far as that.
(Edited to add: I believe they have a standard departures that flow from Finningley to the SE, I think via the VEGUS and ROGAG intersections).
That said I've looked and failed to find anything in the public domain about an airspace application from DSA, which makes all this moot (for now).
Don't knock navs, they do have their uses - bless 'em!
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DA,
Yes, Navs do have a use..........
Grob, I hate to be pedantic old boy, but in my time at Scampton, we had three operational Vulcan Sqns (617, 35 & 27) plus the OCU. Not to mention 1066 of course!! so your comments about enough space is more than valid!
I cannot think of a better outcome than Scampton becoming a working museum for the RAF. sadly, as has been said, its such a great idea that it will never happen!
Oh happy days....
Kind regards
TSM
Yes, Navs do have a use..........
Grob, I hate to be pedantic old boy, but in my time at Scampton, we had three operational Vulcan Sqns (617, 35 & 27) plus the OCU. Not to mention 1066 of course!! so your comments about enough space is more than valid!
I cannot think of a better outcome than Scampton becoming a working museum for the RAF. sadly, as has been said, its such a great idea that it will never happen!
Oh happy days....
Kind regards
TSM
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I'm completely confused now - how did we get into some talk about museums? Likewise, how did we get into all this fuss over airspace? As far as I can determine, nobody at Scampton, Leeming or MoD (or BBC/ITV) have ever mentioned any of these topics... talk about going-off at a tangent!
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Tim, I don't think anyone at Scampton, Leeming, the MoD or even the leading TV broadcasters ever mentioned St Mawgan (at least not in the context of the 'Reds moving to Leeming') and yet you managed to dedicate an entire paragraph to the place in your post before last. Care to re-appraise what you would consider a 'tangent'?
Generally speaking, since these rumours surfaced there have been no facts from official sources to firm them up or add meat to the bones; perhaps some folk are merely trying to thing through the various potential reasons why the Reds might be slated for such a move, if at all.
As for talking about airspace, it was mentioned as early as the third post in this thread and has been a subject tossed into the mix a regular intervals thereafter. If the MoD know something we don't viz impending local airspace changes, this could be a driver for a move - just as much as doing 'something' to keep Leeming in business could be.
Generally speaking, since these rumours surfaced there have been no facts from official sources to firm them up or add meat to the bones; perhaps some folk are merely trying to thing through the various potential reasons why the Reds might be slated for such a move, if at all.
As for talking about airspace, it was mentioned as early as the third post in this thread and has been a subject tossed into the mix a regular intervals thereafter. If the MoD know something we don't viz impending local airspace changes, this could be a driver for a move - just as much as doing 'something' to keep Leeming in business could be.