Sar
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: midlands
Age: 59
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Not again!
Do we really have to go round this buoy again and again.
Currently, we have an IPT who are actively working various solutions. Unless something has changed, and I think not, we have a commitment to have military personnel in SAR under SAR H - you will note I said personnel not a platform replacement program.
Why, Not for medals but for skills, its a growing ground for skills that we - the military - wish to maintain. Now you can argue untill the cows come home over what value that really does give to the SH force but, thats what has been stated.
SARowl, C2 is where there must be a question, personal view - you have to have military C2 for mil operators. However, there are examples where the military work the other way round. At the end of the day its all about money. If, and I say IF, the money dries up then either the program moves right or you then question why we have military in SAR. Oh, but if the money dries up and you make that jump to zero mil presence then who pays for SAR? It will then have to come out of the DTI or direct from the treasury, as opposed to the Mil budget. That sounds like a delay again too, because they would have to form a group to study the problem etc etc etc etc
Crab, I know you, you are not normally this pessimistic - or at least last time we met you were'nt. Things must be bad!
Do we really have to go round this buoy again and again.
Currently, we have an IPT who are actively working various solutions. Unless something has changed, and I think not, we have a commitment to have military personnel in SAR under SAR H - you will note I said personnel not a platform replacement program.
Why, Not for medals but for skills, its a growing ground for skills that we - the military - wish to maintain. Now you can argue untill the cows come home over what value that really does give to the SH force but, thats what has been stated.
SARowl, C2 is where there must be a question, personal view - you have to have military C2 for mil operators. However, there are examples where the military work the other way round. At the end of the day its all about money. If, and I say IF, the money dries up then either the program moves right or you then question why we have military in SAR. Oh, but if the money dries up and you make that jump to zero mil presence then who pays for SAR? It will then have to come out of the DTI or direct from the treasury, as opposed to the Mil budget. That sounds like a delay again too, because they would have to form a group to study the problem etc etc etc etc
Crab, I know you, you are not normally this pessimistic - or at least last time we met you were'nt. Things must be bad!
SARREMF - not pessimistic but I think I can see the writing on the wall for Mil SAR, other than good PR we don't provide any of the 'core business' of the MOD. The 'rest tour for SH' and the 'distribution of skills' argument are valid but in no way overwhelming, especially when it comes to money.
Just like when a station gets closed after new buildings and investment, I think the death knell for the SAR force sounded when the MOD stated there would be a continued military presence in SAR. I am afraid that a mixed civvy/mil SAR flight just wouldn't work - too many conflicts of interest (pay, rules, working conditions, time off, check rides, deployments.....etc).
Frankly since the end result seems inevitable, we should 'cut to the chase' and make 2007 the full implementation of SAR going to MCA control, DTI funding and CHC as service providers. Why pi** about trying to keep the Sea King going well past its sell-by date, wasting money on engineering contracts to support said machine and generally firefighting to prolong the agony of something which is long overdue for a change.
Just like when a station gets closed after new buildings and investment, I think the death knell for the SAR force sounded when the MOD stated there would be a continued military presence in SAR. I am afraid that a mixed civvy/mil SAR flight just wouldn't work - too many conflicts of interest (pay, rules, working conditions, time off, check rides, deployments.....etc).
Frankly since the end result seems inevitable, we should 'cut to the chase' and make 2007 the full implementation of SAR going to MCA control, DTI funding and CHC as service providers. Why pi** about trying to keep the Sea King going well past its sell-by date, wasting money on engineering contracts to support said machine and generally firefighting to prolong the agony of something which is long overdue for a change.
Bertie - only the retirement one and then not for another 11 years!
Green Flash - the SARForce does not do CSAR in any way shape or form, just because CSAR includes SAR in the title doesn't make it the same. I don't think a bright yellow helicopter sat in a 50' hover is the most tactical of options. CSAR is a Combat and therefore SH role.
Green Flash - the SARForce does not do CSAR in any way shape or form, just because CSAR includes SAR in the title doesn't make it the same. I don't think a bright yellow helicopter sat in a 50' hover is the most tactical of options. CSAR is a Combat and therefore SH role.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tamil Nadu
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Some interesting assumptions being made on this thread! So I'll make a few more from some snippets I have gleaned recently.
SAR H - will definitely be a PFI. Platform buy to be in the order of £900m/£300m respectively civ/MoD. Platform yet to be decided but will replace Mk3a, Mk5 HAS and civ S61. IOC by 2015 with FOC by 2017. Alledgedly 100 mil personnel - that's across the board ie absolute max total.
I believe S92 and AB139 are two of the options that will be considered. EC225 not mentioned but that doesn't discount it alongwith CH149 etc.
It is not intended to buy a single platform capability replacement for the Sea King but a mix n match of two, thus giving a more agile, economic! type capability alongside a heavier/longer range more expensive!! capability.
Basing will reduce from the current no of mil stations and significantly from what I recall.
SAR H - will definitely be a PFI. Platform buy to be in the order of £900m/£300m respectively civ/MoD. Platform yet to be decided but will replace Mk3a, Mk5 HAS and civ S61. IOC by 2015 with FOC by 2017. Alledgedly 100 mil personnel - that's across the board ie absolute max total.
I believe S92 and AB139 are two of the options that will be considered. EC225 not mentioned but that doesn't discount it alongwith CH149 etc.
It is not intended to buy a single platform capability replacement for the Sea King but a mix n match of two, thus giving a more agile, economic! type capability alongside a heavier/longer range more expensive!! capability.
Basing will reduce from the current no of mil stations and significantly from what I recall.
Join Date: May 2004
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Personally, if your gonna civilianise it go the whole hog and let the other helo forces have the mil manpower.
Partnerships always prove prickly from my experience so lets cut and run now. There'll be plenty who will off rank tabs and blend into the background and just like Mr Benn will reappear as if by magic sporting white stripes!
Partnerships always prove prickly from my experience so lets cut and run now. There'll be plenty who will off rank tabs and blend into the background and just like Mr Benn will reappear as if by magic sporting white stripes!
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Aberdeen
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I have read this thread with interest as my last tour was in the ARCC, not surprised at the sentiments shown here as it seems symptomatic of all that is going on in the Royal Air Force and the militairy just now.
That said, in my current line of work as a Radio Operator on the Rigs I would just like to say that SAR crews are held in VERY high regard by all who work offshore. We are well aware that if the poo hits the fan in a serious way just who is coming for us. Just last week R128 took a man from our standby vessel who had a suspected heart attack .. Nice job and many thanks to those involved.
Decided to post this as I was checking my home area's website and came across a thread praising those involved in SAR Helo operations. Lossie were involved in that incident I believe, search for a missing fisherman. Not good at doing links but please check out www.caithness.org , General Chat on the message board, thread is called "Brave Men".
That said, in my current line of work as a Radio Operator on the Rigs I would just like to say that SAR crews are held in VERY high regard by all who work offshore. We are well aware that if the poo hits the fan in a serious way just who is coming for us. Just last week R128 took a man from our standby vessel who had a suspected heart attack .. Nice job and many thanks to those involved.
Decided to post this as I was checking my home area's website and came across a thread praising those involved in SAR Helo operations. Lossie were involved in that incident I believe, search for a missing fisherman. Not good at doing links but please check out www.caithness.org , General Chat on the message board, thread is called "Brave Men".
