Iraq murder trial charges dropped
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Lowlevel UK
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Happy to oblige with an explanation RedTop. Just seeking some comment from ORAC that his original post on an advocate who has covered aircrew at Courts Martial has transmogrified into a discussion between press and judiciary reps on an incident concerning the Army. Seems a strange bedfellow for this particular forum.
but if I want to quote other posters in my replies on this forum, how do I lift them?
Anyway incase that was a mistake, select and copy the required text on the screen with your mouse. On the "Reply" page click on the "Quote" button and paste your text in the little window that opens and voila!
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fife, Scotland
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Data Lynx,
I don't think I hijacked the post, the thread had started to drift a little before I got involved.
MightyGem,
I tried the old cut and paste job but it's not having it for some reason.
Kind regards,
Spawn
I don't think I hijacked the post, the thread had started to drift a little before I got involved.
MightyGem,
I tried the old cut and paste job but it's not having it for some reason.
Kind regards,
Spawn
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Lowlevel UK
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The FAQs on inserting quotes within the body of the post may help you with multiple quotes. As for copy/paste, try pasting into Notepad first and then copy/paste into a Reply.
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Gilbert Blades is a barrister
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 47
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have met GB on a number of occassions. He has, sometimes, annoyed the JA by droning on (What is your point, Mr Blades?) but, generally, knows his stuff inside out. I seem to recollect, though, that he is much better at mitigation than getting them off scot free.
Gentleman Aviator
And one advantage that Blades has as a solicitor is that one can approach him directly, which would not be the case were he a barrister.
He certainly has a good track record, but I've not been overly impresssed when I've seen him in action I have to say (RAF CMs only) ....
... but then you don't need to be a Premiership goalkeeper if you are only facing Vauxhall Conference strikers!!
He certainly has a good track record, but I've not been overly impresssed when I've seen him in action I have to say (RAF CMs only) ....
... but then you don't need to be a Premiership goalkeeper if you are only facing Vauxhall Conference strikers!!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Racedo blows goats
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reminds me of the old line about a question on the police entrance exam:
Q. How do you break an egg.
Pink: I didn't, it fell down the stairs and broke itself.
Regards
Retard
Q. How do you break an egg.
Pink: I didn't, it fell down the stairs and broke itself.
Regards
Retard
One day, we'll find 'Our Boys' have gone
I commend the lead article in Simon Heffer's column. I doubt if many (any?) on this forum would disagree with what he expresses so well.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../05/do0501.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../05/do0501.xml
The core of Mr Heffer's argument is that the Government's is showing disloyalty to our troops, in order to appease critics and minorities, by being "ready to go to enormous lengths to prove that the ordinary brave Tommy is, in fact, a seething, wicked war criminal.
Mr Heffer has decided that those charged in this case were "seven fine soldiers" whose reputations have been besmirched. He's entitled to his opinion, of course. He may even be right. It's certainly the case that whatever happened bore little relation to the fantastical tales told by some of the witnesses.
But someone did beat this young Iraqi to death, and the case against these seven was strong enough that their CO thought that they should answer it.
Now you might consider that the Government showed disloyalty to this individual patrol (if you ignore the evidence that allowed a prosecution to be attempted at all) by allowing them to be court martialled at all.
But it's a stretch to suggest that by allowing a court martial against seven soldiers perceived (perhaps wrongly, which would be disgraceful) to be bad apples who had besmirched the reputation of the British Army, the Government was attacking 'ordinary brave Tommies'.
Surely by taking action against possible thugs and murderers, it was showing quite clearly that such people were not acceptable, nor representative of the Army as a whole.
There seems to be some kind of unspoken idea that these seven should have been immune from prosecution, even if they had suspected of beating an unarmed man to death, because to question their actions is somehow a blow to the entire armed forces.
The system worked, they were found not guilty. What's the problem?
Mr Heffer has decided that those charged in this case were "seven fine soldiers" whose reputations have been besmirched. He's entitled to his opinion, of course. He may even be right. It's certainly the case that whatever happened bore little relation to the fantastical tales told by some of the witnesses.
But someone did beat this young Iraqi to death, and the case against these seven was strong enough that their CO thought that they should answer it.
Now you might consider that the Government showed disloyalty to this individual patrol (if you ignore the evidence that allowed a prosecution to be attempted at all) by allowing them to be court martialled at all.
But it's a stretch to suggest that by allowing a court martial against seven soldiers perceived (perhaps wrongly, which would be disgraceful) to be bad apples who had besmirched the reputation of the British Army, the Government was attacking 'ordinary brave Tommies'.
Surely by taking action against possible thugs and murderers, it was showing quite clearly that such people were not acceptable, nor representative of the Army as a whole.
There seems to be some kind of unspoken idea that these seven should have been immune from prosecution, even if they had suspected of beating an unarmed man to death, because to question their actions is somehow a blow to the entire armed forces.
The system worked, they were found not guilty. What's the problem?
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Shropshire
Age: 73
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The case should never have been brought to any court given the lack of credibility of the Iraqi witnesses. And if the so called victim hasn't been found ?
It is amazing, isnt it, that even with all the turmoil in Iraq that these people are street savvy enough to know that if claims are made, we will pursue them out of political bloody mindedness.
Its not enough that while we do your dirty work, we must not only be above reproach, we must be absolute Saints in adversity.
Doesn't work that way in real conflict, especially when you witness the near hysteria of any Iraqi faction after being whipped into a frenzy by what normally amounts to street rumour. Jacko, I think you should acquaint yourself with the nature of the average Iraqi after years of institutionalised brutality and their sudden awareness of the pot of gold at the end of the litigation rainbow. The Germans did it for years - every farm in W Germany must have been rebuilt courtesy of the claims commission
It is amazing, isnt it, that even with all the turmoil in Iraq that these people are street savvy enough to know that if claims are made, we will pursue them out of political bloody mindedness.
Its not enough that while we do your dirty work, we must not only be above reproach, we must be absolute Saints in adversity.
Doesn't work that way in real conflict, especially when you witness the near hysteria of any Iraqi faction after being whipped into a frenzy by what normally amounts to street rumour. Jacko, I think you should acquaint yourself with the nature of the average Iraqi after years of institutionalised brutality and their sudden awareness of the pot of gold at the end of the litigation rainbow. The Germans did it for years - every farm in W Germany must have been rebuilt courtesy of the claims commission
Lyneham Lad,
Afraid I do!
The forces would be in no different position if there was a Tory Govt, they would still be in Iraq, they would still be in Afghanistan, they would still have gone into Kosovo and the only difference in the budget and equipment situation is that there would be a good deal more privatisation and civilianisation and no more money.
JN,
All you say would be true IF there was a body! As there is not even a death certificate or a grave then the whole thing smacks of a cock up of gigantic proportions.
Stafford,
It was the Royal Military Police who pursued this prosecution, NOT the Labour party or Tony Blair!
Afraid I do!
The forces would be in no different position if there was a Tory Govt, they would still be in Iraq, they would still be in Afghanistan, they would still have gone into Kosovo and the only difference in the budget and equipment situation is that there would be a good deal more privatisation and civilianisation and no more money.
JN,
All you say would be true IF there was a body! As there is not even a death certificate or a grave then the whole thing smacks of a cock up of gigantic proportions.
Stafford,
It was the Royal Military Police who pursued this prosecution, NOT the Labour party or Tony Blair!
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Shropshire
Age: 73
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Proone
Anyone who can't see the dead hand of Goldsmith and Noo Labour at work in influencing the desire to prosecute these lads is really myopic.
Of course it was a malicious, politically motivated prosecution.
The whole Blair project is guilty of the greatest incompetence and sleight of hand ever seen in it's schitzophrenic attitude to those doing their dirty work for them in Iraq.
Professor Kelly's family will vouch for my sentiments too I believe !
Anyone who can't see the dead hand of Goldsmith and Noo Labour at work in influencing the desire to prosecute these lads is really myopic.
Of course it was a malicious, politically motivated prosecution.
The whole Blair project is guilty of the greatest incompetence and sleight of hand ever seen in it's schitzophrenic attitude to those doing their dirty work for them in Iraq.Professor Kelly's family will vouch for my sentiments too I believe !
TAC Int Bloke
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Prosecution is binned at stage 1
Media reaction - Government cover-up, protecting war-criminals, British soldiers worse than Saddam, illegal war bla
Prosecution given go-ahead even though it's iffy
Media reaction* - Not backing 'our boys', arse covering, lack of responsibility at top, illegal war etc
The government dammed if they did, dammed if they don’t
WWMD?
*insert reactionary PPRuNers to taste
Media reaction - Government cover-up, protecting war-criminals, British soldiers worse than Saddam, illegal war bla
Prosecution given go-ahead even though it's iffy
Media reaction* - Not backing 'our boys', arse covering, lack of responsibility at top, illegal war etc
The government dammed if they did, dammed if they don’t
WWMD?
*insert reactionary PPRuNers to taste
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: SE England
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jacko - in the run-up to the last General Election various Labour ministers were touring constituencies with large Muslim populations desperately trying to recover some of the votes they knew they'd lost because of Iraq. It was about this time they 'took over' prosecutions that had been dropped by the military and pressed ahead with them.
They also published a series of leaflets emphasising the 'Jewishness' of Tory leader Howard and his No.2 Letwin, and had letters published in 'Muslim News' remarking on Israel/Palestine and what would Howard and Letwin do to help the Palestinians.
On a related note, I believe that most of the complainants in these cases have been assisted by UK solicitor Phil Shiner, who, if I'm not mistaken, also represented many of the Kenyans who brought claims against the MoD a while ago. Firstly for injuries caused by munitions allegedly left on a Kenyan range by the British Army, and even though millions was paid out many of the claims have since been discovered to be utterly fraudulent - the real cause of injury ranging from car accidents to falling on a fire whilst drunk. No matter, UK PLC paid out anyway because, as a leaked government memo revealed, the alleged victims were planning to visit, and the thought of hundreds of one-legged Kenyans protesting outside Downing Street was too awful to contemplate. More recently there were numerous allegations of rape and the inevitable demands for compensation, although fortunately after the munitions scam some UK newspapers looked more closely and found almost all the 'victims' were lying and it then all went very quiet.
I speak as a mere outsider, even worse, an OASC reject, but to me the whole thing stinks to high heaven -- an ungodly mixture of political correctness and sordid vote-grabbing. It's one thing to throw millions of pounds down the drain as in the Kenyan farce, but to actually criminally prosecute people doing their job under desperate circumstances in Iraq is frankly obscene.
They also published a series of leaflets emphasising the 'Jewishness' of Tory leader Howard and his No.2 Letwin, and had letters published in 'Muslim News' remarking on Israel/Palestine and what would Howard and Letwin do to help the Palestinians.
On a related note, I believe that most of the complainants in these cases have been assisted by UK solicitor Phil Shiner, who, if I'm not mistaken, also represented many of the Kenyans who brought claims against the MoD a while ago. Firstly for injuries caused by munitions allegedly left on a Kenyan range by the British Army, and even though millions was paid out many of the claims have since been discovered to be utterly fraudulent - the real cause of injury ranging from car accidents to falling on a fire whilst drunk. No matter, UK PLC paid out anyway because, as a leaked government memo revealed, the alleged victims were planning to visit, and the thought of hundreds of one-legged Kenyans protesting outside Downing Street was too awful to contemplate. More recently there were numerous allegations of rape and the inevitable demands for compensation, although fortunately after the munitions scam some UK newspapers looked more closely and found almost all the 'victims' were lying and it then all went very quiet.
I speak as a mere outsider, even worse, an OASC reject, but to me the whole thing stinks to high heaven -- an ungodly mixture of political correctness and sordid vote-grabbing. It's one thing to throw millions of pounds down the drain as in the Kenyan farce, but to actually criminally prosecute people doing their job under desperate circumstances in Iraq is frankly obscene.
but to actually criminally prosecute people doing their job under desperate circumstances in Iraq is frankly obscene.
An article in the Mail today claimed that the Radio Logs put the accused patrol miles away from the location of the supposed incident?
Surely if this was the case, how the hell did the 'case' get as far as it did?
And this whole sorry episode has apparently cost some £8m as well......
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"And this whole sorry episode has apparently cost some £8m as well"...............no doubt a whole bunch of pr00nites are rubbing their collective hands in glee
Lawyers or Mugabe.....not much to choose
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Lawyers or Mugabe.....not much to choose
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Shropshire
Age: 73
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Proone
The prosecutions and investigations are just a sop to the old guard of Noo Labour who are quite rightly uncomfortable with Blair's war, but typically have nobody else to vent their spleen on.
In their cosy Utopian world, they see servicemen who operate in the hot zone as some kind of HSE or social workers.
The Government are just preparing to investigate and (hopefully on their part) prosecute members of HM Forces who served in NI against the psychopathic killers of either hue over thirty plus years there.
All part of Blair's shabby deal with the IRA/Sinn Fein to continue to target prosecutions of British servicemen and women whilst giving amnesty to the murderous b
s from the dregs of the Loyalist and Republican cause(s).
Not Blair Proone ?
The prosecutions and investigations are just a sop to the old guard of Noo Labour who are quite rightly uncomfortable with Blair's war, but typically have nobody else to vent their spleen on.
In their cosy Utopian world, they see servicemen who operate in the hot zone as some kind of HSE or social workers.
The Government are just preparing to investigate and (hopefully on their part) prosecute members of HM Forces who served in NI against the psychopathic killers of either hue over thirty plus years there.
All part of Blair's shabby deal with the IRA/Sinn Fein to continue to target prosecutions of British servicemen and women whilst giving amnesty to the murderous b
s from the dregs of the Loyalist and Republican cause(s). Not Blair Proone ?
stafford,
Oh right stafford, the RMP and the SIB are directly under the influence of the old guard of the Labour party! How on earth do you work that one out?
Once again, it bears repetition, it’s NOT the Government or the Labour party doing the investigating, it is the Special Investigation Branch of the British Army Royal Military Police.
As for NI, you may not have noticed but that “shabby deal” has actually brought peace to that troubled isle, I suppose you think it would have been more honourable if people were still shooting each other dead and innocent men women and children were being blown apart and losing limbs on a weekly basis.
No, stafford, NOT Blair!
Oh right stafford, the RMP and the SIB are directly under the influence of the old guard of the Labour party! How on earth do you work that one out?
Once again, it bears repetition, it’s NOT the Government or the Labour party doing the investigating, it is the Special Investigation Branch of the British Army Royal Military Police.
As for NI, you may not have noticed but that “shabby deal” has actually brought peace to that troubled isle, I suppose you think it would have been more honourable if people were still shooting each other dead and innocent men women and children were being blown apart and losing limbs on a weekly basis.
No, stafford, NOT Blair!