Dara
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A further query then. Are all these job losses from the hands on engineers----or---do they also include those in management roles--if not capability. So far, I have seen no mention of the latter, just the skilled workers etc.
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Of course they are saving money. There not spending it, so therefore they must be saving it. I agree that, that money may not yet exist AND it will probably be spent on something much more worthwhile (CVS) ....but, by closing St Ath then the Govt ARE saving money.
..........
Dear Your airships,
Having spend a miserable and wet weekend at RAF St Ath in the 1980's, would it be possible if I were to be given the honour of turning the lights out.
Yours VVHA
..........
Dear Your airships,
Having spend a miserable and wet weekend at RAF St Ath in the 1980's, would it be possible if I were to be given the honour of turning the lights out.
Yours VVHA
Gentleman Aviator
Is this the end of RAF St.Athan now?
RAF St Athan (strictly RAF Support Unit St Athan) will cease to be on or about April next year. However, lots of blue suits, primarily 4 S of TT, will remain, and may even incerase in numbers as a result of DTR. OC 4 School will acquire the support elements from the Staish and take on (I suppose) some of his roles. The whole site will be run as a single MoD site by Defence Estates.
The Officers Mess (shared with the Army!) will remain - although Wally the barman retired last year, and it's not been the same since!
The (very) long term plan has always been a "Balkan" solution, cutting the site up into a number of separate sites (Army, RAF, WDA and what was to be DARA), so the demise of DARA St Athan doesn't mean the end of the RAF at St Athan - and that's not to mention UWAS - soon to be joined (allegedly) by an AEF.
do they also include those in management roles
a bunch of retired Gp Capts and Wg Cdrs
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Teeteringhead-----Thanks for the reply and clarification. It will be interesting to see how many actually do relocate when Head Office moves--given the choices are limited as it were anyway--and even more so if your prediction of Sealand comes true--and as I enquired previously, has the closure of the RAF component at Sealand been put "on hold" or is it still in progress at all ? I have various reasons for asking btw--so this is not simply a curious question.
Missed all of the actual decisions but a quick question on the large ac side of the house. Haven't Brize just got rid of 2nd(?) line to free up space and because of our old favourite - Leaning? 
With a cunning plan to move 2nd line to.............St Athan! What will be the impact now?
prOOne
Decisions out on Brigade v Service v Force. Some are Brigades and some are Services, Met Police are a Service, but other remain a Force.
With a cunning plan to move 2nd line to.............St Athan! What will be the impact now?prOOne
Decisions out on Brigade v Service v Force. Some are Brigades and some are Services, Met Police are a Service, but other remain a Force.
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Pr00ne,
Quote from BBC News (Wales) website -
I think he used the word SAVE there!
Fire Brigade/service - same as you can't call them firemen anymore, they are all firefighters now. It was an official edict from the fire service management (well in London anyway!!).
Quote from BBC News (Wales) website -
Mr Ingram said the changes would save £2bn by 2010-11 and would significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft.
Fire Brigade/service - same as you can't call them firemen anymore, they are all firefighters now. It was an official edict from the fire service management (well in London anyway!!).
Cashmachine,
But not saved FROM the Defence budget, just spent on something else within it!
That most militant bunch the Trade Union that represents most firefighters, a less military minded lot you could not come across, is still the FBU
Fire Brigades Union.
I guess you can't call them FireMEN now on account of all those women who don't like to be called MEN! Real PC right?
But not saved FROM the Defence budget, just spent on something else within it!
That most militant bunch the Trade Union that represents most firefighters, a less military minded lot you could not come across, is still the FBU
Fire Brigades Union.
I guess you can't call them FireMEN now on account of all those women who don't like to be called MEN! Real PC right?
Last edited by pr00ne; 9th Nov 2005 at 18:20.
HOODED
____________________________________________________
"Jobza, do you really believe that extensions won't be brought back in later when the flexability of being able to stagger ac into maintenance is needed."
____________________________________________________
Ah, but under PULSE / JUMP maintenance, whatever, you won't be able to move the servicing time as the plot is rigid. Remember INflexibility is now the key to modern air power!
I totally agree with your post; aircraft being flown longer, there will also be fewer a/c on each sqn (GR4 anyway). But what happens if an aircraft needing extra work begins to delay the whole PULSE line? It gets moved aside and forgotten about until manpower is available to fix it........when? I'm led to believe this has happened in Harrierworld already.
SO, with the planned increase in Flying Hours / CFT; rigid maintenance plots; almost 2000 TG1/2 redundancies; and LEAN, I wonder where we will be in two years time.
JG
____________________________________________________
"Jobza, do you really believe that extensions won't be brought back in later when the flexability of being able to stagger ac into maintenance is needed."
____________________________________________________
Ah, but under PULSE / JUMP maintenance, whatever, you won't be able to move the servicing time as the plot is rigid. Remember INflexibility is now the key to modern air power!
I totally agree with your post; aircraft being flown longer, there will also be fewer a/c on each sqn (GR4 anyway). But what happens if an aircraft needing extra work begins to delay the whole PULSE line? It gets moved aside and forgotten about until manpower is available to fix it........when? I'm led to believe this has happened in Harrierworld already.
SO, with the planned increase in Flying Hours / CFT; rigid maintenance plots; almost 2000 TG1/2 redundancies; and LEAN, I wonder where we will be in two years time.
JG
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Jobza, you are absolutely right it has already happened in the Harrier world. You can only move the odd ac to the side of pulse. What happens when every ac that comes in needs a CAT3 repair and their is no repair drawing for it yet. Oh and BTW the BAe senior stress man is on his holidays so the new scheme drawn up to repair this particular problem can't be signed off.
Guess we'll all have to see what the future brings, I only hope my fears are not realised. Having pulled the yellow and black I still feel for those left behind to do more with less. What was it I was once quoted by a member of the Harrier IPT? Oh yes "We've been doing so much with so little for so long that now everyone expects everything with nothing!"
Guess we'll all have to see what the future brings, I only hope my fears are not realised. Having pulled the yellow and black I still feel for those left behind to do more with less. What was it I was once quoted by a member of the Harrier IPT? Oh yes "We've been doing so much with so little for so long that now everyone expects everything with nothing!"
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HOODED
What you do (rightly or wrongly) is you put the shoe on the other foot and pay industry to provide availability of platforms.
I do not condone the power by the hour approach, but holding back a companies income for not repairing a Cat 3 jet focuses the minds of the accountants when the senior stress man is on holiday.
Have to agree with prOOne, budgets are increasing, but when your commitments grow quicker than your income, something has to give.
Agency status has F**KED a world class deep maintenance facility.
What you do (rightly or wrongly) is you put the shoe on the other foot and pay industry to provide availability of platforms.
I do not condone the power by the hour approach, but holding back a companies income for not repairing a Cat 3 jet focuses the minds of the accountants when the senior stress man is on holiday.
Have to agree with prOOne, budgets are increasing, but when your commitments grow quicker than your income, something has to give.
Agency status has F**KED a world class deep maintenance facility.
Gentleman Aviator
Roland P
VC10 work will remain at St Athan, but it won't be done by DARA, (might well be the same blokes with different badges on their ovies). It will be put up for sale and the work done by whoever buys it!
At present the work done by DARA on the VC10 is technically as a sub-contractor for BAe, so they may be a contender to buy the operation. So, from DARA's point of view, the only money-making bit at St A is getting flogged off!!
VC10 work will remain at St Athan, but it won't be done by DARA, (might well be the same blokes with different badges on their ovies). It will be put up for sale and the work done by whoever buys it!
At present the work done by DARA on the VC10 is technically as a sub-contractor for BAe, so they may be a contender to buy the operation. So, from DARA's point of view, the only money-making bit at St A is getting flogged off!!
It’s sad to see DARA in decline because, I for one, held them in great esteem at one time; albeit when they were still separate RAF/RN sites. I include 14MU workshops and, especially, RNARW Copenacre. MoD avionic Depth B/C repair, and therefore availability, never got over the decision to do away with the concept of RNARW’s Depth B/C Filter Benches. Their very existence mitigated, at a stroke, most the risks associated with 1st and 2nd Line. The amount of “No Fault Founds” getting back to 3rd and 4th Line rocketed overnight, with no compensatory increase in resources to deal with it.
Coupled with various beancounter and grocer initiatives, like the implementation of AP830 DM87 (incompetence, waste, and some would say fraud because the waste was known about and ignored at the highest level, on the grandest scale) and “Just in Time”, meant DARA got an undeserved bad name. They still get hammered by the user for not delivering on time, but you’ll find that the problem is often unavailability of spares, and simply not under their control. They haven’t arrived “on time”. (Or, they haven’t been bought in the first place). Incredibly, this is especially so on components like rotor heads, engines and transmissions where you know, years in advance, precisely what spares you will need, when, from whom and how much they will cost. There is simply no excuse. From what I gather, DARA are good at such forward planning, but are let down by providers.
But in more recent years (late 90s-on) parts of DARA have shot themselves in the foot. The beginning of the end (in my opinion) was their declaration that “We don’t regard MoD as a customer”. While later withdrawn, the damage was done in large parts of DPA (PE) and DLO (AML). Skilled staff clocked onto waiting time (paid for by MoD), and DPA/DLO having to find money to contract industry to do something that was DARA’s bread and butter. Like DM87 above, effectively paying for the same thing twice. (Such a common occurrence, one would think it policy). I never went back to them after that.
Coupled with various beancounter and grocer initiatives, like the implementation of AP830 DM87 (incompetence, waste, and some would say fraud because the waste was known about and ignored at the highest level, on the grandest scale) and “Just in Time”, meant DARA got an undeserved bad name. They still get hammered by the user for not delivering on time, but you’ll find that the problem is often unavailability of spares, and simply not under their control. They haven’t arrived “on time”. (Or, they haven’t been bought in the first place). Incredibly, this is especially so on components like rotor heads, engines and transmissions where you know, years in advance, precisely what spares you will need, when, from whom and how much they will cost. There is simply no excuse. From what I gather, DARA are good at such forward planning, but are let down by providers.
But in more recent years (late 90s-on) parts of DARA have shot themselves in the foot. The beginning of the end (in my opinion) was their declaration that “We don’t regard MoD as a customer”. While later withdrawn, the damage was done in large parts of DPA (PE) and DLO (AML). Skilled staff clocked onto waiting time (paid for by MoD), and DPA/DLO having to find money to contract industry to do something that was DARA’s bread and butter. Like DM87 above, effectively paying for the same thing twice. (Such a common occurrence, one would think it policy). I never went back to them after that.
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The beginning of the end (in my opinion) was their declaration that “We don’t regard MoD as a customer”.
In any case, whatever banner the guys at St Athan worked under, the fact remains that they will clock off for the last time on 30 April 2007, and that's going to be a sad day in my eyes.
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Roadster,
The "W@nkers" comment referred to Chairman Tony, TCH, John Reid and the "Main Building Brain Trust" who thought up this Chinese Fire Drill of a policy, not to mention the fcukwits at the WDA who squandered millions of pounds on St Athan when anyone in their right mind new that trying to operate the site as a business would never work.
By the way, what's the latest gen on the runway extension that would be necessary for the big hangar to even stand chance of doing something more productive than house the 1st Bn, Welsh Guards' MT? I bet the members of the Golf Club are getting pretty anxious...
The "W@nkers" comment referred to Chairman Tony, TCH, John Reid and the "Main Building Brain Trust" who thought up this Chinese Fire Drill of a policy, not to mention the fcukwits at the WDA who squandered millions of pounds on St Athan when anyone in their right mind new that trying to operate the site as a business would never work.
By the way, what's the latest gen on the runway extension that would be necessary for the big hangar to even stand chance of doing something more productive than house the 1st Bn, Welsh Guards' MT? I bet the members of the Golf Club are getting pretty anxious...
“I'm not sure that DARA could have ever said such a thing, given that MOD work has always constituted over 90% of their income. They may have said and done some odd things, but I simply can't believe this one”.
Sorry. Know it’s hard to believe, but….. Stated by the guy responsible (at the particular unit) for bringing in work. Meeting minuted by his own staff. Circulated. Checked. Double checked. Wouldn’t have got the money to pay industry to do the work without triple checking. As I said, they later withdrew, but once bitten…….
Sorry. Know it’s hard to believe, but….. Stated by the guy responsible (at the particular unit) for bringing in work. Meeting minuted by his own staff. Circulated. Checked. Double checked. Wouldn’t have got the money to pay industry to do the work without triple checking. As I said, they later withdrew, but once bitten…….
Gentleman Aviator
the runway extension that would be necessary
...Welsh Guards MT must be looking up, there's been a lot of 737s in the hangar lately...
... the Transavia 737-800 that landed yesterday morning (admittedly with getting on for 20 kts on the nose) stopped and turned off in about 3500 ft ........
.... you might be surprised how little runway is required for jets configured for MRO ... they don't always have the 18-30 Club and loadsa duty free on board you know....
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Teetering,
Well, D'uh. But there have long been plans to extend the runway to the East- (the 25 end). At one point I even heard a bizarre rumour of there being a TUNNEL for the road that passes Eate Gate/Legoland.
I haven't been back there since the new hangar opened, it sounds like you are on the ground there, so perhaps you can fill in some of the gaps. How much trade is it doing? Is there any news on whether it could actually survive as a comerical enterprise or will it require vast infusions of WDA subsidies to keep it in place? Has their turn-around time improved from their efforts on the FJs? I imagine a commercial customer would not be as tolerant as the MoD of a jet that is hopelessly late getting back into service.
Well, D'uh.
But there have long been plans to extend the runway to the East- (the 25 end). At one point I even heard a bizarre rumour of there being a TUNNEL for the road that passes Eate Gate/Legoland. I haven't been back there since the new hangar opened, it sounds like you are on the ground there, so perhaps you can fill in some of the gaps. How much trade is it doing? Is there any news on whether it could actually survive as a comerical enterprise or will it require vast infusions of WDA subsidies to keep it in place? Has their turn-around time improved from their efforts on the FJs? I imagine a commercial customer would not be as tolerant as the MoD of a jet that is hopelessly late getting back into service.
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Quite a lot has changed at St Athan recently, so I hear. The VC10 hangar "Twin Peaks" has been rented to ATC Lasham for them to add winglets to 737s of the cheaper European variety. VC10s have decanted into the Superhangar. Only one of the three new hangars has any real FJ activity.
DARA was never likely to attract civil work without a sufficient base of military activity to make their cost rates competitive - and their own study concuded this in 2004. Since then they have not tried to address the civil market.
The End To End debacle has simply accelerated the decline in fast jet work - they really were "shafted by the spearhead" in the end.
DARA was never likely to attract civil work without a sufficient base of military activity to make their cost rates competitive - and their own study concuded this in 2004. Since then they have not tried to address the civil market.
The End To End debacle has simply accelerated the decline in fast jet work - they really were "shafted by the spearhead" in the end.
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At the present, one VC 10 is in the white elephant. (That being one of the scrapped K4s). The Minor team will take over on completion of the last scrappie, in Feb 06.
The plan is for the Major team to move into the elephant in December. Lashams have one half of twin peaks until then.
I believe that they have an 18 month contract, whilst their hangar is being upgraded somewhere.
Two of the 10s were in one of the pods last week. It was only then you can see how large the building really is. Even with these types there was plenty of room.
The general feeling is, as you said, well and truly shafted by Ingram.
The plan is for the Major team to move into the elephant in December. Lashams have one half of twin peaks until then.
I believe that they have an 18 month contract, whilst their hangar is being upgraded somewhere.
Two of the 10s were in one of the pods last week. It was only then you can see how large the building really is. Even with these types there was plenty of room.
The general feeling is, as you said, well and truly shafted by Ingram.
There is a further, less savoury aspect to the saga of these workshops becoming trading funds and agencies. That of stealth Defence Budget cuts.
Previously, a project manger would know, for example, that the modifications he was developing and buying had to be embodied. He may even know it was very expensive to do so. But he was never given money to do it because workshops would be funded separately from, say, the Rotary Wing Support Line. The PM simply had to fill in a tasking form and it happened.
When it was announced that hard cash had to change hands, those few PMs who understood the implications asked for compensatory provision. That is, split the existing money up among the projects. Fat chance. They were told to fund it from within their existing budget. This had already been salami sliced to the bone by beancounters who hadn’t a clue about the impact, so something had to give, big time. What gave was capability for users. Projects were delayed, cancelled or features struck from specifications. (And if you know how the “system” works, you’ll know that it is not the PM’s responsibility to make financial provision, but the Customers’).
Unhappily, some workshops sat back waiting for the work and cash to roll in. Didn’t happen. PMs who now had to arrange and manage embodiment contracts with no extra resources (money, financial, commercial and QA staffs etc) often took the easy route by awarding embodiment to whoever did the development and production. Not always, but often enough to make a noticeable impact on DARA’s order book.
Previously, a project manger would know, for example, that the modifications he was developing and buying had to be embodied. He may even know it was very expensive to do so. But he was never given money to do it because workshops would be funded separately from, say, the Rotary Wing Support Line. The PM simply had to fill in a tasking form and it happened.
When it was announced that hard cash had to change hands, those few PMs who understood the implications asked for compensatory provision. That is, split the existing money up among the projects. Fat chance. They were told to fund it from within their existing budget. This had already been salami sliced to the bone by beancounters who hadn’t a clue about the impact, so something had to give, big time. What gave was capability for users. Projects were delayed, cancelled or features struck from specifications. (And if you know how the “system” works, you’ll know that it is not the PM’s responsibility to make financial provision, but the Customers’).
Unhappily, some workshops sat back waiting for the work and cash to roll in. Didn’t happen. PMs who now had to arrange and manage embodiment contracts with no extra resources (money, financial, commercial and QA staffs etc) often took the easy route by awarding embodiment to whoever did the development and production. Not always, but often enough to make a noticeable impact on DARA’s order book.