Dara
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Pr00ne is correct. However, part of the "surplus" is also due to another aspect of Lean.
Think about it, You lean out a station to save money, but then you're left with 150 people (or however many) who you can't just sack but, having them as surplus is still costing you money!
Solution - put them on someone elses inventory!! "Lease" them to DARA, give them to the Navy get rid of them anyway you can! Look at how much money I've saved at my station!!
RedTop
Yeah, spilling mushtack. You'll have to guess what i really meant!!!!
Think about it, You lean out a station to save money, but then you're left with 150 people (or however many) who you can't just sack but, having them as surplus is still costing you money!
Solution - put them on someone elses inventory!! "Lease" them to DARA, give them to the Navy get rid of them anyway you can! Look at how much money I've saved at my station!!
RedTop
Sorry to be a pedant but If my memory serves me correctly I think it's spelt trainees, mate.
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Jobza, you're right, it was Airworks. I seem to remember that they filled the chiselled area around the 'rivet' heads. This bodge was subsequently found by a JT carrying out rutine work in the area. Further inspections of othe jets revealed the scale of the cock up.
Safety_Helmut
Safety_Helmut
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
BBC: Defence workers braced for cuts
Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram is due to announce details of cuts at the Defence Aviation Repair Agency (Dara).
Some 725 jobs will go when Dara's fast jet operation at St Athan, south Wales, and its engine maintenance business in Hampshire are closed, the union says. Hundreds more jobs are expected to go at Army vehicle repair agency, Abro..... The TGWU said the armoured vehicle "land facilities" at Donnington, in Shropshire, will close with 578 jobs going by March 2007. Other land facilities at Warminster, in Wiltshire, and Colchester, in Essex, which deals with unscheduled repairs to the Army's fighting vehicles, will close by March 2007 with the loss of 161 jobs, the union said.
It added that a further 350 jobs on VC10 work at St Athan, in the Vale of Glamorgan, would be at risk of privatisation, as would a further 860 posts on the helicopter repair and components business based at Fleetlands, Hampshire, and at Almondbank, in Scotland.
Only Dara's electronics business at Sealand in north Wales will remain intact, the TGWU said......
The Transport and General Workers Union said it believed a total of 1,951 redundancies would be announced by Mr Ingram on Tuesday afternoon, with a further 1,210 at risk......
He is said to want "more adaptable, efficient and effective support structures, better configured to enable our Armed Forces expeditionary operations".
TGWU national officer Peter Allenson expressed "severe disappointment" at the expected announcement and said it was a "betrayal" of skilled workers. "There will be a mad dash to the private sector which will not give any long-term value for money." The news would not go down well with those that now faced a "bleak future", he added.
Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram is due to announce details of cuts at the Defence Aviation Repair Agency (Dara).
Some 725 jobs will go when Dara's fast jet operation at St Athan, south Wales, and its engine maintenance business in Hampshire are closed, the union says. Hundreds more jobs are expected to go at Army vehicle repair agency, Abro..... The TGWU said the armoured vehicle "land facilities" at Donnington, in Shropshire, will close with 578 jobs going by March 2007. Other land facilities at Warminster, in Wiltshire, and Colchester, in Essex, which deals with unscheduled repairs to the Army's fighting vehicles, will close by March 2007 with the loss of 161 jobs, the union said.
It added that a further 350 jobs on VC10 work at St Athan, in the Vale of Glamorgan, would be at risk of privatisation, as would a further 860 posts on the helicopter repair and components business based at Fleetlands, Hampshire, and at Almondbank, in Scotland.
Only Dara's electronics business at Sealand in north Wales will remain intact, the TGWU said......
The Transport and General Workers Union said it believed a total of 1,951 redundancies would be announced by Mr Ingram on Tuesday afternoon, with a further 1,210 at risk......
He is said to want "more adaptable, efficient and effective support structures, better configured to enable our Armed Forces expeditionary operations".
TGWU national officer Peter Allenson expressed "severe disappointment" at the expected announcement and said it was a "betrayal" of skilled workers. "There will be a mad dash to the private sector which will not give any long-term value for money." The news would not go down well with those that now faced a "bleak future", he added.
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So what would the TGWU prefer, the MoD to continue to give work to an agency that doesn't seem to be able to come up with the goods, even with a whole host of 'skilled workers'? Surly they're not implying the government chucks good money after bad for the sake of their members (and membership dues)?
Betrayal of their members, how about betrayal of the population as a whole by not spending taxes in the most efficient way.
Betrayal of their members, how about betrayal of the population as a whole by not spending taxes in the most efficient way.
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I thought Sealand was due to close per se ? or is it only the RAF element of the base that will now close ? A developers dream in either case.
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From BBC Wales website
Nearly 2,000 defence jobs to go
Dara engineers in a cockpit
Dara engineers examine the cockpit of a jet
Nearly 2,000 jobs are to be cut in a shake-up of defence repair and maintenance services.
The Defence Aviation Repair Agency's (Dara) fast-jet site in St Athan, south Wales, will close with 500 job losses, armed forces minister Adam Ingram said.
Dara's engine maintenance business in Fleetlands, Hampshire, will also be shut with 225 jobs going by March 2007.
A further 1,226 jobs are being axed at Army vehicle repair service, Abro, with 628 of them going in Shropshire.
'Frontline readiness'
Abro will be closing its armoured vehicle and engine facilities at Donnington by March 2007.
Its "one-stop shops" at Warminster, Wiltshire, and Colchester, Essex, will also close by March 2007 with up to 281 redundancies, the minister told MPs.
A further 107 jobs will be lost at Bovington, Dorset, with up to 210 redundancies across other Abro sites, Mr Ingram said.
But 165 new Abro jobs would be created at a number of smaller facilities near Warminster and Colchester.
On top of the job losses, Dara's helicopter repair business at Fleetlands, in Hampshire, and Almondbank, Scotland, are to be market tested for possible sell-off.
Mr Ingram said the changes would significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft at reduced costs.
BBC Wales news
If I heard correctly on the radio, the DARA site at St Athan was only opened last year !
Another waste of £130M of tax payers money.
Y_G
Dara engineers in a cockpit
Dara engineers examine the cockpit of a jet
Nearly 2,000 jobs are to be cut in a shake-up of defence repair and maintenance services.
The Defence Aviation Repair Agency's (Dara) fast-jet site in St Athan, south Wales, will close with 500 job losses, armed forces minister Adam Ingram said.
Dara's engine maintenance business in Fleetlands, Hampshire, will also be shut with 225 jobs going by March 2007.
A further 1,226 jobs are being axed at Army vehicle repair service, Abro, with 628 of them going in Shropshire.
'Frontline readiness'
Abro will be closing its armoured vehicle and engine facilities at Donnington by March 2007.
Its "one-stop shops" at Warminster, Wiltshire, and Colchester, Essex, will also close by March 2007 with up to 281 redundancies, the minister told MPs.
A further 107 jobs will be lost at Bovington, Dorset, with up to 210 redundancies across other Abro sites, Mr Ingram said.
But 165 new Abro jobs would be created at a number of smaller facilities near Warminster and Colchester.
On top of the job losses, Dara's helicopter repair business at Fleetlands, in Hampshire, and Almondbank, Scotland, are to be market tested for possible sell-off.
Mr Ingram said the changes would significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft at reduced costs.
BBC Wales news
If I heard correctly on the radio, the DARA site at St Athan was only opened last year !
Another waste of £130M of tax payers money.
Y_G
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Good story.
Not much of a decision though eh?
Get rid of 2000 jobs or save £2 billion by 2010 and significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft.
Well done Mr Ingram. you get my vote.
Not much of a decision though eh?
Get rid of 2000 jobs or save £2 billion by 2010 and significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft.
Well done Mr Ingram. you get my vote.
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Good thing we sent 90+ RAF blokes to Fleetlands or they would be buggered.
Oh, and the engine repair facility at Fleetlands is going to be shut - good thing Odiham got rid of it's engine bay and sent all the engine work to Fleetlands a couple of months ago then!!!!
Not sure what you mean by this southside! Did you actually mean "Get rid of 2000 jobs AND save £2b"? Either way your either a bit of a tw*t or doing your usual devils advocate job!
Oh, and the engine repair facility at Fleetlands is going to be shut - good thing Odiham got rid of it's engine bay and sent all the engine work to Fleetlands a couple of months ago then!!!!
Get rid of 2000 jobs or save £2 billion by 2010 and significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft.
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Helpfull stacker
I hope that your handle has nothing to do with your trade and that you are fully qualified to make those sweeping statements.
Those 'skilled workers' that you point at ARE, in fact, skilled. Most of us are ex RAF. All we have done is chosen to jump, rather than be pushed by the drawdown in the forces. Our skills have not changed.
The VC 10s are going out on time , under budget. The Harriers were doing the same.
I agree with you, I do wonder where the good money is being chucked, (it is most certainly not in this direction).
The TGWU does speak out loud sometimes but they are quite often right. With a £70 million pound hangar just open, (after an extensive business case investigated by their lordships), what is the TRUE underlying purpose of Ingrams decision.
We will find out in 18 months
I hope that your handle has nothing to do with your trade and that you are fully qualified to make those sweeping statements.
Those 'skilled workers' that you point at ARE, in fact, skilled. Most of us are ex RAF. All we have done is chosen to jump, rather than be pushed by the drawdown in the forces. Our skills have not changed.
The VC 10s are going out on time , under budget. The Harriers were doing the same.
I agree with you, I do wonder where the good money is being chucked, (it is most certainly not in this direction).
The TGWU does speak out loud sometimes but they are quite often right. With a £70 million pound hangar just open, (after an extensive business case investigated by their lordships), what is the TRUE underlying purpose of Ingrams decision.
We will find out in 18 months
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Truck, sorry mate but if DARA managed to get a Harrier out on time and on budget I must have missed it. From memory during HMP1 most ac were 6-12 months late and were usually only slipped on the program in the last month or so. This caused fleet managers a real headache as the next jet in was usually running out of hours. Maybe the GR7 to 7A program was a little better but even then this small program was usually late to deliver (though I'll admit much better than HMP1) Most of the problems(not all) were down to poor spares provision and this was used well by DARA to hide a manpower/planning problems. Simply order something the RAF have no spares of!
To be fair DARA were starting to get their act together just as the contract was pulled.
Where is all this work going to be done now then? The RAF has just culled hundreds of engineers. But hey we'll just not service them as much that'll improve availability! Good idea this on an old ac that entered service on an 400hr between Minor maintenance program which worked well to now go to nearly 800 hours between maintenance. The jets wont shake themselves to pieces doing that then!
Guess all the structural problems normally picked up and CAT3 repaired on maintenance will now either not be picked up until well beyond normal repair limits or be put CAT 3 on the Squadrons during routine engine changes etc.
Time will tell but I know one engineer whose glad he got redundancy before the **** really hits the fan.
To be fair DARA were starting to get their act together just as the contract was pulled.
Where is all this work going to be done now then? The RAF has just culled hundreds of engineers. But hey we'll just not service them as much that'll improve availability! Good idea this on an old ac that entered service on an 400hr between Minor maintenance program which worked well to now go to nearly 800 hours between maintenance. The jets wont shake themselves to pieces doing that then!
Guess all the structural problems normally picked up and CAT3 repaired on maintenance will now either not be picked up until well beyond normal repair limits or be put CAT 3 on the Squadrons during routine engine changes etc.
Time will tell but I know one engineer whose glad he got redundancy before the **** really hits the fan.
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Obviously it is the right decision to bin DARA. For the FJ world it keeps the RAF employed, the large aircraft will be repaired by SERCO or Marshalls for a vast fee in that lovely FREE super hangar in Wales and rotary will be 'supported' by whoever throws in a cheapo bid for Fleetlands work.
Nu Labour have decided that Sealand must turn a profit so will be kept in house.
Out of interest do the cabinet members have shares in BAE/AgustaWestlands/SERCO/Marshalls or am I incredibly cynical.
Just to satisfy my curiousity but who will do all the support when the next shooting war kicks off and the servicemen are told they can't have their planes cos the price went up or the contract doesn't cover war work.
RIP DARA you were unloved from the start.
Nu Labour have decided that Sealand must turn a profit so will be kept in house.
Out of interest do the cabinet members have shares in BAE/AgustaWestlands/SERCO/Marshalls or am I incredibly cynical.
Just to satisfy my curiousity but who will do all the support when the next shooting war kicks off and the servicemen are told they can't have their planes cos the price went up or the contract doesn't cover war work.
RIP DARA you were unloved from the start.
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So, can anyone actually tell me where all this money Bliar and his cronies are saving goes?
After all, the armed forces, NHS, police, fire brigade (sorry, can't call them a brigade anymore not very PC, sounds too militaristic!) service, roads, schools (have I forgotten anyone) are all vastly underfunded but this shi*hole of a government still NEED to save more money?? Maybe it's to pay for all the MP's pay rises!!!! Or is it to pay for cuddly tones foreign adventures!
After all, the armed forces, NHS, police, fire brigade (sorry, can't call them a brigade anymore not very PC, sounds too militaristic!) service, roads, schools (have I forgotten anyone) are all vastly underfunded but this shi*hole of a government still NEED to save more money?? Maybe it's to pay for all the MP's pay rises!!!! Or is it to pay for cuddly tones foreign adventures!
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HOODED
I suspect that no one yet fully understands the implications of extending the servicing regimes in the way that we are doing it. They are not just being extended by single figures (%) but by 30-40% in some cases.
Safety_Helmut
I suspect that no one yet fully understands the implications of extending the servicing regimes in the way that we are doing it. They are not just being extended by single figures (%) but by 30-40% in some cases.
Safety_Helmut
S-H and HOODED,
Lets not forget though that most, if not all, of the extensions have been achieved simply by taking away the extendibility (?) option on servicings
e.g
on the GR4, Primaries were done around 150 FH but could be extended out by 37.5%. Now Ps are done at 206FH and are unextendable.
That's certainly the case on GRs anyway.
JG
Lets not forget though that most, if not all, of the extensions have been achieved simply by taking away the extendibility (?) option on servicings
e.g
on the GR4, Primaries were done around 150 FH but could be extended out by 37.5%. Now Ps are done at 206FH and are unextendable.
That's certainly the case on GRs anyway.
JG
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So, can anyone actually tell me where all this money Bliar and his cronies are saving goes?
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Jobza, do you really believe that extensions won't be brought back in later when the flexability of being able to stagger ac into maintenance is needed.
I suspect that ac going into maintenance after the extra hours flown will be in need of a lot of extra work once stipped down(CAT 3s in particular). Maybe their TRT will extend and without the flexability of extensions ac backing up would be grounded.
Just my prediction but as Safety_Helmut says no one really knows the implications of these huge increases in time between maintenance. Time will tell. My guess is that availability will increase at the front line initially(less ac on sched maint) but as the ac are flown harder with less maintenance they will gradually break more and with a lot less experienced engineers to fix them(once tranche 3 is finished)they will spend longer on the ground thus reducing availability to lower levels than before the cost saving changes.
I suspect that ac going into maintenance after the extra hours flown will be in need of a lot of extra work once stipped down(CAT 3s in particular). Maybe their TRT will extend and without the flexability of extensions ac backing up would be grounded.
Just my prediction but as Safety_Helmut says no one really knows the implications of these huge increases in time between maintenance. Time will tell. My guess is that availability will increase at the front line initially(less ac on sched maint) but as the ac are flown harder with less maintenance they will gradually break more and with a lot less experienced engineers to fix them(once tranche 3 is finished)they will spend longer on the ground thus reducing availability to lower levels than before the cost saving changes.
Last edited by HOODED; 8th Nov 2005 at 21:29.
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There were around 13-15 F3 airframes that were fcuked-up (and that was the technical term I heard being used at the time) by Airworks, IIRC.
Everyone at St Athan knew this was going to be the end result from the moment that the creation of DARA was announced. The idea that they would have attracted commercial customers was pie-in-the-sky. Even now, with the big hangar (Red Dragon I believe), there is simply no gap in the market for such an operation, but I guess the WDA had to throw a few tens of millions of tax-payers money at some White Elephant or another. If they used some common sense and employed someone who knew at least the square-root of fcuk-all about business, instead of a bunch of retired Gp Capts and Wg Cdrs (who didn't want DARA to be at St Athan in the first place), the whole sorry mess could have been avoided. As it is, the area where I grew up is on the verge of being over-run by Pongos, their insufferable pad-brats and their fat,ogrish women-folk. Chav-tastic!
So what do we have after 10 years or so of PFI/ "marketisation"? A return to the status quo with the jets being maintained by RAF personnel, albeit not nearly enough of them and not nearly enough support.
W@nkers.
Everyone at St Athan knew this was going to be the end result from the moment that the creation of DARA was announced. The idea that they would have attracted commercial customers was pie-in-the-sky. Even now, with the big hangar (Red Dragon I believe), there is simply no gap in the market for such an operation, but I guess the WDA had to throw a few tens of millions of tax-payers money at some White Elephant or another. If they used some common sense and employed someone who knew at least the square-root of fcuk-all about business, instead of a bunch of retired Gp Capts and Wg Cdrs (who didn't want DARA to be at St Athan in the first place), the whole sorry mess could have been avoided. As it is, the area where I grew up is on the verge of being over-run by Pongos, their insufferable pad-brats and their fat,ogrish women-folk. Chav-tastic!
So what do we have after 10 years or so of PFI/ "marketisation"? A return to the status quo with the jets being maintained by RAF personnel, albeit not nearly enough of them and not nearly enough support.
W@nkers.
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"A return to the status quo with the jets being maintained by RAF personnel
W@nkers."
A tad harsh I feel, after all, there's not nearly enough of them, and not nearly enough support.
Being quoted out of context is exactly the sort of stupid tricks that are going on.
W@ankers indeed!
W@nkers."
A tad harsh I feel, after all, there's not nearly enough of them, and not nearly enough support.
Being quoted out of context is exactly the sort of stupid tricks that are going on.
W@ankers indeed!
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So what would the TGWU prefer, the MoD to continue to give work to an agency that doesn't seem to be able to come up with the goods, even with a whole host of 'skilled workers'? Surly they're not implying the government chucks good money after bad for the sake of their members (and membership dues)?
Stuart (Union 'til I Die!)
Cashmachine,
They are NOT saving money! The Defence budget is rising, slowly and inexorably but it IS rising, even after inflation (and that’s a mute point as it is after general inflation). Any money saved here, as with all the other “force adjustments” remains in the Defence budget. All of the areas of expenditure you quote are rising after decades of neglect, but there is simply not enough cash to go around.
Look at the last audited set of Govt expenditure vs income to see why; in 2004 the Govt had a budget of £519Billion versus receipts of £467Billion…………………
WHY can’t YOU call them a Fire Brigade? That’s what they are man! PC? No, just bolleaux from those with a political agenda.
DARA was a foolish idea from the off, with the current over capacity in the heavy maintenance world it was never going to be a success, as Washington_irving alludes to, staffing it with retired senior officers didn't exactly help!
Is this the end of RAF St.Athan now?
They are NOT saving money! The Defence budget is rising, slowly and inexorably but it IS rising, even after inflation (and that’s a mute point as it is after general inflation). Any money saved here, as with all the other “force adjustments” remains in the Defence budget. All of the areas of expenditure you quote are rising after decades of neglect, but there is simply not enough cash to go around.
Look at the last audited set of Govt expenditure vs income to see why; in 2004 the Govt had a budget of £519Billion versus receipts of £467Billion…………………
WHY can’t YOU call them a Fire Brigade? That’s what they are man! PC? No, just bolleaux from those with a political agenda.
DARA was a foolish idea from the off, with the current over capacity in the heavy maintenance world it was never going to be a success, as Washington_irving alludes to, staffing it with retired senior officers didn't exactly help!
Is this the end of RAF St.Athan now?