Toothless Poodle
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not trying to say that Tories are good, Labour is bad. What I am trying to say is that right here, right now, things aren't good! The original thread was about our current military ability and our PM's determination to 'do something' about Iran and not about the state of our economy. If you listen to the people at the coal face who are actually trying to do the work, we simply can not do any more than we are doing at the moment. The level of support from our politaical lords and masters is woefully inadequate, the cut backs unsustainable and the amount of red tape put in place by this current government is suffocating.
On another note, if you want to talk about hysteria, maybe Sgt Steve Roberts' widow might have something to say on that given that the body armour issued to her husband was withdrawn shortly before he was shot dead. Or maybe you'd like to discuss the armoured land rovers denied our troops? Or the essential equipment that continues to slip to the right causing us to operate outdated and aging equipment way past its sell by date? Hysteria? Xenophobia? Anti-American? No, simply Pro the poor sods out there doing us proud with zero support from Downing Street.
On another note, if you want to talk about hysteria, maybe Sgt Steve Roberts' widow might have something to say on that given that the body armour issued to her husband was withdrawn shortly before he was shot dead. Or maybe you'd like to discuss the armoured land rovers denied our troops? Or the essential equipment that continues to slip to the right causing us to operate outdated and aging equipment way past its sell by date? Hysteria? Xenophobia? Anti-American? No, simply Pro the poor sods out there doing us proud with zero support from Downing Street.
TAC Int Bloke
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bluntend, you might not be playing the left/right game, but BEags, who started the topic off, has. Of late been ramping up the anti-Labour rhetoric, and he was the person whose views I was questioning. So far he (and his supporters) have refused even to accept that there has been any improvement in socio-economic conditions in the country since 1997 – strange that, if life under the Conservatives was so wonderful why did they lose the past three elections?
I remember during Kosovo Republican politicians protesting against the action on the grounds that Bill Clinton was running the show - partisanship at its worse, I later watched the Democrats doing the exact same over GW2 - I think many of the anti-Blairites are doing exactly the same thing
As to the second part of your comment all that you say is true and unacceptable, but it has always been thus - half arsed deployments and kit shortages are nothing new - I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying its not unique to the MoD under Labour
I remember during Kosovo Republican politicians protesting against the action on the grounds that Bill Clinton was running the show - partisanship at its worse, I later watched the Democrats doing the exact same over GW2 - I think many of the anti-Blairites are doing exactly the same thing
As to the second part of your comment all that you say is true and unacceptable, but it has always been thus - half arsed deployments and kit shortages are nothing new - I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying its not unique to the MoD under Labour
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: earth
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although I thoroughly enjoy the anti Bush threads and Tory vs NOO Labour, lets get back to the original theme...is Blair right to be posturing against Iran?
Well I wish he had skipped Iraq first. Iraq was / is a waste of time and we are paying the price, whereas Iran is truly a threat to world security. Just because a war will not physically touch our shores does not mean that it won't touch our lives if we do nothing about it.
So what should we do??
Well we could park a couple of our ageing submarines equipped with ageing (but still highly effective) nuclear weapons offshore.
Hmmmm well that proves the need for a nuclear deterrent at the same time as playing our part in world peace.
Funny how the debate of whether or not to replace our nuclear deterrent is sparking at the moment!
Am I the only one who can spot a connection between Tone's rhetoric and a forthcoming debate (which he will find hard to win when the deterrent has had nothing to deter for 15 years).
IMHO this is all to do with sowing the seeds for a renewal of the Nuclear Deterrent.
While I’m on the subject (and because I am an infrequent poster) my opinion is that for UK to remain an influential nation, we must keep a seat on the BIG tables (Security council etc etc); and the only way we can do this is through specialist (niche) capabilities ie being a nuclear power, which is generally accepted to have a bit more intellectual capability than our (nearly) common language playmates.
UNM
Well I wish he had skipped Iraq first. Iraq was / is a waste of time and we are paying the price, whereas Iran is truly a threat to world security. Just because a war will not physically touch our shores does not mean that it won't touch our lives if we do nothing about it.
So what should we do??
Well we could park a couple of our ageing submarines equipped with ageing (but still highly effective) nuclear weapons offshore.
Hmmmm well that proves the need for a nuclear deterrent at the same time as playing our part in world peace.
Funny how the debate of whether or not to replace our nuclear deterrent is sparking at the moment!
Am I the only one who can spot a connection between Tone's rhetoric and a forthcoming debate (which he will find hard to win when the deterrent has had nothing to deter for 15 years).
IMHO this is all to do with sowing the seeds for a renewal of the Nuclear Deterrent.
While I’m on the subject (and because I am an infrequent poster) my opinion is that for UK to remain an influential nation, we must keep a seat on the BIG tables (Security council etc etc); and the only way we can do this is through specialist (niche) capabilities ie being a nuclear power, which is generally accepted to have a bit more intellectual capability than our (nearly) common language playmates.
UNM
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Lowlevel UK
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
buoy15
Perhaps Canada, Australia and Germany have a more pragmatic view on what they intend to do and how far from their own shore their elected leaders expect to project power.
Perhaps Canada, Australia and Germany have a more pragmatic view on what they intend to do and how far from their own shore their elected leaders expect to project power.
Bluntend,
“On another note, if you want to talk about hysteria, maybe Sgt Steve Roberts' widow might have something to say on that given that the body armour issued to her husband was withdrawn shortly before he was shot dead. Or maybe you'd like to discuss the armoured land rovers denied our troops?”
Cheap jibes!
Both the above are nothing to do with which Govt is in power, they are the responsibility of uniformed players a long way from the ministerial level, if we can’t provide such items from a £30Billion pound defence budget then it is a sad state of affairs!
“On another note, if you want to talk about hysteria, maybe Sgt Steve Roberts' widow might have something to say on that given that the body armour issued to her husband was withdrawn shortly before he was shot dead. Or maybe you'd like to discuss the armoured land rovers denied our troops?”
Cheap jibes!
Both the above are nothing to do with which Govt is in power, they are the responsibility of uniformed players a long way from the ministerial level, if we can’t provide such items from a £30Billion pound defence budget then it is a sad state of affairs!
Last edited by pr00ne; 1st Nov 2005 at 16:11.
I'matightbastard
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tory, Labour. Don't get fooled like they fool you over here. If you don't like one, it doesn't mean you like the other.They're separate entities, but if you say "Bush this..." the response will invariably be "Clinton that..."
So what? Something's right or wrong, good or bad on its own merits, not in relation to its diametric opposite
...back to my cardboard box now
So what? Something's right or wrong, good or bad on its own merits, not in relation to its diametric opposite
...back to my cardboard box now
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Former Downing Street aide Lance Price¡¯s memoirs show Blair once again in a less than favourable light when mentioning, amongst other things, that his fellow MP¡¯s have taken to "rutting on his sofa like horny teenagers when his back is turned", his former director of communications, Alastair Campbell, calls him (Blair) a "d*ckhead" and the great man himself refers to part of the UK population as the "F*cking Welsh"
Apart from this, Blair is revealed less like Dubya¡¯s poodle, despite Chris Patten writing in the Guardian of 19 September 2005 that ¡°Blair is all too likely to be judged by history as a leader who was braver in defending Bush¡¯s agenda in Iraq than he was in standing up for his own, and Britain¡¯s, strategic objectives in Europe¡± and more like "one of those bloodthirsty little terriers with delusions of grandeur". Price goes on to observe that it¡¯s a shame that so many innocent lives have been lost to help this one man feel assured of his place in the history books.
"I couldn't help feeling TB was relishing his first blooding as PM, sending the boys into action. Despite all the necessary stuff about taking action 'with a heavy heart', I think he feels it is part of his coming of age as a leader."
So far TB's coming of age ¡®ceremony¡¯ has cost the lives of almost 100 British soldiers while his reckless backing of the US in Iraq has led to countless deaths of civilians and provided motivation for the recent terrorist acts carried out in London.
Blair's love of playing the big shot on the world stage has promted him, according to BEagle's post of 28 Oct, to pronounce, "When are you going to do something about this (Iranian PM saying that Israel should be wiped off the map)? Because you imagine a state like that, with an attitude like that, having a nuclear weapon."
Hmmm. Has anyone heard more of his implied and stirring intent or was it just convenient rhetoric on the day for selective consumption? Or will his new baby, the replacement for Trident, be the long term instrument for "doing something"? I think we should be told!
Apart from this, Blair is revealed less like Dubya¡¯s poodle, despite Chris Patten writing in the Guardian of 19 September 2005 that ¡°Blair is all too likely to be judged by history as a leader who was braver in defending Bush¡¯s agenda in Iraq than he was in standing up for his own, and Britain¡¯s, strategic objectives in Europe¡± and more like "one of those bloodthirsty little terriers with delusions of grandeur". Price goes on to observe that it¡¯s a shame that so many innocent lives have been lost to help this one man feel assured of his place in the history books.
"I couldn't help feeling TB was relishing his first blooding as PM, sending the boys into action. Despite all the necessary stuff about taking action 'with a heavy heart', I think he feels it is part of his coming of age as a leader."
So far TB's coming of age ¡®ceremony¡¯ has cost the lives of almost 100 British soldiers while his reckless backing of the US in Iraq has led to countless deaths of civilians and provided motivation for the recent terrorist acts carried out in London.
Blair's love of playing the big shot on the world stage has promted him, according to BEagle's post of 28 Oct, to pronounce, "When are you going to do something about this (Iranian PM saying that Israel should be wiped off the map)? Because you imagine a state like that, with an attitude like that, having a nuclear weapon."
Hmmm. Has anyone heard more of his implied and stirring intent or was it just convenient rhetoric on the day for selective consumption? Or will his new baby, the replacement for Trident, be the long term instrument for "doing something"? I think we should be told!
highcirrus,
Actually, what Blair said was that he was worried that in future someone might be tempted to ask of him “why didn’t you do something about Iran.”
Actually, what Blair said was that he was worried that in future someone might be tempted to ask of him “why didn’t you do something about Iran.”
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Earth
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not send in the Blunkmeister. He should have a bit of spare time on his hands these days. He could threaten them with the guide dog. It's probably got better teeth than the poodle who seems o have left all his teeth in Iraq/Afghanistan/Balkans/PVR queue.
Siloe Sid -
I take it you meant Iran?
Given the growing willingness amongst the rank and file Labour MP's to voice opposition to some of Tone's wilder flights of fancy, I doubt if he could repeat his rough-shod ride (Iraq) again in respect of taking 'action' against Iran.
However, I am very interested in seeing how many more final straws this Governments camels back will take, in particular the day after GWB asks Bliar for support in taking a conflict to Iraq.
Given the growing willingness amongst the rank and file Labour MP's to voice opposition to some of Tone's wilder flights of fancy, I doubt if he could repeat his rough-shod ride (Iraq) again in respect of taking 'action' against Iran.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Lyneham Las, if I may finish my edit, My answer is this.......Yes!
What an excellent thread. I must say I take BEagles corner.
Echoing back to Dan Winterlands early post, the pure size of Iran and it's terrain opens the potention for the biggest cluster fcuk this side of the Big Bang!
However, I am very interested in seeing how many more final straws this Governments camels back will take, in particular the day after GWB asks Bliar for support in taking a conflict to Iran.
Ahmadinejad 
Bin Laden
Blunkett 
Adams
What an excellent thread. I must say I take BEagles corner.
Echoing back to Dan Winterlands early post, the pure size of Iran and it's terrain opens the potention for the biggest cluster fcuk this side of the Big Bang!
However, I am very interested in seeing how many more final straws this Governments camels back will take, in particular the day after GWB asks Bliar for support in taking a conflict to Iran.
Ahmadinejad Bin Laden Blunkett Adams
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: ecosse
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good spot BATS
Can you remind us of the sitting members of the UN Security Council - "the BIG 5"
Why are not Israel, Pakistan, India, China or Iran included?
Surely, in the present climate, these states are world players, or am I missing something?
Can you remind us of the sitting members of the UN Security Council - "the BIG 5"
Why are not Israel, Pakistan, India, China or Iran included?
Surely, in the present climate, these states are world players, or am I missing something?
I'matightbastard
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are those names incorrectly placed or do I need to go back to terrorist recognition school?
Notice one thing in common though?
...they all have beards. I can think of one of my old girlfriends who'd fit right in on both counts
Notice one thing in common though?
...they all have beards. I can think of one of my old girlfriends who'd fit right in on both counts
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pr00ne
The thing to realise is that Lance Price's words "help this one man feel assured of his place in the history books" are key to the individual. Blair is merely covering his ar*e as usual so that in the future, if/when things have gone further down-hill with Iran, he can, in his own version of history, show himself to have been the great statesman warning everyone of the upcoming exacerbation of problems with that country. You notice that he doesn't have a plan to deal with, or solution to, the latest problem - he's merely thrown in his marker and moved on to other areas where the Great Helmsman can sow similar future proofing markers.
I'm so utterly unimpressed with his posturing leadership style and I'd guess that it's a similar feeling, mingled with contempt for his consistent mendacity and obfuscation, that leads other Blair detractors to share the same jaundiced sentiment.
The thing to realise is that Lance Price's words "help this one man feel assured of his place in the history books" are key to the individual. Blair is merely covering his ar*e as usual so that in the future, if/when things have gone further down-hill with Iran, he can, in his own version of history, show himself to have been the great statesman warning everyone of the upcoming exacerbation of problems with that country. You notice that he doesn't have a plan to deal with, or solution to, the latest problem - he's merely thrown in his marker and moved on to other areas where the Great Helmsman can sow similar future proofing markers.
I'm so utterly unimpressed with his posturing leadership style and I'd guess that it's a similar feeling, mingled with contempt for his consistent mendacity and obfuscation, that leads other Blair detractors to share the same jaundiced sentiment.