Troops stranded in Basra by grounded planes
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The lads on the ground here are becomming dis-heartened. They are all due rotation and see the RAF as a failure in its ability to get them home to families, wives and girl-friends on time. It is not a lot to ask after serving here but no-one seems to care.
Its about time the british military ownes up to the fact that we are operating above and beyond, past breaking strain. Its no wonder guys are leaving the forces in their droves. If this is the support we recieve then the Goverment and Military chiefs are going to get a shock after the draw-down and guys continue to leave. Welfare, its not optional.
Its about time the british military ownes up to the fact that we are operating above and beyond, past breaking strain. Its no wonder guys are leaving the forces in their droves. If this is the support we recieve then the Goverment and Military chiefs are going to get a shock after the draw-down and guys continue to leave. Welfare, its not optional.
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The Government and the Chiefs aint listening though are they..!!!!
Didnt listen to the Senior Soldier after Gulf 1, this whole episode is the same.....Gen Sir Peter said we were overstretched then....more so now!!!!
Didnt listen to the Senior Soldier after Gulf 1, this whole episode is the same.....Gen Sir Peter said we were overstretched then....more so now!!!!
desert_ranger, quite so!
Whether it's clapped-out, overstretched, knackered old jets years past their use-by date, problems with 'equipment' needed for such jets to operate safely in theatre, not enough spares/crews/pies or WTF - that is immaterial.
To the 'PBI' who just want to get home, the perception is that the Brylcreem Boys just aren't cutting it. OK - that's probably a mis-perception, but to A N Other Grunt who just wants to get home, that's immaterial. I don't blame them AT ALL for feeling TOTALLY pi$$ed off at the lack of reliable AT - the blame lies squarely with an ageing old fleet which should have been replaced years ago with something from some time later than the stone age.
But with such a 'fast-jet centric' bunch running the pale blue bit of the mad MoD-box, is it any surprise that the AT/AAR fleet - invariably one of the more essential FW fleets in any conflict - always sucks the hind tit?
Whether it's clapped-out, overstretched, knackered old jets years past their use-by date, problems with 'equipment' needed for such jets to operate safely in theatre, not enough spares/crews/pies or WTF - that is immaterial.
To the 'PBI' who just want to get home, the perception is that the Brylcreem Boys just aren't cutting it. OK - that's probably a mis-perception, but to A N Other Grunt who just wants to get home, that's immaterial. I don't blame them AT ALL for feeling TOTALLY pi$$ed off at the lack of reliable AT - the blame lies squarely with an ageing old fleet which should have been replaced years ago with something from some time later than the stone age.
But with such a 'fast-jet centric' bunch running the pale blue bit of the mad MoD-box, is it any surprise that the AT/AAR fleet - invariably one of the more essential FW fleets in any conflict - always sucks the hind tit?
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Been to Basra only once, stayed 90 minutes, got a/b, got a SAM launched at us- my Mum won't let me go back! I'm now slightly further east- much nicer- NOT!!! Don't know when we will get home- some are 5 weeks late already in getting out of here!
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Loadie, Heard a rumour that the Tri* is getting the nice South Atlantic round robin back.
Everybody is working hard, everyone is overstretched, all the equipment is falling to bits, but at the end of the day, until the Govt puts it hand in its pocket then we will have to muck in like we always do. Its no ones fault the Jets Broke, the threat matrix won't let the 10 take pax, plus the 10 has the lovely weekend cargo run. When all the Drivers have gone to work for the bearded one, then they can use the trainer Ba-phoons to ferry one bloke home at a time, cos by then the Army will be Lord Hague, his wife, all his wife's tennis partners and some chap called Bernard.
Everybody is working hard, everyone is overstretched, all the equipment is falling to bits, but at the end of the day, until the Govt puts it hand in its pocket then we will have to muck in like we always do. Its no ones fault the Jets Broke, the threat matrix won't let the 10 take pax, plus the 10 has the lovely weekend cargo run. When all the Drivers have gone to work for the bearded one, then they can use the trainer Ba-phoons to ferry one bloke home at a time, cos by then the Army will be Lord Hague, his wife, all his wife's tennis partners and some chap called Bernard.
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This overstretch has been in the system for the last 15yrs almost...
Since Gulf 1....British Forces have been doing more and more with less and less.....
The coffers get chopped....
Then the balloon goes up somewhere, like the Gulf again, and we dont have the kit and manpower to mount a full scale deployment that was always something other forces would take note of..
The T* has gone back on the SA rte which was chartered out to CivAir, the same CivAir compant was also doing other rtes the T* was doing..vicious circle going on here...
Since Gulf 1....British Forces have been doing more and more with less and less.....
The coffers get chopped....
Then the balloon goes up somewhere, like the Gulf again, and we dont have the kit and manpower to mount a full scale deployment that was always something other forces would take note of..
The T* has gone back on the SA rte which was chartered out to CivAir, the same CivAir compant was also doing other rtes the T* was doing..vicious circle going on here...
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So when is the British Government going to sign on the dotted line with Air Tanker, so not to delay any future A330 deliveries. Enabling the modernisation to begin and let the old ladies that have done a fine job go to the plane graveyard in the sky, lets be honest its well over due.
Maddog red
Probably as and when AirTanker make the deal work. At the moment they do not plan to meet the requirement, if they do not meet the requirement why should we sign? That would be buying more kit that does not meet the original requirement leaving the MOD open to mre criticism of 'letting down the military'.
And if you are all hoping for FSTA to be the panacea then you are living in cloud cuckoo land! There won't be enough of them to do what we do now with 9 Tri*s and 26, 25, 23, 20, 19, 17......... VC10s!
Probably as and when AirTanker make the deal work. At the moment they do not plan to meet the requirement, if they do not meet the requirement why should we sign? That would be buying more kit that does not meet the original requirement leaving the MOD open to mre criticism of 'letting down the military'.
And if you are all hoping for FSTA to be the panacea then you are living in cloud cuckoo land! There won't be enough of them to do what we do now with 9 Tri*s and 26, 25, 23, 20, 19, 17......... VC10s!
Don't forget that it was only ever supposed to be a Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft, not to replace the entire jet AT/AAR fleet.
Whereas if the 24-ish A310 Multi-Role Tanker Transports once offered by BAe had been bought to replace a similar number of VC10s, the RAF would have a vastly superior capability today.
AirTanker are probably only required to deliver a certain agreed FSTA capability to the RAF; however, as they will undoubtedly have a number of other A330s to place as their commercial needs dictate, perhaps they will contract seperately to support Trust-me-Tone's various regime-changing wars if the price is right?
Incidentally, my notes of the 1996 Covert Oxonian Aerodrome AT/AAR symposium recall:
Tranche 1 of the C130K replacement programme would be met by 25 x C130J.
Tranche 2 would be met by about 25 'FLA' (became A400M).
'Within 10 years' (i.e. by 2006) the VC10s and TriStars would be replaced by 25-30 'multi-role tanker transport' aircraft.
The 'FLA' was supposed to have an in service date (i.e. 50% delivered) of, wait for it, 2004
Well, they got the 130Js...... Then came 'Short Term Strategic Airlifter' which lead to the rent-a-Boeing C-17s intended to fill the gap pre-A400M.
And the ageing old '10s and Timmies are still struggling along to provide the main AAR and troop/pax capability. Years after they shuld have been replaced.
A310-300s are so popular with the rest of the world that few are available on the pre-owned aircraft market - they are rapidly snapped up by new buyers. Today, just 5 are available. The A310 has low acquisition, operating and maintenance costs and is in service with 5 air forces. A true wide-body (same 222" cross-section as the A330), in its AAR role it can carry 72 tonnes of fuel but only burns it at less than 70% of the rate of a VC10. Although no country has specified a centreline capability, EADS are already trialling a boom and it wouldn't take much to add a centereline hose.
Whereas if the 24-ish A310 Multi-Role Tanker Transports once offered by BAe had been bought to replace a similar number of VC10s, the RAF would have a vastly superior capability today.
AirTanker are probably only required to deliver a certain agreed FSTA capability to the RAF; however, as they will undoubtedly have a number of other A330s to place as their commercial needs dictate, perhaps they will contract seperately to support Trust-me-Tone's various regime-changing wars if the price is right?
Incidentally, my notes of the 1996 Covert Oxonian Aerodrome AT/AAR symposium recall:
Tranche 1 of the C130K replacement programme would be met by 25 x C130J.
Tranche 2 would be met by about 25 'FLA' (became A400M).
'Within 10 years' (i.e. by 2006) the VC10s and TriStars would be replaced by 25-30 'multi-role tanker transport' aircraft.
The 'FLA' was supposed to have an in service date (i.e. 50% delivered) of, wait for it, 2004
Well, they got the 130Js...... Then came 'Short Term Strategic Airlifter' which lead to the rent-a-Boeing C-17s intended to fill the gap pre-A400M.
And the ageing old '10s and Timmies are still struggling along to provide the main AAR and troop/pax capability. Years after they shuld have been replaced.
A310-300s are so popular with the rest of the world that few are available on the pre-owned aircraft market - they are rapidly snapped up by new buyers. Today, just 5 are available. The A310 has low acquisition, operating and maintenance costs and is in service with 5 air forces. A true wide-body (same 222" cross-section as the A330), in its AAR role it can carry 72 tonnes of fuel but only burns it at less than 70% of the rate of a VC10. Although no country has specified a centreline capability, EADS are already trialling a boom and it wouldn't take much to add a centereline hose.
Last edited by BEagle; 14th Oct 2005 at 13:38.
MarkD
Lots actually but mainly to do with the finance side of the house and the requirement to have it off balance sheet. Have no doubt I am a fan of the KA330, it will make a fantastic TANKER. But will there be enough to do AAR & AT? It was always assumed that civil charter was the way ahead so we didn't need as many aircraft to cover all the AAR and a bit of the AT. Unfortunatley most civil ac do not come with ECM/DAS and as been indicated on this topic that is a bit of a show stopper during current ops!! Lots of people said it would but nobody listened and bits were salami sliced off from the FSTA programme.
Me I would buy a fleet of 20 KA or should that be KC330 to cover AAR & AT requirements, sadly the EP can't afford to buy 5 let alone 20.
http://www.kc330.com/index.jsp
Edited to add the link, and the 'flypast' is one I would love to see!!
Lots actually but mainly to do with the finance side of the house and the requirement to have it off balance sheet. Have no doubt I am a fan of the KA330, it will make a fantastic TANKER. But will there be enough to do AAR & AT? It was always assumed that civil charter was the way ahead so we didn't need as many aircraft to cover all the AAR and a bit of the AT. Unfortunatley most civil ac do not come with ECM/DAS and as been indicated on this topic that is a bit of a show stopper during current ops!! Lots of people said it would but nobody listened and bits were salami sliced off from the FSTA programme.
Me I would buy a fleet of 20 KA or should that be KC330 to cover AAR & AT requirements, sadly the EP can't afford to buy 5 let alone 20.
http://www.kc330.com/index.jsp Edited to add the link, and the 'flypast' is one I would love to see!!
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The whole programme to replace the current VC-10/Tristar fleet is a typical Mod farce. The opportunity existed when the Airbus
freighter line was at Filton to buy a couple to provide a little slack.
Phasing them in slowly would have provided crew training opportunities and alllowed ground crew to get up to speed on the type. Everything at present is geared to what we might get in the future - the problem exists now and the cost of keeping the VC-10 in the air any longer than it's scheduled retirement
date is seriously expensive.
We don't need a brand new fleet of A330's on PFI - the idea of
lease back to civil operators just doesn't work. The aircraft might be wanted for a couple of months in summertime and hardly any more . There are certainly Airbus aircraft stored in the Mojave that could seriously help the RAF get more servicable aircraft in the air and be more cost effective to operate . It needs thought and vision to sort the problem out - something which seems to be clearly lacking at the moment
freighter line was at Filton to buy a couple to provide a little slack.
Phasing them in slowly would have provided crew training opportunities and alllowed ground crew to get up to speed on the type. Everything at present is geared to what we might get in the future - the problem exists now and the cost of keeping the VC-10 in the air any longer than it's scheduled retirement
date is seriously expensive.
We don't need a brand new fleet of A330's on PFI - the idea of
lease back to civil operators just doesn't work. The aircraft might be wanted for a couple of months in summertime and hardly any more . There are certainly Airbus aircraft stored in the Mojave that could seriously help the RAF get more servicable aircraft in the air and be more cost effective to operate . It needs thought and vision to sort the problem out - something which seems to be clearly lacking at the moment