Personal Weapons Etiquet on Entering C-130
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Many years ago I kept a boat at Aldeburgh and used to take pilots from Bentwaters out sailing,in return I used to get into the officers mess for my first taste of a real beefburger.
One day ,must have been in 1974,I was on the base with the officer in charge of air sea rescue for that part of the world and we saw some films on Vietnam shot by airforce crew ,I also had a good look around a Jolly Green Giant.
He was in civil dress, as obviously I was as well.
To round off the day he asked if I would like to look around a C-130,if I remember this all correctly we went to a control center and I think he was given a code to unlock the aircraft door,I don't think it was keys,and we drove out to the plane in his old BMW.
Anyway I was sitting in the pilots seat and a jeep screamed up and skidded to a halt and the next thing I'm looking down the barrel of a very large handgun!
The guard saw the officer and recognised him and all was OK,
apparently the people in the control place had not told the security guards that we going out to the plane.
I was very lucky to have been around then as you certainly would not be able to get onto a US base like that today.
Lister
One day ,must have been in 1974,I was on the base with the officer in charge of air sea rescue for that part of the world and we saw some films on Vietnam shot by airforce crew ,I also had a good look around a Jolly Green Giant.
He was in civil dress, as obviously I was as well.
To round off the day he asked if I would like to look around a C-130,if I remember this all correctly we went to a control center and I think he was given a code to unlock the aircraft door,I don't think it was keys,and we drove out to the plane in his old BMW.
Anyway I was sitting in the pilots seat and a jeep screamed up and skidded to a halt and the next thing I'm looking down the barrel of a very large handgun!
The guard saw the officer and recognised him and all was OK,
apparently the people in the control place had not told the security guards that we going out to the plane.
I was very lucky to have been around then as you certainly would not be able to get onto a US base like that today.
Lister
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There are a few times I have flown from goose $hit central and not had to declare mr multi-tool. The same can be said for Lyneham and Akrotiri as well. I guess it just depends on the pedantic to$$ers around at the time, or weather the common sense custodian is on duty at the time.
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The defintion that C-130 driver quotes is as I remember it. On Ops, weapons were made safe (which is a full unload, followed by a load).
I can remember having to convince chalks emplaning to NI that when they got to Aldergrove, they would not need to jump off the aircraft with guns blazing. Even those heading South by SH would have time to prepare on arrival.
During GW1, the first few aircraft out of Gutersloh left with soldiers carrying their weapons in their hands, but as soon as it became obvious there was no immediate threat requiring immediate access to a fire arm, more attention was paid to making sure they had adequate NBC kit and the weapons were carried in the holds/weapon rolls.
I can remember having to convince chalks emplaning to NI that when they got to Aldergrove, they would not need to jump off the aircraft with guns blazing. Even those heading South by SH would have time to prepare on arrival.
During GW1, the first few aircraft out of Gutersloh left with soldiers carrying their weapons in their hands, but as soon as it became obvious there was no immediate threat requiring immediate access to a fire arm, more attention was paid to making sure they had adequate NBC kit and the weapons were carried in the holds/weapon rolls.
Just a point, when you do unload, check that there isn't a round stuck to the face of the bolt it can happen on some weapons and my military career almost ended when one of my Corporals put a hole in the roof from said cause.
Cunning Artificer
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1. Troops travelling as pax in a vehicle or aircraft are not in a position to engage a target and therefore should not have 'one up the spout'. The weapon should be made safe upon entry into the aircraft and remain in that condition until exiting the aircraft.
This is not the case when travelling in say an APC, in a combat zone, where it would be proper to re-attach a full magazine but not cock the action until exiting the vehicle.
2. A personal weapon is 'loaded' as long as it has a magazine attached as there is no way to tell if there are rounds in the magazine without looking. Its not just the person carrying the weapon who needs to know if its loaded and cocked or not!
I was on Nee Soon Range at a falling plates competition when a fellow member of the FEAF Rifle Team came back from the firing point and put his rifle down pointing directly at me. I had watched him leave the firing point and told him quietly that it was ready to fire but he disagreed, believing he had just done the make-safe drill properly. I picked it up, cocked the action and it ejected a live round.
You never can be too careful.
This is not the case when travelling in say an APC, in a combat zone, where it would be proper to re-attach a full magazine but not cock the action until exiting the vehicle.
2. A personal weapon is 'loaded' as long as it has a magazine attached as there is no way to tell if there are rounds in the magazine without looking. Its not just the person carrying the weapon who needs to know if its loaded and cocked or not!
I was on Nee Soon Range at a falling plates competition when a fellow member of the FEAF Rifle Team came back from the firing point and put his rifle down pointing directly at me. I had watched him leave the firing point and told him quietly that it was ready to fire but he disagreed, believing he had just done the make-safe drill properly. I picked it up, cocked the action and it ejected a live round.
You never can be too careful.
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Setting the record straight!
There has been a good deal of drivel posted in relation to this thread, the actual answer is:
In order to be on any aircraft with a weapon and ammunition held on the person, a request for TFT (Troops in fighting trim) has to have been made and granted. This is only granted if that airctaft is going into a tactical situation where the troops will have to "hit the ground running".
This state therefore allows the soldier to be carrying the weapon, with magazines and any other explosives (ie grenades) stowed correctly in his webbing.
Asise from specialist SF sorties, no passenger should ever be loaded or made ready as some have suggested. The same rules apply for getting onto an aircraft after "action"...
None of this is "etiquette" as the original poster has suggested but rather a hard and fast safety rule!
In order to be on any aircraft with a weapon and ammunition held on the person, a request for TFT (Troops in fighting trim) has to have been made and granted. This is only granted if that airctaft is going into a tactical situation where the troops will have to "hit the ground running".
This state therefore allows the soldier to be carrying the weapon, with magazines and any other explosives (ie grenades) stowed correctly in his webbing.
Asise from specialist SF sorties, no passenger should ever be loaded or made ready as some have suggested. The same rules apply for getting onto an aircraft after "action"...
None of this is "etiquette" as the original poster has suggested but rather a hard and fast safety rule!
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How about this for a realistic policy over hostile territory: All personnel have their guns in their hands, unbagged and ready for use, with a magazine to hand for self defence if the worst case scenario happens. Agreed, no weapons made ready. That is for outside the aircraft normally. Anyone seen the video of the HIP getting shot down in Iraq? Don't fancy my last thought as "bugger, wish I had some bullets for this gun" or even worse "bugger, my gun is in the hold" Let the operators and the fleet (i.e C130s) decide, not the movers and any other blunts who don't put themselves at risk. Sick of seeing what is patently obvious being obstructed by rulemakers.
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Hellfyyr,
How about you look at my handle and accept that I probably can answer the question better than you. You may know the rules but the original question was about the etiquette. Therefore I refer you to my original answer.
How about you look at my handle and accept that I probably can answer the question better than you. You may know the rules but the original question was about the etiquette. Therefore I refer you to my original answer.
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Hellfyyr,
When someone starts his post with the arrogance of your opening comments, I hope to then read a copied and pasted extract from the rule book or least see a reference. Until you produce such information I can only assume that you know nothing more than anyone else here.
When someone starts his post with the arrogance of your opening comments, I hope to then read a copied and pasted extract from the rule book or least see a reference. Until you produce such information I can only assume that you know nothing more than anyone else here.
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My own experience of the ridiculous:
I was a squaddie, in BAOR or whatever it is called these days. When UNPROFOR ended, and IFOR took over, my regiment was posted to Bosnia. Two teams went in on day one. 50 odd blokes via Split to pick up some kit, and 7 guys straight into Sarajevo. Pitch up at Brueggen, 2 x Alberts on pan. 50 guys get in one and disappear. The other 7 of us hang around, and pilot comes over to us and asks where our flak jackets were. Mandatory for Sarajevo. So off to RAF stores to draw kit. Onto ac, depart to Sarajevo, and land (controlled dive!). Hot offload, engines running, props spinning, whole nine yards. C130 on ground for two minutes, tops.
The thing was, our weapons were bundled. What was the point of the flak jacket thing and scary landing technique? If a hot reception was expected, hence the protective measures, then it would have been only polite to let us have a fighting chance of defending ourselves when we got off the ac into that stinking $hithole. Bizarrely, our bayonets were OK. No f***ing rifle to fix them too though!
I have no beef with the RAF, a fine job done by all. But the rules were just so disjointed over things like this.
I was a squaddie, in BAOR or whatever it is called these days. When UNPROFOR ended, and IFOR took over, my regiment was posted to Bosnia. Two teams went in on day one. 50 odd blokes via Split to pick up some kit, and 7 guys straight into Sarajevo. Pitch up at Brueggen, 2 x Alberts on pan. 50 guys get in one and disappear. The other 7 of us hang around, and pilot comes over to us and asks where our flak jackets were. Mandatory for Sarajevo. So off to RAF stores to draw kit. Onto ac, depart to Sarajevo, and land (controlled dive!). Hot offload, engines running, props spinning, whole nine yards. C130 on ground for two minutes, tops.
The thing was, our weapons were bundled. What was the point of the flak jacket thing and scary landing technique? If a hot reception was expected, hence the protective measures, then it would have been only polite to let us have a fighting chance of defending ourselves when we got off the ac into that stinking $hithole. Bizarrely, our bayonets were OK. No f***ing rifle to fix them too though!
I have no beef with the RAF, a fine job done by all. But the rules were just so disjointed over things like this.
Roadster,
Body armour and crazy daft herc stylee landing perhaps a protection against mortar/artillery attack and risk of MANPADS strike on a/c on the way into airfield?
Although not an expert in this field, suspect the risk of there actually being someone on the field shooting at you that you would be able to shoot back at would be, if not minimal, low-ish.....
Just a thought whilst bored during the enforced stay in the office...
Body armour and crazy daft herc stylee landing perhaps a protection against mortar/artillery attack and risk of MANPADS strike on a/c on the way into airfield?
Although not an expert in this field, suspect the risk of there actually being someone on the field shooting at you that you would be able to shoot back at would be, if not minimal, low-ish.....
Just a thought whilst bored during the enforced stay in the office...
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roadster...
It might seem strange that you would land in an area where such tactics were needed and not have a weapon to defend yourself if required!
But just a thought that the airfield would be protected quite heavily for the aircraft and the troops on board anyway, so you wouldnt need it -
As for the crew insisting on body armour - we have to do that now, because if you were shot in flight without having brought it on the a/c, I know that the captain would be hung out to dry....
(and thats irrespective of the passengers being briefed, and the fact that the movers shouldnt allow anyone on without it in the first place)
It might seem strange that you would land in an area where such tactics were needed and not have a weapon to defend yourself if required!
But just a thought that the airfield would be protected quite heavily for the aircraft and the troops on board anyway, so you wouldnt need it -
As for the crew insisting on body armour - we have to do that now, because if you were shot in flight without having brought it on the a/c, I know that the captain would be hung out to dry....
(and thats irrespective of the passengers being briefed, and the fact that the movers shouldnt allow anyone on without it in the first place)
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Roadster
As I remember you had to wear body armour/helmets into Sarejevo due to the risk of small arms fire and rockets rather than imminent chance of the airfield being over run and needing to protect yourself. When I saw the aircrew putting on it then I reckoned it was a good idea for everyone to have it on.
If the airfield had been in danger of being over run and you needing to defed yourself - do you really think the Herc would have been allowed to land?
Also, IIRC, the airfield had a large French Foreign Legion prescence who I think would probably have given you enough time to unbundle the weapons if you had needed them that urgently....
As I remember you had to wear body armour/helmets into Sarejevo due to the risk of small arms fire and rockets rather than imminent chance of the airfield being over run and needing to protect yourself. When I saw the aircrew putting on it then I reckoned it was a good idea for everyone to have it on.
If the airfield had been in danger of being over run and you needing to defed yourself - do you really think the Herc would have been allowed to land?
Also, IIRC, the airfield had a large French Foreign Legion prescence who I think would probably have given you enough time to unbundle the weapons if you had needed them that urgently....
