Typhoon in the states
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Typhoon in the states
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I'm surprised this has taken so long to get on here, They've been there a few weeks now.
As Impiger said, OEU trials at Nellis, Fallon, then across to China Lake, and Point Mugu to meet up with the Fast Jet & Weapons OEU, who will be out there too.
As Impiger said, OEU trials at Nellis, Fallon, then across to China Lake, and Point Mugu to meet up with the Fast Jet & Weapons OEU, who will be out there too.
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Typhoon rumour rebuttal
Typhoon rumour rebuttal, an official has apparently commented on recent rumours of an 80 mile lockon against an f-22 at Nellis , and someone throwing a fit!!, isn't it a bit unusual for officials to make this kind of rebuttal?
Hmmm.... "enhanced signature for positive air control, except when they go to war or when the range has been cleared for /a-22 only operations"!!!, So the F/a-22's beat 5 x F-15's with radar reflactors attached, and the F-15 still didn't see them!!.
Now thats seriously impressive.
Cheers
"Eurofighter Radars Didn't Spot F/A-22s
Aviation Week & Space Technology
10/03/2005, page 23
Edited by David Bond
Printed headline: Eurorumor Mill
Unconfirmed reports--that is, rumors-- making the rounds in European aerospace industry circles contend that Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons, temporarily operating from Nellis AFB, Nev., were able to pick up U.S. Air Force F/A-22s on their radars, stealth notwithstanding. Similar reports appeared during the 1991 Iraq war concerning the ability of British ships, using large radar arrays, to detect the F-117 and, in later conflicts, the B-2. U.S. officials confirm that the Typhoons were at Nellis to fly with the 422nd Test & Evaluation Sqdn. However, they discount that the Typhoons had seen an F/A-22 in full-configuration stealth. First, they say, the Typhoons and F/A-22s were never in the air at the same time. Second, the F/A-22s always have an enhanced signature for positive air control, except when they go to war or when the range has been cleared for F/A-22-only operations"
Aviation Week & Space Technology
10/03/2005, page 23
Edited by David Bond
Printed headline: Eurorumor Mill
Unconfirmed reports--that is, rumors-- making the rounds in European aerospace industry circles contend that Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons, temporarily operating from Nellis AFB, Nev., were able to pick up U.S. Air Force F/A-22s on their radars, stealth notwithstanding. Similar reports appeared during the 1991 Iraq war concerning the ability of British ships, using large radar arrays, to detect the F-117 and, in later conflicts, the B-2. U.S. officials confirm that the Typhoons were at Nellis to fly with the 422nd Test & Evaluation Sqdn. However, they discount that the Typhoons had seen an F/A-22 in full-configuration stealth. First, they say, the Typhoons and F/A-22s were never in the air at the same time. Second, the F/A-22s always have an enhanced signature for positive air control, except when they go to war or when the range has been cleared for F/A-22-only operations"
Now thats seriously impressive.
Cheers
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Raised my eyebrows at an article in the latest Smithsonian magazine when it quoted a F/A-22 pilot as claiming he achieved aircraft detection ranges in excess of 320nm. Now that, if true, is seriously impressive.......
Not really, ToG. The F-117 has a similar radar signature device for overt ATC requirements.
As for the 'US Officials', the words of Mandy Rice-Davies spring to mind.
If the Raptor is only permitted to use its whoopy-do Romulan cloaking device when there's no-one else in the range, how on earth do they know that the Typhoon can't see it when it's operating in its stealthy guise?
What's the lock-on range like against the Aurora, I wond... Aargh, black Omegas and people in shades
outside!
As for the 'US Officials', the words of Mandy Rice-Davies spring to mind.
If the Raptor is only permitted to use its whoopy-do Romulan cloaking device when there's no-one else in the range, how on earth do they know that the Typhoon can't see it when it's operating in its stealthy guise?
What's the lock-on range like against the Aurora, I wond... Aargh, black Omegas and people in shades
outside!
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Its all very well having the radar signature of a sparrow, but how many sparrows fly at 600kts?
Bit of a give-away I reckon.
It reminds me of a story from WW2, Allied light bombers used to range over Northern France, escorted by flocks of fighters, in a attempt to draw the Luftwaffe up. These ops were very successful, except on the occassion when the bombers stayed at home and the fighters went out alone. On these occassions, the Luftwaffe stayed firmly eathbound.
After some deep thought, the question was asked 'does a bomb have a radar signature?' Much experimentation took place and the answer came back - 'No'.
At this point someone asked "What speed do the bombers fly at? "
"about 120kts"
"And how fast do the fighters fly, if they are alone?
" about 300Kts"
Bit of a give-away I reckon.
It reminds me of a story from WW2, Allied light bombers used to range over Northern France, escorted by flocks of fighters, in a attempt to draw the Luftwaffe up. These ops were very successful, except on the occassion when the bombers stayed at home and the fighters went out alone. On these occassions, the Luftwaffe stayed firmly eathbound.
After some deep thought, the question was asked 'does a bomb have a radar signature?' Much experimentation took place and the answer came back - 'No'.
At this point someone asked "What speed do the bombers fly at? "
"about 120kts"
"And how fast do the fighters fly, if they are alone?
" about 300Kts"
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Its all very well having the radar signature of a sparrow, but how many sparrows fly at 600kts?
On Red Flag some F-117s were locked up by the F3 no less - they were returning from the range and had switched on their anti-anti-cloaking device. During debrief the crew were asked to leave the room and were questioned by a Col on what and why etc - there is a lot that goes on in those ranges that we can only guess the half of - especially when the US only Flags take place!
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Its all very well to say "this aircraft has the radar signature of a sparrow." Perhaps we have a radar capable of seeing sparrows (african or european is fine) at 100 miles. Then eliminate all those going under 200kts and voila.
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I believe it was African or European Swallows.
Still, it could carry it by the husk.
Still, it could carry it by the husk.
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Daysleeper (or Daydreamer should that be) - sounds like you should be working for a large company in Edinburgh!
My simplistic understanding of radar - to detect sparrows need a short wavelength, short wavelengths have poor power transmission so need a big transmitter and big antennae which don't fit into the radome of a fighter aircraft. To detect stealth need radar returns above the noise floor and that given only a moderate power output in a fighter there isn't suficient returns until close range to detect a target above the ambient noise levels. Sure you can tweak all you want with wiggly amps, but the fact remains if you haven't got a massively powerful radar, a stealth aircraft (or a sparrow) will always be seen at short range.
So stealth is the way forward if you can't train a sparrow to carry and shoot AMRAAMs at the bad guys.
SG
PS - Time for some F4 blah about how they used to track Sparrows (Aim 7 variety) all the time!
My simplistic understanding of radar - to detect sparrows need a short wavelength, short wavelengths have poor power transmission so need a big transmitter and big antennae which don't fit into the radome of a fighter aircraft. To detect stealth need radar returns above the noise floor and that given only a moderate power output in a fighter there isn't suficient returns until close range to detect a target above the ambient noise levels. Sure you can tweak all you want with wiggly amps, but the fact remains if you haven't got a massively powerful radar, a stealth aircraft (or a sparrow) will always be seen at short range.
So stealth is the way forward if you can't train a sparrow to carry and shoot AMRAAMs at the bad guys.
SG
PS - Time for some F4 blah about how they used to track Sparrows (Aim 7 variety) all the time!
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If the Americans had any sense.. and chances are they do.. then the F22 is going to be 'visible' at all times whilst 'others' are playing... so that they can be seen...always helpful and to prevent anyone even knowing what the non enhanced return is like.. regardless...
Even if they are not airborne at the same time prudence would dictate that the 22s are operated in normal mode...why give anyone the knowledge...
However between seeing it and being able to do anything about it there is a world of difference,, you can see it perhpas, may be even track it but could you get a guidance system to lock on? Or perhpas use the tracking to slave an optical tracker? Who knows.. but like seeing car headlights in the distance, useful yes...you know something is there, but until its close you have no idea of what/how it is......
Sad tho that all that money has been spent and at least ancedotally it does not seem to have delivered the announced goods...
Even if they are not airborne at the same time prudence would dictate that the 22s are operated in normal mode...why give anyone the knowledge...
However between seeing it and being able to do anything about it there is a world of difference,, you can see it perhpas, may be even track it but could you get a guidance system to lock on? Or perhpas use the tracking to slave an optical tracker? Who knows.. but like seeing car headlights in the distance, useful yes...you know something is there, but until its close you have no idea of what/how it is......
Sad tho that all that money has been spent and at least ancedotally it does not seem to have delivered the announced goods...
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Just in case i am being stupid.....
Both the UK and USA had their Wonder Toys on the same range at the same time.
One was able to detect the other at a range of 80 miles, and then using an onboard sensor, or a declaration from a control agency, was able to classify it as 'the other wonder toy'.
Then the pilot got down and started talking about it.
Can't decide out of all four steps which is the least likely...but they all seem pretty far fetched to me.
Both the UK and USA had their Wonder Toys on the same range at the same time.
One was able to detect the other at a range of 80 miles, and then using an onboard sensor, or a declaration from a control agency, was able to classify it as 'the other wonder toy'.
Then the pilot got down and started talking about it.
Can't decide out of all four steps which is the least likely...but they all seem pretty far fetched to me.
