civillians in the raf
I assume he means contractors... In which case your either a BAe 'boffin' or the cleaner. 
He may be referring to Aviation Officers (AVO's), basically a way of giving Sqn Ldr Air Traffickers a job until they are 60 on £30,000 per year, with their pension and gratuity still intact. I believe it is a sop to civil air traffic unions who do not wish controllers working in military towers alongside Military personnel to wear civvies. To be more accurate it is open to any ex military controllers, however after recent changes in recruitment it sure appears to benefit Sqn Ldr's and above. Once hired you wear Flt Lt uniform but are a civil servant. Most RAF towers have between 2-3.
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Kpax... the requirement for an AvO to be a member of the Reserves is in order to comply with the Air Navigation Order and its regulations pertaining to the provision of Air Traffic Services i.e. that you have to have a CAA License or be a member of the Armed Forces. The wearing of uniform is a much more complex issue, but it has NOTHING to do whatsoever with the Civil Service, Trade Unions or the CAA.
I sense bitterness in yours, and the next post by Plans123 when you both talk about pensions? The fact is drawing a pension is necessary to bring the pay up to something approaching the level drawn by an AvO's regular colleagues. On top of which there's no RPD payments, no free accomodation, cheap food, free dental care etc, etc, etc.
But getting back to the original point of this thread... you cannot join the RAF as an AvO, because AvOs aren't in the RAF... they are Civil Servants employed by the RAF. You could apply for a job vacancy, but to stand a chance (either as an ATCO, Flying Instructor etc) you have to have previously completed the service course... or something very similar?
As for Flight Operations Assts... the situation is slightly different, no prior training required, but you will be expected to take and pass the same course as your, soon to be, military colleagues after selection.
(PS there is no such things as an SGB1/2... the grade disappeared about 6-7yrs ago... they are now known as E1 or E2)
I sense bitterness in yours, and the next post by Plans123 when you both talk about pensions? The fact is drawing a pension is necessary to bring the pay up to something approaching the level drawn by an AvO's regular colleagues. On top of which there's no RPD payments, no free accomodation, cheap food, free dental care etc, etc, etc.
But getting back to the original point of this thread... you cannot join the RAF as an AvO, because AvOs aren't in the RAF... they are Civil Servants employed by the RAF. You could apply for a job vacancy, but to stand a chance (either as an ATCO, Flying Instructor etc) you have to have previously completed the service course... or something very similar?
As for Flight Operations Assts... the situation is slightly different, no prior training required, but you will be expected to take and pass the same course as your, soon to be, military colleagues after selection.
(PS there is no such things as an SGB1/2... the grade disappeared about 6-7yrs ago... they are now known as E1 or E2)
well they were SGB1/2's 3 years ago at EGDX!!!
Call them what you will, anyone willing to do the same job as an SAC and get paid nearly half the wage needs their head examined (well unless its to boost their WO's pension!!)
Call them what you will, anyone willing to do the same job as an SAC and get paid nearly half the wage needs their head examined (well unless its to boost their WO's pension!!)
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I suppose I'm off to get my head examined then. If I'm doing the same job as an SAC, does that mean I can come to work late, half pi$$ed looking like a bag of $hite? Mind you, it could be worse:
Edited as I'm a sensitive soul.
Edited as I'm a sensitive soul.
Last edited by Molesworth Hold; 21st Sep 2005 at 20:45.
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Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa,
Sounds like a lot of pu- -ys are hurting. Is this the Professional pilots rumour network(PPRUNE) or the (PPMPHN), the professional pilots my pu- -sy hurts network.
Commercialisation is going to, has and will continue to happen while the beannies are counting the $$$$. Most of the contractors I have seen are ex mil or currently serving mil on leave without pay/long service leave having a look before they cut the cord.
Some of the best pole men I know are contractors and have paid their dues before turning to QFI'ing in the contractor role.
Lasty.
Sounds like a lot of pu- -ys are hurting. Is this the Professional pilots rumour network(PPRUNE) or the (PPMPHN), the professional pilots my pu- -sy hurts network.
Commercialisation is going to, has and will continue to happen while the beannies are counting the $$$$. Most of the contractors I have seen are ex mil or currently serving mil on leave without pay/long service leave having a look before they cut the cord.
Some of the best pole men I know are contractors and have paid their dues before turning to QFI'ing in the contractor role.
Lasty.
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Last Third....... Why are the beannies counting the $$$$$s?
I have been away from the UK for 4 years now and I didn't realise that the UK had got rid of the Pound and had the Dollar as its currency
I guess that as you do not spell commercialisation with a Zee instead of an S then you must be Brit not a N American.
Therefore I can only guess you must have a N American keyboard that has no Pound sign (I can't find one on my keyboard therefore I must be at work not home!)
The Army and Navy would all say that the RAF are civllians anyway! Not true, not true.
Hoist to crew winching over and OUT
I have been away from the UK for 4 years now and I didn't realise that the UK had got rid of the Pound and had the Dollar as its currency
I guess that as you do not spell commercialisation with a Zee instead of an S then you must be Brit not a N American.
Therefore I can only guess you must have a N American keyboard that has no Pound sign (I can't find one on my keyboard therefore I must be at work not home!)
The Army and Navy would all say that the RAF are civllians anyway! Not true, not true.
Hoist to crew winching over and OUT
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
If you have the qualifications to do the civil service job, AvO being just one of them, but you have not previously held the Queen's commission, then you have to undergo selection and training at Cranditz.
This applies to doctors, nurses, dentists and who ever. If they don't cut the mustard then they do not get a commission. No commission, even as a reservist, means no job.
Ergo civilians my apply but thereafter they get commissioned and are no longer plain civilians.
This applies to doctors, nurses, dentists and who ever. If they don't cut the mustard then they do not get a commission. No commission, even as a reservist, means no job.
Ergo civilians my apply but thereafter they get commissioned and are no longer plain civilians.
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No commission, even as a reservist
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no longer plain civilians
Under the International Laws of Armed Conflict (embodied in the UK under the Geneva Conventions Act) there's actually no half-way house... You can be either civilian or service.
An AvO's TCoS are undoubtedly on a civilian basis, true they hold a Reserve Commission (in the RAFR Civilian Component, to be precise) and can be subject to Air Force Law, but their terms of employment are iaw Civil Service Regulations.
(Plans123 Ref. your SGB comment, a lot of places still use the old archaric job title... doesn't mean they're right to do it, the correct title is E1 or E2. If your information is 3yrs out-of-date is it wise to post it?)
Final thought... "Inside every Serviceman and woman there's a civilian waiting to get out"
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Ops and Mops, you mis-read, or I did not make myself clear.
You held a commission therefore getting a reserve commission was a shoo in. Fast track warrant officer conversions do not have to do the full blown IOT but they do have to do OASC to ensure that they will be suitable and responsible as officers.
I stand by what I said, if a doctor, nurse, or civil servant does not cut the mustard then they do not get the uniform. Met class J reserves just might be an exception, I am not sure.
You held a commission therefore getting a reserve commission was a shoo in. Fast track warrant officer conversions do not have to do the full blown IOT but they do have to do OASC to ensure that they will be suitable and responsible as officers.
I stand by what I said, if a doctor, nurse, or civil servant does not cut the mustard then they do not get the uniform. Met class J reserves just might be an exception, I am not sure.
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Hi PN,
I think I misconstrued the tone of your statement as having contempt for those commissioned into the reserves.
As far as I know, the guys on the MMU are commissioned into the RAFR after also attending OASC and must undertake a 6 month Reserve Officers Initial Training Course (ROIT) within 1 year of commissioning.
"6 months?" i hear you cry! Indeed 6 months as all the objectives of the full IOT course are undertaken on a distance learning basis at Squadron level under the guidance of an appointed Mentor. The course culminates in a 2 week residential phase that includes 5 days Field Leadership, a Field Leadership Camp and a Graduation Ceremony/Lunch at College Hall. All aspects of the course are assessed at OACTU (formerly DIOT) during this phase by the Short Courses/SERE staff. OACTU are at pains to stress that the ROIT course is no longer (was it ever?) an "Knife, Fork and Spoon attendance course", but that Officers can be, and have been chopped or re-coursed at any stage during the 6 month course.
This process, including OASC, is exactly the same for Officers of the R Aux AF and AvO's without previous commissioned experience. I have heard though of one AvO that, on account of previous service, was allowed to undertake the WO Commissioning Course in lieu of ROIT.
I think I misconstrued the tone of your statement as having contempt for those commissioned into the reserves.
As far as I know, the guys on the MMU are commissioned into the RAFR after also attending OASC and must undertake a 6 month Reserve Officers Initial Training Course (ROIT) within 1 year of commissioning.
"6 months?" i hear you cry! Indeed 6 months as all the objectives of the full IOT course are undertaken on a distance learning basis at Squadron level under the guidance of an appointed Mentor. The course culminates in a 2 week residential phase that includes 5 days Field Leadership, a Field Leadership Camp and a Graduation Ceremony/Lunch at College Hall. All aspects of the course are assessed at OACTU (formerly DIOT) during this phase by the Short Courses/SERE staff. OACTU are at pains to stress that the ROIT course is no longer (was it ever?) an "Knife, Fork and Spoon attendance course", but that Officers can be, and have been chopped or re-coursed at any stage during the 6 month course.
This process, including OASC, is exactly the same for Officers of the R Aux AF and AvO's without previous commissioned experience. I have heard though of one AvO that, on account of previous service, was allowed to undertake the WO Commissioning Course in lieu of ROIT.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ops and Mops, I is one.
Your summary is a more complete one that I simply paraphrased.
The service is keen to ensure that anyone that has a commission and wears the uniform is a fit and true person.
We used to have an MHU sqn ldr int who did a month's frontline duty at ISK each year. I suspect he may have been a teacher. Anyway he was there so often that he was accepted as just another Int O. The only problem was his rank. He was abit more senior that the regular staff although that was no problem.
Your summary is a more complete one that I simply paraphrased.
The service is keen to ensure that anyone that has a commission and wears the uniform is a fit and true person.
We used to have an MHU sqn ldr int who did a month's frontline duty at ISK each year. I suspect he may have been a teacher. Anyway he was there so often that he was accepted as just another Int O. The only problem was his rank. He was abit more senior that the regular staff although that was no problem.