B52 Air refueling
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I don't know if this particular photo is a fake.
However, I can assure you that the Strategic Air Command DID indeed include up to 90 degree banked turns in the contact position as part of the syllabus for the B-52 and KC-135 Combat Flight Instructor Course (instructor upgrade course) at Castle AFB, California and Carswell AFB, Texas.
This picture is at least 10 years old (the B-52 is a G-model, the last of which retired about 10 years ago), and the maneuver in question was removed from the syllabus at least 15 years ago (or perhaps longer).
havoc-
Pls check your PMs.
However, I can assure you that the Strategic Air Command DID indeed include up to 90 degree banked turns in the contact position as part of the syllabus for the B-52 and KC-135 Combat Flight Instructor Course (instructor upgrade course) at Castle AFB, California and Carswell AFB, Texas.
This picture is at least 10 years old (the B-52 is a G-model, the last of which retired about 10 years ago), and the maneuver in question was removed from the syllabus at least 15 years ago (or perhaps longer).
havoc-
Pls check your PMs.
I'd like to change my theory, which is mine and belongs to me.
SAC was thin at one end, thick in the middle and thin at the other end.
That is my theory, thank you.
Still think its barking mad.
Any more pictures?
Thanks KC-10 Driver.
SAC was thin at one end, thick in the middle and thin at the other end.
That is my theory, thank you.
Still think its barking mad.
Any more pictures?
Thanks KC-10 Driver.
Beagle
I think that the EWO does have an attitude indicator (from memory), as well as altimiter, ASI and HSI. In any case, you should know from your own experience that the entire crew is involved in the pre-flight brief, not just the blokes sitting with the stick and thottles.
Tarnished
Perhaps the training benefit came from the fact that there were a couple of life saving instances of unusual attitude AAR conducted by SAC tankers during SEA? Perhaps those that were expected to teach the theory to studs were expected to have accomplished such manouvers in real life?
I think that the EWO does have an attitude indicator (from memory), as well as altimiter, ASI and HSI. In any case, you should know from your own experience that the entire crew is involved in the pre-flight brief, not just the blokes sitting with the stick and thottles.
Tarnished
Perhaps the training benefit came from the fact that there were a couple of life saving instances of unusual attitude AAR conducted by SAC tankers during SEA? Perhaps those that were expected to teach the theory to studs were expected to have accomplished such manouvers in real life?
Familiar refrain....we don't/can't/wouldn't do that....therefore it can't/shouldn't/couldn't be done.
"However, I can assure you that the Strategic Air Command DID indeed include up to 90 degree banked turns in the contact position as part of the syllabus for the B-52 and KC-135 Combat Flight Instructor Course (instructor upgrade course) at Castle AFB, California and Carswell AFB, Texas."
What on earth for? And what the heck is a so-called 'Combat' Flight Instructor?
Sounds suspiciously like spurious elitism which will ultimately lead to a fatal accident.
As happened at Fairchild AFB in 1994 when a crew flew a B-52 in a 90 deg turn at low level. All on board were killed.....
See http://s92270093.onlinehome.us/crmde...e/darkblue.htm
What on earth for? And what the heck is a so-called 'Combat' Flight Instructor?
Sounds suspiciously like spurious elitism which will ultimately lead to a fatal accident.
As happened at Fairchild AFB in 1994 when a crew flew a B-52 in a 90 deg turn at low level. All on board were killed.....
See http://s92270093.onlinehome.us/crmde...e/darkblue.htm
Beagle
You can't compare what happened when a rogue pilot flew a B-52 into the ground at an airshow practise, with a highly-controlled advanced flying training programme.
There is a modern-day weapons school for the KC-135 and KC-10 communities, but I doubt very much that the effect it achieves is to form an elite who then go on to fly into the ground. What an absurd suggestion.
You can't compare what happened when a rogue pilot flew a B-52 into the ground at an airshow practise, with a highly-controlled advanced flying training programme.
There is a modern-day weapons school for the KC-135 and KC-10 communities, but I doubt very much that the effect it achieves is to form an elite who then go on to fly into the ground. What an absurd suggestion.
They learn about threat systems, threat capabilities and how to give themselves the best chance when in the ****.
Not sure about the RAF, but historically at least, US tanker crews have a reputation for putting themselves on the line when the calls for gas come through. At least, they did in SEA, GW I and GW II.
Not sure about the RAF, but historically at least, US tanker crews have a reputation for putting themselves on the line when the calls for gas come through. At least, they did in SEA, GW I and GW II.
Ewan, I saw a program on this incident - I don't think you can really call a B52 captain with more hours on type than you can shake a stick at 'rogue'.
He made a mistake and paid the ultimate price for it.
He made a mistake and paid the ultimate price for it.
So what caused the Thunderhawks fatal crash at Fairchild on 13 May 1987? Rehearsals were described by spectators as 'scary'.....
The utterly pointless B-52 and KC-135 extreme AAR manoeuvre was supposedly termed 'The Whiff'.....
What on earth was the point of it? I only did 20 years in the AAR game in war, peace, instructing and examining. I never came across such a daft idea - but am intrigued to learn why the Spams did it.
Regarding the other Fairchiled accident, yes, it was a rogue pilot. But institutional failures failed to stop him despite numerous other cases of flying indiscipline.
The utterly pointless B-52 and KC-135 extreme AAR manoeuvre was supposedly termed 'The Whiff'.....
What on earth was the point of it? I only did 20 years in the AAR game in war, peace, instructing and examining. I never came across such a daft idea - but am intrigued to learn why the Spams did it.
Regarding the other Fairchiled accident, yes, it was a rogue pilot. But institutional failures failed to stop him despite numerous other cases of flying indiscipline.
Ewan,
I would venture that there is little training value to be had in doing something once, all flying tasks are perishable skills, if not practiced on a regular basis their degree of difficulty returns to the TFD category. If it was so worthwhile why did KC-10 Driver tell us it was binned 15 or more years ago? If you need to be doing that sort of manoeuvre to get gas in a battle zone then is it because the tanker is bust or the reciever is bust? Nope don't believe that is a valid reason
SASless
Not a familiar refrain. More a case of asking the question "is what we are doing safe/valuable/worthwhile, does it have relavance". I've flown with USAF, USN and RAF and of the 3 the USN have the most relaxed approach to sticking to the rules, closely followed by the RAF and a long way behind is the USAF who are incredibly well disciplined and regulation bound. We regularly flew illegal formation aeros in the Hawk for the studes who were doing better at it - confidence building and related to getting the leans in cloud - fly the references irrespective of what your head tells you or what the leader (trust) is doing.
Regards
Tarnished
I would venture that there is little training value to be had in doing something once, all flying tasks are perishable skills, if not practiced on a regular basis their degree of difficulty returns to the TFD category. If it was so worthwhile why did KC-10 Driver tell us it was binned 15 or more years ago? If you need to be doing that sort of manoeuvre to get gas in a battle zone then is it because the tanker is bust or the reciever is bust? Nope don't believe that is a valid reason
SASless
Not a familiar refrain. More a case of asking the question "is what we are doing safe/valuable/worthwhile, does it have relavance". I've flown with USAF, USN and RAF and of the 3 the USN have the most relaxed approach to sticking to the rules, closely followed by the RAF and a long way behind is the USAF who are incredibly well disciplined and regulation bound. We regularly flew illegal formation aeros in the Hawk for the studes who were doing better at it - confidence building and related to getting the leans in cloud - fly the references irrespective of what your head tells you or what the leader (trust) is doing.
Regards
Tarnished
Plans
Suggest writing to the programme makers telling them they need to do more research. The pilot was most certainly a rogue, and one with whom certain members of the squadron refused to fly.
Beagle
I understand your point. Perhaps we can hear more from Mad Max's EWO friend?
WG
Of course, but the level of deatail into which the weapons school (WIC) goes far exceeds anything you'll find in a typical threat briefing. Importantly, the WIC is placing more and more emphasis on understanding 'the bigger picture' behind large-scale operations like OIF. Finally, it enables graduates of the programme to come back to the squadrons and teach the latest techniques and tactics to non-WIC aircrew.
Tarnished
Fair 'nuff. Just vacantly thinking aloud.
Suggest writing to the programme makers telling them they need to do more research. The pilot was most certainly a rogue, and one with whom certain members of the squadron refused to fly.
Beagle
I understand your point. Perhaps we can hear more from Mad Max's EWO friend?
WG
Of course, but the level of deatail into which the weapons school (WIC) goes far exceeds anything you'll find in a typical threat briefing. Importantly, the WIC is placing more and more emphasis on understanding 'the bigger picture' behind large-scale operations like OIF. Finally, it enables graduates of the programme to come back to the squadrons and teach the latest techniques and tactics to non-WIC aircrew.
Tarnished
Fair 'nuff. Just vacantly thinking aloud.
Beagle
Rewinding to the 2 g question, why should it be a stabilised turn, many a stude doing basic formation was (is?) taken up to well over 60 degrees of bank in close formation by means of a wing over . I see no reason why the same wasn't done in the case of this piccy................
Regards
Rewinding to the 2 g question, why should it be a stabilised turn, many a stude doing basic formation was (is?) taken up to well over 60 degrees of bank in close formation by means of a wing over . I see no reason why the same wasn't done in the case of this piccy................
Regards
The pilot was most certainly a rogue
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Finally, it enables graduates of the programme to come back to the squadrons and teach the latest techniques and tactics to non-WIC aircrew.
Found a tame Ex Buff instructor under a pile of boxes here in what was once known as Carswell AFB and he confirms that this was part of the IP course.
Tarnished
Tarnished
Last edited by Tarnished; 22nd Sep 2005 at 12:55.
......Climb to FL nosebleed, set up a race track, give fuel, land.......