the REAL cost of lean at Lyneham
Having no experience of the maintenance probs at Lyneham I still find this thread deeply saddening. It was always obvious in my time that techies of all branches took great pride in exceeding expectations and delivering a good product. It must be soul destroying to have to stand there day after day handing over aircraft that, through no fault of the team preparing them, are sub standard. I can only imagine what this is doing to morale.
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Not a Sqn Ldr are we? Normal chain of command to resolve problems?? Now who's talking b****x??
I didn't say they didn't get investigated, just ignored as TFD to deal with. And that comes from my own personal experience of dealing with a previous incumbent. Mind you they do write a very nice letter though!!
There isn't a single Sqn OC or Stn Cdr in the Royal Air Farce today who has the spine to take up any such issues with higher authority. Why? Because the bottom line is that as long as the military continue to produce such excellent results the MOD and HMG aren't interested in the mundane problems that LEAN has caused. In fact LEAN is brill because you do the same amount of work with a lot less men.
Not a Sqn Ldr are we? Normal chain of command to resolve problems?? Now who's talking b****x??
I didn't say they didn't get investigated, just ignored as TFD to deal with. And that comes from my own personal experience of dealing with a previous incumbent. Mind you they do write a very nice letter though!!
There isn't a single Sqn OC or Stn Cdr in the Royal Air Farce today who has the spine to take up any such issues with higher authority. Why? Because the bottom line is that as long as the military continue to produce such excellent results the MOD and HMG aren't interested in the mundane problems that LEAN has caused. In fact LEAN is brill because you do the same amount of work with a lot less men.
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This thread is even more worrying than the previous Lyn Eng threads and should be sending alarm bells higher up (yes, they DO scan PPrune).
Some wise words have already been spoken if; someone believes that their command-chain cannot (or will not) address their valid worries, then I would urge ALL to Murphy AND Condor and then, keep on doing so and insist on written replies whenever possible.
Maybe everyone should take copious notes and copies of emails - ready for the BOI and/or civil action?
Everyone should be asking the question "What if"?
God forbid we lose another valuable ac, crew and possibly their 80 or so pax/paras - will everyone be able to look themselves in the eye in the mirror and say that 'taking it on risk' was worth it?
Whose risk is it anyway? I can guarantee that that it won't be a 2*'s ass on the line!
Some wise words have already been spoken if; someone believes that their command-chain cannot (or will not) address their valid worries, then I would urge ALL to Murphy AND Condor and then, keep on doing so and insist on written replies whenever possible.
Maybe everyone should take copious notes and copies of emails - ready for the BOI and/or civil action?
Everyone should be asking the question "What if"?
God forbid we lose another valuable ac, crew and possibly their 80 or so pax/paras - will everyone be able to look themselves in the eye in the mirror and say that 'taking it on risk' was worth it?
Whose risk is it anyway? I can guarantee that that it won't be a 2*'s ass on the line!
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Having served 21 years to date I can honestly say I have never been anywhere that morale is so low and the engineering set-up is such a shambles as at Lyneham. Having been a member of the Support Helicopter Force for 14 of those 21 years believe me I've seen some low morale!
I have had dealings with centralised servicing before at Kinloss in the 80's and while you did not have the Sqn ethos for the groundcrew, that I have since experienced and thoroughly enjoyed, things seemed to work fairly well there. Of course this was before the major manpower cuts and contractualization that the RAF has seen since. Kinloss had one line at that time and all line work and rects were carried out from the one location with one pool of manpower. The managment were aware what manpower they had to work with as there was only one admin office that all the leave passes, guard rosters and detachments went through. It seems to me at Lyneham that Flecs and HLS never seem to know wht the other is doing with manpower and can only hope that they will have someone of the relevant trade and qualifications to cover the other sections shortfalls. I have found it amazing that there will be nobody on shift on either HLS or Flecs to carry out esssential, (in my eyes anyway), functions such as ground runs or jack ups and they have to hope and pray that someone on the oncoming shift can carry out the required tasks! As has been commented on already what happens after this next round of redundancies when presumably less manpower will be available?
I have had dealings with centralised servicing before at Kinloss in the 80's and while you did not have the Sqn ethos for the groundcrew, that I have since experienced and thoroughly enjoyed, things seemed to work fairly well there. Of course this was before the major manpower cuts and contractualization that the RAF has seen since. Kinloss had one line at that time and all line work and rects were carried out from the one location with one pool of manpower. The managment were aware what manpower they had to work with as there was only one admin office that all the leave passes, guard rosters and detachments went through. It seems to me at Lyneham that Flecs and HLS never seem to know wht the other is doing with manpower and can only hope that they will have someone of the relevant trade and qualifications to cover the other sections shortfalls. I have found it amazing that there will be nobody on shift on either HLS or Flecs to carry out esssential, (in my eyes anyway), functions such as ground runs or jack ups and they have to hope and pray that someone on the oncoming shift can carry out the required tasks! As has been commented on already what happens after this next round of redundancies when presumably less manpower will be available?
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if; someone believes that their command-chain cannot (or will not) address their valid worries
Sadly, although the present OC Lyneham is a top bloke and rightly respected by the vast majority (if not all) who serve under him, we have to understand that his hands are probably tied as much as ours are over this 'LEAN' bollocks. Plus, Stn Cdrs have traditionally been seen as "**** filters" (not just from below but ALSO from ABOVE!), especially where anything potentially bad happening on their station is concerned - and to be honest, one would expect it to be so - I imagine it is no different in civil aviation, or in any other business for that matter - after all, who wants to give their boss bad news?
Whilst I would like to believe that aviation, and the inherent (and necessary) safety culture that goes hand in hand with it, would win out over politics, it isn't always that way. Sadly I feel that either a major incident or an inability to fulfil an operational commitment are the only thing that will make the 'wheels' sit up and take notice. I feel, however, that our professionalism and pride (both that of us fliers and that of the techies that bust a gut to put 'frames on the programme, despite the apparent abject stupidity of their superiors) will ultimately prevent EITHER from happening. Our "Can Do / Make Do" attitude, whilst being one of our greatest strengths, may ultimately prove to be our downfall, sadly.
16B
Last edited by 16 blades; 10th Sep 2005 at 00:23.
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16B
Bon jour mon brave. You might be talking about someone I know?
While we went for the jugular at 2* level , our command chain at the time was totally ragged (only in the AT fleet would we have no decent Int Cell at Grope, no real input at PJHQ and the Stn Cdr and 4 out of 5 Wg Cdrs out of circulation, while our chaps are being shot at every night without the correct trg, support or kit!)
Nonetheless, what was left of the C2 chain were informed of our misgivings - but they didn't have the inclination to reply, so we just escalated things a bit - as it were!
Fortunately, our fleet were:
a. VERY lucky
b. Blessed with excellent crews, whose skill has never really been recognised.
c. Well supported by the lower staff echelons and a 2* who got the hint.
The net result was that we didn't lose an ac in those Ops and all we got was a one-sided interview with the returning OC - who was totally unaware of what we were all doing on Ops and who never even bothered to ask.
Grope saw us as 'scaremongers' who were ruining their chances of a medal. But, at least, we felt we could look ourselves in the eye of a morning.
It was no co-incidence that a lot of staff-work was req'd to get the higher echelons up to speed.
Nor was it a co-incidence that we kept our No1s in the office for the whole of Veritas/Telic - not because we feared a severe boll0cking but because we remembered when we lost an ac in 1993 and we couldn't find enough W/Cs to visit all the families at the same time.
At least these days, some the training that crews get reflects what might be asked of them. Also, thanks to some really sharp work by a few top-rate staff blokes, more AT aircraft have a decent DAS (not ALL - sadly!)
But, if people have similar feelings about the failings of new Eng system at Lyn, at least you SHOULD have a system in place to circumvent your immediate C2 chain if they are NOT listening - so keep using Murphys and Condors until you are blue in the face - keep a paper trail, too.
Hopefully, the rumour that DASC is but a shadow of IFS and that it has lost its teeth are unfounded......? Also, do not hesitate to call in favours from mates in staff posts - they can very helpful!
In the situation to that which you referred, we would argue that we were justified at the time to by-pass the 'chaff' but we would also not recommend it as a first course of action and would be alarmed to hear that anyone feels the need to by-pass, in toto, the present system at Lyn/2 Gp.
Ultimately, we paid a (small) price for our actions but we were quite happy to do so - nor, incidently, do we regret it and our consciences remain clear.
We sincerely hope that everyone else can say the same in the future?
Just be careful.
Bon jour mon brave. You might be talking about someone I know?
While we went for the jugular at 2* level , our command chain at the time was totally ragged (only in the AT fleet would we have no decent Int Cell at Grope, no real input at PJHQ and the Stn Cdr and 4 out of 5 Wg Cdrs out of circulation, while our chaps are being shot at every night without the correct trg, support or kit!)
Nonetheless, what was left of the C2 chain were informed of our misgivings - but they didn't have the inclination to reply, so we just escalated things a bit - as it were!
Fortunately, our fleet were:
a. VERY lucky
b. Blessed with excellent crews, whose skill has never really been recognised.
c. Well supported by the lower staff echelons and a 2* who got the hint.
The net result was that we didn't lose an ac in those Ops and all we got was a one-sided interview with the returning OC - who was totally unaware of what we were all doing on Ops and who never even bothered to ask.
Grope saw us as 'scaremongers' who were ruining their chances of a medal. But, at least, we felt we could look ourselves in the eye of a morning.
It was no co-incidence that a lot of staff-work was req'd to get the higher echelons up to speed.
Nor was it a co-incidence that we kept our No1s in the office for the whole of Veritas/Telic - not because we feared a severe boll0cking but because we remembered when we lost an ac in 1993 and we couldn't find enough W/Cs to visit all the families at the same time.
At least these days, some the training that crews get reflects what might be asked of them. Also, thanks to some really sharp work by a few top-rate staff blokes, more AT aircraft have a decent DAS (not ALL - sadly!)
But, if people have similar feelings about the failings of new Eng system at Lyn, at least you SHOULD have a system in place to circumvent your immediate C2 chain if they are NOT listening - so keep using Murphys and Condors until you are blue in the face - keep a paper trail, too.
Hopefully, the rumour that DASC is but a shadow of IFS and that it has lost its teeth are unfounded......? Also, do not hesitate to call in favours from mates in staff posts - they can very helpful!
In the situation to that which you referred, we would argue that we were justified at the time to by-pass the 'chaff' but we would also not recommend it as a first course of action and would be alarmed to hear that anyone feels the need to by-pass, in toto, the present system at Lyn/2 Gp.
Ultimately, we paid a (small) price for our actions but we were quite happy to do so - nor, incidently, do we regret it and our consciences remain clear.
We sincerely hope that everyone else can say the same in the future?
Just be careful.
Short Blunt Shock
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Now, why does that all sound SO familiar, Flipster? I sincerely hope history isn't about to repeat itself with a VERY different outcome, but I fear it may be the case unless some very complacent fingers are pulled out of some very comfortable arses soonest!
I note that in the case of somebody that both you and I know, (as I thought it would) the outcome was in the end, satisfactory (at least for the time being!) - I fear now that we no longer have even THAT flexibility to circumnavigate - we truly DO appear to have hit the bottom of the proverbial this time, and I fail to see the 'proverbial' bag that we are going to pull it out of this time - unless the IPT ha something on the go that I am not privy to!
For what it's worth, old chap, I personally thought that the individual in question did EXACTLY the right thing at the time, and recieved a great deal of undeserved flak for it - at the end of the day, SOMEBODY has to stick their head above the papapet!
As an aside, I hear that our 'alleged' pilot surplus of "70+" has now fallen to a deficit (albeit single figured) - add to that the anecdotal fact that Sqns are haemorrageing experience at at horrendous rate, and you may be getting a 'reserve terms' call-up anytime soon!!!
Take care, chap!
16B
Edited because I can't spell 'complacent'
I note that in the case of somebody that both you and I know, (as I thought it would) the outcome was in the end, satisfactory (at least for the time being!) - I fear now that we no longer have even THAT flexibility to circumnavigate - we truly DO appear to have hit the bottom of the proverbial this time, and I fail to see the 'proverbial' bag that we are going to pull it out of this time - unless the IPT ha something on the go that I am not privy to!
For what it's worth, old chap, I personally thought that the individual in question did EXACTLY the right thing at the time, and recieved a great deal of undeserved flak for it - at the end of the day, SOMEBODY has to stick their head above the papapet!
As an aside, I hear that our 'alleged' pilot surplus of "70+" has now fallen to a deficit (albeit single figured) - add to that the anecdotal fact that Sqns are haemorrageing experience at at horrendous rate, and you may be getting a 'reserve terms' call-up anytime soon!!!
Take care, chap!
16B
Edited because I can't spell 'complacent'
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One of the major down falls to the engineering fraternity, imho, is the lack of identity provided by the rapid turn out of different working practises. Remember the old days when we had A and B line then 24/30 and 47/70 and the knowledge of where we were going and what we were doing. It provided an identity and a bit of health competition that kept the standards up, something to work for.
Now it has been turned into little more than a factory it does make one wonder as to why one should want to stay at all. There are jobs like that one the outside and I for one left civvie street to get away from that culture.
Still nice of the Air Secretary to turn up and say that the whole lean study was based on piecemeal areas of the RAF then applied service wide and that it was the wrong thing to do.
No surprise to here that the fix is years away because we have now become understaffed hence the reduction in the amount of persons getting the next redundancies!
Now it has been turned into little more than a factory it does make one wonder as to why one should want to stay at all. There are jobs like that one the outside and I for one left civvie street to get away from that culture.
Still nice of the Air Secretary to turn up and say that the whole lean study was based on piecemeal areas of the RAF then applied service wide and that it was the wrong thing to do.
No surprise to here that the fix is years away because we have now become understaffed hence the reduction in the amount of persons getting the next redundancies!
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Sumps
I remember those halycon days. The competition you refer to did indeed keep up the standards and we used to take the line guys n girls away with us on trainers to see the sharp end of what they did.
As Flipster says, it is so sadly predictable and in my view only going to get worse.
Those of you still in have my deepest sympathies. Keep safe...
I remember those halycon days. The competition you refer to did indeed keep up the standards and we used to take the line guys n girls away with us on trainers to see the sharp end of what they did.
As Flipster says, it is so sadly predictable and in my view only going to get worse.
Those of you still in have my deepest sympathies. Keep safe...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Lyneham wheels read pprune - you bet. DASC not read pprune - you have to be joking.
There is plenty of evidence that they not only read it but even start threads. UAVs in class G airspace. Yeah, a normal prune topic.
Low flying helos, MODs not interested in that? Pull the othert one.
The sex mad sqn ldr. OK, non-aircrew, read the Mirror.
You can bet your sweet bippy that the Lynham thread gets top billing.
There is plenty of evidence that they not only read it but even start threads. UAVs in class G airspace. Yeah, a normal prune topic.
Low flying helos, MODs not interested in that? Pull the othert one.
The sex mad sqn ldr. OK, non-aircrew, read the Mirror.
You can bet your sweet bippy that the Lynham thread gets top billing.
'scuse me from being a muppit (no pun intended!) but won't the 47/70/24/30 centralised eng mularky have to DECENTRALISE again when the new J jobbers leg it to RAF Brazed Mutton?
If so, why did her holiness centralise it in the first place or is it just that I don't have the big picture?
Apols if this bleeding obviousness has been threaded before.
If so, why did her holiness centralise it in the first place or is it just that I don't have the big picture?
Apols if this bleeding obviousness has been threaded before.
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How about a different angle???? I am a long suffering wife of a Techie at Lyneham, having been in the Air Force myself I am gobsmacked at what I am hearing, do Lyneham not have to follow Health and Safety and Lone Working????
I know from just hearing what my husband has to say no one is listening to what is going on and it seems that the people that could do something about it are hiding in their offices and act supprised when comments are made to them. If anyone wants to meet the AOC then questions have to of course go through their bosses and the CO first so what hope do they have of being listened to.
My husband comes in with his a***** dragging on the floor after working 4 days or 4 nights and then spends 2 days sleeping or doing admin on camp in his stand down.
The RAF is not Honda or BMW it must have been proved by now that the system is not working both for the lads and the a/c.
The lastest rumour is that they will be divided once again into two, J and K in time for Christmas. For the sake of work and home life i hope it happens.
Sufferingwife at Lynham
I know from just hearing what my husband has to say no one is listening to what is going on and it seems that the people that could do something about it are hiding in their offices and act supprised when comments are made to them. If anyone wants to meet the AOC then questions have to of course go through their bosses and the CO first so what hope do they have of being listened to.
My husband comes in with his a***** dragging on the floor after working 4 days or 4 nights and then spends 2 days sleeping or doing admin on camp in his stand down.
The RAF is not Honda or BMW it must have been proved by now that the system is not working both for the lads and the a/c.
The lastest rumour is that they will be divided once again into two, J and K in time for Christmas. For the sake of work and home life i hope it happens.
Sufferingwife at Lynham
Last edited by sufferingwife; 19th Sep 2005 at 18:53.
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The joining of J's and K's is not the biggest problem, it is the simple fact of a total lack of manpower, and simple common sense should tell the management, it is handy to have at least ONE person of the relevant trade and aircraft (K or J) on a maintainence dest. I am absolutly amazed that a shift is allowed to run with NO J riggers or K lekkies, and various other trades are at a bare minimum, and when an engine running team cannot be made as there is insufficient people avaliable is a joke. Also, why is there not someone qualified for independant inspections on EVERY SHIFT EVERY DAY????? work is being left for 2 or 3 shifts due to having no-one avaliable to carry out these vital checks????
As the above post mentions, the RAF needs to be dynamic and respond operational needs, NOT be stripped to an absolute bare minimum and worked flat out 24/7, as it leaves NO flexability whatsoever
It is NOT lean, it is counter productive and it is at best an absolute waste of resources, at worst a hideous flight safty accident waiting to happen.
If anyone is reading this who has authority to do somthing about it, consider these simple steps.
1) GIVE US MANPOWER- recombine the line and flecs, and make sure there are at least 10 of each trade per shift. 2SNCO's , 2 CPLS and 6 JT /SAC's. This will mean actually being able to cover leave/courses/detachments/dutys
2) buy us some SAFE, USEFUL staging that is tailored for the job, not just closest to use and cheapest.
3) Sort the mess out that the tool system has become, it is dangeorus, overcomplicated and there are not sufficient tools.
we do not need lean, we need common sense and communication between the (thankfully new) management and the people who are doing the job, not just blind implication of new systems like lean just because it worked in a sausage factory
As the above post mentions, the RAF needs to be dynamic and respond operational needs, NOT be stripped to an absolute bare minimum and worked flat out 24/7, as it leaves NO flexability whatsoever
It is NOT lean, it is counter productive and it is at best an absolute waste of resources, at worst a hideous flight safty accident waiting to happen.
If anyone is reading this who has authority to do somthing about it, consider these simple steps.
1) GIVE US MANPOWER- recombine the line and flecs, and make sure there are at least 10 of each trade per shift. 2SNCO's , 2 CPLS and 6 JT /SAC's. This will mean actually being able to cover leave/courses/detachments/dutys
2) buy us some SAFE, USEFUL staging that is tailored for the job, not just closest to use and cheapest.
3) Sort the mess out that the tool system has become, it is dangeorus, overcomplicated and there are not sufficient tools.
we do not need lean, we need common sense and communication between the (thankfully new) management and the people who are doing the job, not just blind implication of new systems like lean just because it worked in a sausage factory
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It would appear that the designer of the LEAN programme at EGDL has misread the COD. While the first definition listed is;
the individual concerned seems to have used the the third definition;
thin; having no superfluous fat.
meagre; of poor quality
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Things must be getting even worse at Lyneham,
It turns out today that a certain OEU due to depart for the USA on Sunday has found out today that instead of having 2 Hercs for the trail to the USA, now has one, after somebody spotted that one of the Hercs that it had been alloted for the past 6 months+ has actually only got 10 hours left on it until it is due a Major servicing.
It turns out today that a certain OEU due to depart for the USA on Sunday has found out today that instead of having 2 Hercs for the trail to the USA, now has one, after somebody spotted that one of the Hercs that it had been alloted for the past 6 months+ has actually only got 10 hours left on it until it is due a Major servicing.