Last true dogfight?
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Last true dogfight?
I wonder if anyone here could settle an argument.
When was the last real dogfight between aircraft? By that I mean a manoeuvering fight between 2 or more aircraft to get in position for a shot, not an AIM-120 from BVR or a one-sided ambush.
I thought maybe Sea Harriers in the Falklands 1982 but would be interested if anyone knows of more recent encounters.
Many thanks.
When was the last real dogfight between aircraft? By that I mean a manoeuvering fight between 2 or more aircraft to get in position for a shot, not an AIM-120 from BVR or a one-sided ambush.
I thought maybe Sea Harriers in the Falklands 1982 but would be interested if anyone knows of more recent encounters.
Many thanks.
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A USAF MQ-1 Predator UAV popped a round off - a Stinger I seem to remember - against an Iraqi air force MiG just before the hostilities kicked off in early 2003, but it got shot down in the process because its opponent had longer-range weapons. Not sure that classes as a dogfight though...
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My dad flies model aircraft, he knocked a Slingsby glider model out of the sky with his model BAE Hawk on a slope out near Ladybower a couple of weeks ago. Scratch oneeeee. Does this count as a true dogfight too?
Sorry Spruce no sarcasm intended! Just highlighting how modern dogfighting must be awfully dull for the "pilot" with the radio control pad on the ground.
But in all seriousness, as Spruce says are we including dogfights involving UAVs? If not, would it be during GW1?
Sorry Spruce no sarcasm intended! Just highlighting how modern dogfighting must be awfully dull for the "pilot" with the radio control pad on the ground.
But in all seriousness, as Spruce says are we including dogfights involving UAVs? If not, would it be during GW1?
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India and Pakistan have shot one or two of each other's jets down within the last 10 years - can't remember whether any were air to air. Also possibly Israel vs Syria in early 80s. Also of course RAFG Phantom vs Jag, not BVR but not exactly a dogfight either!
Michael, you have to define the `fight`; is it an old-fashioned `guns` doggers; piston v piston, piston v jet, jet v jet ?
Last piston v jet was Nov 11 `66, A-1H V Mig 17(Viet n af)-scratch one MiG!
Last piston v piston was during the`Soccer War` of `69 between Honduras and El Salvador when Lt Fernando Soto shot down 2 F4U/FG-1`s,and one P-51 of the Salvadorean Air Force, whilst flying F4U-5 `609`. Jet vJet ......dunno.!
Last piston v jet was Nov 11 `66, A-1H V Mig 17(Viet n af)-scratch one MiG!
Last piston v piston was during the`Soccer War` of `69 between Honduras and El Salvador when Lt Fernando Soto shot down 2 F4U/FG-1`s,and one P-51 of the Salvadorean Air Force, whilst flying F4U-5 `609`. Jet vJet ......dunno.!
Would a hypothetical encounter betwween a Sidewinder armed (no radar, no guns, no BVR) Harrier GR9 and a hostile attack aircraft in the next few years (ie the gap between Sea Jet and F35/JSF) count as a dogfight?
Not a thread hijack - honest!
Not a thread hijack - honest!
It being almost home time and being a bit pedantic, the answer to the question is:
Today!
You asked:"By that I mean a manoeuvering fight between 2 or more aircraft to get in position for a shot"
You said nothing about actually taking a shot or any shot resulting in a downing of one or more aircraft, just getting into a position for a shot! Something that is done day in day out in routine training sorties the world over.
Now, if you are asking "why do some air forces spend so much time practicing BFM (basic fighter manoeuvres) when the last time they were actually used in anger has alluded the corporate memory of Pprune", then that is a different story.
Off home now!
Tarnished
Today!
You asked:"By that I mean a manoeuvering fight between 2 or more aircraft to get in position for a shot"
You said nothing about actually taking a shot or any shot resulting in a downing of one or more aircraft, just getting into a position for a shot! Something that is done day in day out in routine training sorties the world over.
Now, if you are asking "why do some air forces spend so much time practicing BFM (basic fighter manoeuvres) when the last time they were actually used in anger has alluded the corporate memory of Pprune", then that is a different story.
Off home now!
Tarnished
WEBF, I think you probably just get away with not having Magic Mushroom consulting the 'Hitmen' section of Yellow Pages....
My suspicion is that the Ethiopia vs Eritrea war is probably the last instance, with air-air victories being claimed in 2000 after clashes between Su-27s and MiG-29s - if the various reports are true, that is...
I've no idea how accurate the Air Combat Information Group website is, but they have a page on the subject here
My suspicion is that the Ethiopia vs Eritrea war is probably the last instance, with air-air victories being claimed in 2000 after clashes between Su-27s and MiG-29s - if the various reports are true, that is...
I've no idea how accurate the Air Combat Information Group website is, but they have a page on the subject here
Tarnished,
I see you are still being contrary!
The US had some little publicised skirmishes with the Lybians off soutern Italy, F15 v MiG ?? some time ago. Don't know the details.
How about the Becca(sp) Valley fight between Israel and Syria. 1-0 (measured in air forces) to the Israelis. Long time ago, but it was many v many, jet. Lots of lessons to be gained from that one.
Regards,
MB
I see you are still being contrary!
The US had some little publicised skirmishes with the Lybians off soutern Italy, F15 v MiG ?? some time ago. Don't know the details.
How about the Becca(sp) Valley fight between Israel and Syria. 1-0 (measured in air forces) to the Israelis. Long time ago, but it was many v many, jet. Lots of lessons to be gained from that one.
Regards,
MB
The most recent *confirmed* dog fight about which there has been almost full disclosure came during the 1991 Gulf war. Two F-15s merged with a single MiG-29 and VID'd it before entering a turning fight. The MiG flew into the ground after a few turns. The merge/VID was conducted co-altitude with a lateral seperation of some 50', so it counts as a proper fight in my book.
The Balkans kills - both F-16 and F-15 - mentioned by another poster did not involve getting to the merge and were predomintanly initiated BVR and terminated within visual range.
There have been a few skirmishes since then that seem not to have been fully disclosed. The Greek Mirage vs. Turkish Viper is certainly one, but there are strong indications that more recently Eritrean Su-27s and Ethiopian MiG-29s have also battled it out amongst themselves. Did they actually get to the merge, or shoot eachother BVR or simply within visual range? Dunno.
The Balkans kills - both F-16 and F-15 - mentioned by another poster did not involve getting to the merge and were predomintanly initiated BVR and terminated within visual range.
There have been a few skirmishes since then that seem not to have been fully disclosed. The Greek Mirage vs. Turkish Viper is certainly one, but there are strong indications that more recently Eritrean Su-27s and Ethiopian MiG-29s have also battled it out amongst themselves. Did they actually get to the merge, or shoot eachother BVR or simply within visual range? Dunno.
Ewan,
The ACIG article linked to above suggests that the Ethopian/Eritrean clash involved manouevre, R-73s and cannon fire, so if it's right, I guess that counts? The relevant bit in the article is in the section 'Sukhoi contra MiG' [sic]
The ACIG article linked to above suggests that the Ethopian/Eritrean clash involved manouevre, R-73s and cannon fire, so if it's right, I guess that counts? The relevant bit in the article is in the section 'Sukhoi contra MiG' [sic]
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The US had some little publicised skirmishes with the Lybians off soutern Italy, F15 v MiG
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../posts?page=18
OFB,
Sadly, the squadron leader who flew against the Migs was killed not too long afterwards when his F-18 ran off the runway and overturned. He was a very well respected leader of fighter pilots amongst the Navy pilots I was acquainted with at his F-14 Squadron.
Sadly, the squadron leader who flew against the Migs was killed not too long afterwards when his F-18 ran off the runway and overturned. He was a very well respected leader of fighter pilots amongst the Navy pilots I was acquainted with at his F-14 Squadron.
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Somewhat belatedly, thanks for the answers to this.
Seems the consensus is the Ethopian/Eritrean clash, which I'd never heard of, in fact I didn't think African airforces such as those could afford such advanced planes, for some reason thought they would be using ex-RAF Hunters or old MIG-17s!
Seems the consensus is the Ethopian/Eritrean clash, which I'd never heard of, in fact I didn't think African airforces such as those could afford such advanced planes, for some reason thought they would be using ex-RAF Hunters or old MIG-17s!
