MiG 29 OVT video
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MiG 29 OVT video
The MiG-29 OVT was demonstrated at Zhukovsky recently. This is a video of that demonstration.
The OVT has new all-axis thrust vectoring nozzles.
http://www.alert5.com/2005/08/mig-29...video-wmv.html
The OVT has new all-axis thrust vectoring nozzles.
http://www.alert5.com/2005/08/mig-29...video-wmv.html
TheVillagePhotographer.co.uk
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cotswolds UK
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stunning... the last minute or so shows one nozzle doing its' stuff on the ground after the display and it is mesmerising.
I wonder what those nozzles might do on the Typhoon? Well worth the download.
Conan
I wonder what those nozzles might do on the Typhoon? Well worth the download.
Conan
Great video, but sure looks like they missed a few bolts out of the tail end.
Wonder how many anti chuckup pills you need to fly in it.
If only I had worked harder, If ........
Wonder how many anti chuckup pills you need to fly in it.
If only I had worked harder, If ........
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Conan
TVC would not really be appropriate for the Typhoon because it was designed to be unstable in pitch to reduce trim drag when manoeuvring at high IMN. Such instability requires a minimum airspeed for aerodynamic control to be retained. As I am sure you are aware the benefits of TVC are not available to any aeroplane at medium or high speed where high sideslip or AOA would cause structural failure.
Of course in theory you could use TVC to control low speed instability and expand the Typhoon envelope to lower speeds but that would not be a minor mod to the flight control software and would make normal TVC and engine operation essential for safe flight in that regime – giving rise to a pretty complicated reliability case.
It all makes you realise how much the world has moved on from when the Russians and the West started designing these fighters as a means of national defence. Today the extremely potent Apache is rendered almost impotent near a place where bad guys live in case it gets spotted by one with a WWII RPG (costing a few quid) and none of the old Cold War based aircraft solutions are any help defending Central London from things individuals can carry in a rucksack.
With 20/20 the Cold War was a wonderful period - easy to understand, easy to live through and in reality very safe for ordinary folk to go about their business. Sorry to wander off topic.
TVC would not really be appropriate for the Typhoon because it was designed to be unstable in pitch to reduce trim drag when manoeuvring at high IMN. Such instability requires a minimum airspeed for aerodynamic control to be retained. As I am sure you are aware the benefits of TVC are not available to any aeroplane at medium or high speed where high sideslip or AOA would cause structural failure.
Of course in theory you could use TVC to control low speed instability and expand the Typhoon envelope to lower speeds but that would not be a minor mod to the flight control software and would make normal TVC and engine operation essential for safe flight in that regime – giving rise to a pretty complicated reliability case.
It all makes you realise how much the world has moved on from when the Russians and the West started designing these fighters as a means of national defence. Today the extremely potent Apache is rendered almost impotent near a place where bad guys live in case it gets spotted by one with a WWII RPG (costing a few quid) and none of the old Cold War based aircraft solutions are any help defending Central London from things individuals can carry in a rucksack.
With 20/20 the Cold War was a wonderful period - easy to understand, easy to live through and in reality very safe for ordinary folk to go about their business. Sorry to wander off topic.
TheVillagePhotographer.co.uk
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cotswolds UK
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks John - that helps my fevered mind no end :-) I must be honest, I had a picture in my mind of the Typhoon some 20 years hence, when even Fraggle Rock may be armed with some "Son of Flanker" derivative and was thinking more towads the mid life scenario, where as a mature system, its performance is beginning to look a bit more ordinary by comparison and it like myself, may have gained weight (Ounces in my case - honest Guv') ccompared to the carefree days of youth. I really cannot remember a combat (or service) aircraft that has maintained its lithe form through its intended lifespan. Apart from maybe the Sloggi balloon, that is.
I note and understand your comments re: the advantages of TVC at the lower end of the envelope, but would a MLU including TVC be feasible, desirable or indeed possible in years to come? I wonder?
Conan
I note and understand your comments re: the advantages of TVC at the lower end of the envelope, but would a MLU including TVC be feasible, desirable or indeed possible in years to come? I wonder?
Conan
TVC can only be a paliative for poor weapons integration.
Greater minds than ours decided that Typhoon plus ASRAAM plus a HMD with which to slew it to high off-boresight angles was they way to go. As JF points out TVC really only has an effect at slower speeds, a clever party trick if you will but no defence for an AMRAAM or AMRAAMSKI or AIM9X.
If you are not going at the speed of heat (if you've decided to come to the merge in the first place) you are effectively a sitting duck, not generating any sightline or displacement.
Early positive ID, supportive ROE and sensors and weapons that you can fire from BVR, if you need to merge do it at M1.6+ and slew the missiles with the HMD.
TVC for directional control to allow you to get rid of the fin and the drag and the RCS might be a slightly different arguement, but I don't believe it would be worth it.
Tarnished
Greater minds than ours decided that Typhoon plus ASRAAM plus a HMD with which to slew it to high off-boresight angles was they way to go. As JF points out TVC really only has an effect at slower speeds, a clever party trick if you will but no defence for an AMRAAM or AMRAAMSKI or AIM9X.
If you are not going at the speed of heat (if you've decided to come to the merge in the first place) you are effectively a sitting duck, not generating any sightline or displacement.
Early positive ID, supportive ROE and sensors and weapons that you can fire from BVR, if you need to merge do it at M1.6+ and slew the missiles with the HMD.
TVC for directional control to allow you to get rid of the fin and the drag and the RCS might be a slightly different arguement, but I don't believe it would be worth it.
Tarnished
It's like the Cobra or the tailslide though, Tarnished. It's a jaw-dropping, show-stopping, attention grabbing piece of showbiz flummery, and it stops anyone from questioning that aircraft's 'agility'.
The only folk that end up questioning the agility are the uninformed or ill informed that think that what they can see from the outside is all there is to it.
Agreed, Cobra, Tailslide and this "corkscrew" are all impressive man beating the laws of physics, gravity and aerodynamics, but if the man in the cockpit does not have the sensors, weapons, controls and displays suitably integrated and refined and a favourable set of ROE then all is lost.
Tarnished
Agreed, Cobra, Tailslide and this "corkscrew" are all impressive man beating the laws of physics, gravity and aerodynamics, but if the man in the cockpit does not have the sensors, weapons, controls and displays suitably integrated and refined and a favourable set of ROE then all is lost.
Tarnished
TheVillagePhotographer.co.uk
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cotswolds UK
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aah - my befuddled memory goes back to an F-16 based programme in the 70s. Was it AFTI? From the limited information that I gleaned, it was a case of pilot overload and knowing what the hell the thing was trying to do and having to chase it mentally, rather than t'other way around.
The question to me as a lay person, still remains. If we move 20 or even 30 years on, then how "current" is Typhoon going to be and what is kept up the sleeve for that point in time?
Yes, the World has changed enormously. We couldn't have dreamt of this when EFA was first mooted. Third, fourth and maybe fifth generation fighters are going to appear in all sorts of places, even if we discount China. When Typhoon is fat, happy and bloated, what capability is left up the sleeve other than tactics?
A diversion here - Why are the Tiffie' burners so incredibly bright? Is it just temperatures, jetpipe length or what? They are magnitudes brighter than anything else I can think of, but I suppose, there again, the Jag, with that pale blue, "Calor gas" flame, is rather reminiscent of the thing that burns your kebab to death and unlikely to be visible more than 50 yds up the High Street.
Again - I am a Lay person - please indulge me :-)
Regards to all,
Conan
The question to me as a lay person, still remains. If we move 20 or even 30 years on, then how "current" is Typhoon going to be and what is kept up the sleeve for that point in time?
Yes, the World has changed enormously. We couldn't have dreamt of this when EFA was first mooted. Third, fourth and maybe fifth generation fighters are going to appear in all sorts of places, even if we discount China. When Typhoon is fat, happy and bloated, what capability is left up the sleeve other than tactics?
A diversion here - Why are the Tiffie' burners so incredibly bright? Is it just temperatures, jetpipe length or what? They are magnitudes brighter than anything else I can think of, but I suppose, there again, the Jag, with that pale blue, "Calor gas" flame, is rather reminiscent of the thing that burns your kebab to death and unlikely to be visible more than 50 yds up the High Street.
Again - I am a Lay person - please indulge me :-)
Regards to all,
Conan
CTL,
The thing to bear in mind is that there are a huge number of people employed all over the world looking into exactly the question you raise. Trade off studies are going on all over the place. If I pay x to increase my radar detection range or I pay y to give my missile longer legs what will it get me at a campaign level. Lots of people with pointy heads and coke bottle bottom glasses with slide rule, algorithms and CFD models (computational fluid dynamics) {I used to have the first one, the second is a "big sum" and the third is a room full of computers} They are all crunching numbers which are fed back to the planners and Operational Requirements folks to decide what they are going to spend an ever decreasing budget on to make sure the political aspirations of the country can be best supported.
For Typhoon in the future, ASRAAM, Meteor still with a good HMD possibly a radar upgrade but not TVC. Stormshadow, Brimstone and Paveway IV.
The burners are stunning, all to do with the laws of thermodynamics, put more coal on the fire and you get a bigger fire. Engines are pretty far aft too.
Tarnished
The thing to bear in mind is that there are a huge number of people employed all over the world looking into exactly the question you raise. Trade off studies are going on all over the place. If I pay x to increase my radar detection range or I pay y to give my missile longer legs what will it get me at a campaign level. Lots of people with pointy heads and coke bottle bottom glasses with slide rule, algorithms and CFD models (computational fluid dynamics) {I used to have the first one, the second is a "big sum" and the third is a room full of computers} They are all crunching numbers which are fed back to the planners and Operational Requirements folks to decide what they are going to spend an ever decreasing budget on to make sure the political aspirations of the country can be best supported.
For Typhoon in the future, ASRAAM, Meteor still with a good HMD possibly a radar upgrade but not TVC. Stormshadow, Brimstone and Paveway IV.
The burners are stunning, all to do with the laws of thermodynamics, put more coal on the fire and you get a bigger fire. Engines are pretty far aft too.
Tarnished
I'matightbastard
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the last minute or so shows one nozzle doing its' stuff on the ground after the display and it is mesmerising
TheVillagePhotographer.co.uk
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cotswolds UK
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Errr.... Onan is right to raise this issue... It has been bothering me too. As soon as I saw the video, it reminded me of something in the distant past. I have been trying, ever since posting originally to work out what it was - and now, I have!
This is going back a long, long time... over 30 years in fact, but who remembers the "Orgasmatron" in the film Barbarella? Cheers Onan!
Thanks for your replies peeps. Keep 'em coming.
Conan
This is going back a long, long time... over 30 years in fact, but who remembers the "Orgasmatron" in the film Barbarella? Cheers Onan!
Thanks for your replies peeps. Keep 'em coming.
Conan
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Englandshire
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OFBSLF!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Orgasmatron" in the film Barbarella
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That was not in Barbarella. It was in the Woody Allen movie "Sleeper".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was, in fact an Orgasmatron in the film Barbarella. I have not seen the Woody Allen movie "Sleeper", so I can't tell you whether or not they were the same model of Orgasmatron or even made by the same manufacturer.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Orgasmatron" in the film Barbarella
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That was not in Barbarella. It was in the Woody Allen movie "Sleeper".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was, in fact an Orgasmatron in the film Barbarella. I have not seen the Woody Allen movie "Sleeper", so I can't tell you whether or not they were the same model of Orgasmatron or even made by the same manufacturer.
I'matightbastard
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A tangent theoretically has no beginning or end, just a middle. It is infinite in length.
I thought there was an entire film called Orgasmatron. I'll have to check next time I'm at the video store.
I thought there was an entire film called Orgasmatron. I'll have to check next time I'm at the video store.