Just Where Does the Buck Stop?
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Just Where Does the Buck Stop?
Quote from a serving officer in Iraq drawn from today's e-telegraph in response to the current Courts Martial.
A third officer with senior command experience in Iraq said: "Any officer not prepared to accept responsibility for all that happens under his command forfeits the right to that command. You can delegate responsibility but you can never discharge yourself from it."
Now without discussing the pros and cons of this particular prosecution where do Pruners think the buck ought to stop - in essence how far up the command chain do we go when investigating '... all that happens under [his] command ... '
A third officer with senior command experience in Iraq said: "Any officer not prepared to accept responsibility for all that happens under his command forfeits the right to that command. You can delegate responsibility but you can never discharge yourself from it."
Now without discussing the pros and cons of this particular prosecution where do Pruners think the buck ought to stop - in essence how far up the command chain do we go when investigating '... all that happens under [his] command ... '
As a certain ex-CDS could have told you, Impiger, Bienvenida Buck used to stop at the Dorchester.
An old hotel in the heart of London!
An old hotel in the heart of London!
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I was cycling through the countryside once when I saw a beautiful doe come running out of the woods. She paused close to me, smoothed her silky coat and I swear I heard her say:
"That's the last time I do THAT for two bucks.".
"That's the last time I do THAT for two bucks.".
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Seriously, there was a time in the 70s, in the FJ Force, that the blames culture saw the buck swathing through wg cdrs and stn cdrs everytime there was an accident.
I don't think this was confined to the best air force either.
Then reality kicked back in. If you chop the command chain every time something happens you soon run out of commanders. As desk is far safer if less fun; pays the school fees and gets the sprogs through uni.
A couple of books by Gerry Carrol (I think) North Star being one, was about USN Ops etc in Vietnam. Excellent aviation author, ex-pilot, unfortunately only got 2 books out before Big C got him.
He was always railling against the REMF Command chain always keeping an eye on their 6.
I don't think this was confined to the best air force either.
Then reality kicked back in. If you chop the command chain every time something happens you soon run out of commanders. As desk is far safer if less fun; pays the school fees and gets the sprogs through uni.
A couple of books by Gerry Carrol (I think) North Star being one, was about USN Ops etc in Vietnam. Excellent aviation author, ex-pilot, unfortunately only got 2 books out before Big C got him.
He was always railling against the REMF Command chain always keeping an eye on their 6.
Do you still have to study military law for first appointment?
If so, remember the doctrine of condonation?
If you are aware of an offence by a junior, and you do nothing about it, you have condoned it, and YOU get courtsmartialled.
If so, remember the doctrine of condonation?
If you are aware of an offence by a junior, and you do nothing about it, you have condoned it, and YOU get courtsmartialled.
In US Navy terms.... Zero's take no hits!
Rank has a way of deterring arrows.....which seem to wind up in lower ranking individuals.
Rank has a way of deterring arrows.....which seem to wind up in lower ranking individuals.
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Rank has a way of deterring arrows.....which seem to wind up in lower ranking individuals.
VG
Quote
.doctrine of condonation?
If you are aware of an offence by a junior, and you do nothing about it, you have condoned it, and YOU get courtsmartialled.
Im sure legal eagles will clarify this, but is doctrine of condonation not, in practice, there to provide protection to the junior who, if his action is seen to be condoned and is allowed to continue his duties, cannot subsequently be court-martialled? That the superior can be court-martialled is a logical extension of this but, I suspect, seldom invoked. Otherwise the MoD would be bereft of its senior ranks/grades. Not that bad a thing I suppose....
.doctrine of condonation?
If you are aware of an offence by a junior, and you do nothing about it, you have condoned it, and YOU get courtsmartialled.
Im sure legal eagles will clarify this, but is doctrine of condonation not, in practice, there to provide protection to the junior who, if his action is seen to be condoned and is allowed to continue his duties, cannot subsequently be court-martialled? That the superior can be court-martialled is a logical extension of this but, I suspect, seldom invoked. Otherwise the MoD would be bereft of its senior ranks/grades. Not that bad a thing I suppose....
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In order to have condoned an offence, the Commander would have had to have known about it. If he/she is none-the-wiser until after the event and then, upon becoming aware of it, subsequently organises an investigation, surely he/she cannot be considered to have condoned the offence?
I have no qualms about accepting responsibility for the actions of my men and I but the latest situation does seem to be a case of going as high as possible without getting to those that are ultimately responsible?
I have no qualms about accepting responsibility for the actions of my men and I but the latest situation does seem to be a case of going as high as possible without getting to those that are ultimately responsible?
IMO, if a commander can be shown to have allowed his subordinates to develop a general attitude which would permit illegal actions, then he, along with those directly involved, would be culpable. Thus, even though he may not be aware of individual offences, he can be held responsible for them.
However, to hold a commander responsible for all the actions of his subordinates, regardless of the circumstances, seems unreasonable in the extreme.
However, to hold a commander responsible for all the actions of his subordinates, regardless of the circumstances, seems unreasonable in the extreme.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Just Where Does the Buck Stop?
Somewhere between the front bumper and the bonnet lid I'd guess!
Or perhaps about the headrest area!
SS
Somewhere between the front bumper and the bonnet lid I'd guess!
Or perhaps about the headrest area!
SS
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I seem to remember in the V Force the tarif was :-
A Squadron Commander's or Flight Commander's head for a Cat 5, depending on who had the best "friends at Court".
The Station Commander (or Wing Commander in SAC) entered the tumbril if there was a second Cat 5 during his period in command.
At Waddo there was a fatal Cat 5 while the Squadron Commander was standing in as Station Commander. C-in-C came on the blower asking for the Staish.
"Sorry, Sir, he's on leave and I am acting CO"
"What's he doing going on leave at a time like this?!"
Just to make sure where the buck would stop, the Flight Commander found himself waiting outside the (acting) Station Commander's office within a few minutes to receive a copy of an Adverse Report on which he was required to comment within an hour!
He took 24 hours to comment, but it did him no good.
A Squadron Commander's or Flight Commander's head for a Cat 5, depending on who had the best "friends at Court".
The Station Commander (or Wing Commander in SAC) entered the tumbril if there was a second Cat 5 during his period in command.
At Waddo there was a fatal Cat 5 while the Squadron Commander was standing in as Station Commander. C-in-C came on the blower asking for the Staish.
"Sorry, Sir, he's on leave and I am acting CO"
"What's he doing going on leave at a time like this?!"
Just to make sure where the buck would stop, the Flight Commander found himself waiting outside the (acting) Station Commander's office within a few minutes to receive a copy of an Adverse Report on which he was required to comment within an hour!
He took 24 hours to comment, but it did him no good.
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I can't remember the detail, but wasn't Tailhook an exception to the rule above?
Ultimately the careers of fourteen admirals and almost 300 naval aviators were scuttled or damaged by Tailhook. For example Secretary of the Navy H. Lawrence Garrett III and CNO Admiral Frank Kelso were both at Tailhook '91. Garrett ultimately resigned and Kelso retired early two years after the convention.
See you in the Nugget on Sep 9th !!
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RLE -
Unless "all the actions of his subordinates, regardless of the circumstances" occured because they were "allowed ... to develop a general attitude which would permit illegal actions" by the commander.
Ok laddy, hold that can of worms in your left hand and when I shout "We have to remove this evil dictator for the good of mankind" you give the lid a firm yank with your right hand. Did I say Yank? NPI
Unless "all the actions of his subordinates, regardless of the circumstances" occured because they were "allowed ... to develop a general attitude which would permit illegal actions" by the commander.
Ok laddy, hold that can of worms in your left hand and when I shout "We have to remove this evil dictator for the good of mankind" you give the lid a firm yank with your right hand. Did I say Yank? NPI
I think with the greatest of respect, I haven't explained myself cery well, you are missing the point of "condonation" as it was explained by the QC who taught me military law.
The doctrine is there to prevent officers (and NCO's) from deliberately disobeying orders without putting ordinary soldiers/sailors/airman in an impossible position of double jeopardy.
I'll try and explain.
OR's have to do what they are told and rely on an Officer's word that what they are ordered to do to be legal. Anything else and they risk copping a charge of mutiny.
Lets just say, for arguments sake, that a theoretical CO decides we are "too soft" on Iraqis and let's it be known by word of mouth and hints that he will view the taking of prisoners with extreme displeasure. He prefers them dead.
In the following months no prisoners are taken although many Iraqis are "KIA".
Then a newspaper reporter sees someone shoot a wounded surrendering Iraqi in cold blood and an investigation ensues.
In such circumstances, provided evidence can be found, it is the CO who gets courtsmartialled.
The defence for OR's charged with shooting the wounded Iraqi, is of course "condonation". The CO knew about it, did nothing about it, and in fact encouraged it.
The defence is there to stop Officers from using the "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" technique to get around orders. As in "we both know its wrong to do this but I won't punish you for it because I really approve of what you are doing".
It's funny when it's about horsetrading BBQ's for heli rides and beer for demolition stores, but not always.
The doctrine is there to prevent officers (and NCO's) from deliberately disobeying orders without putting ordinary soldiers/sailors/airman in an impossible position of double jeopardy.
I'll try and explain.
OR's have to do what they are told and rely on an Officer's word that what they are ordered to do to be legal. Anything else and they risk copping a charge of mutiny.
Lets just say, for arguments sake, that a theoretical CO decides we are "too soft" on Iraqis and let's it be known by word of mouth and hints that he will view the taking of prisoners with extreme displeasure. He prefers them dead.
In the following months no prisoners are taken although many Iraqis are "KIA".
Then a newspaper reporter sees someone shoot a wounded surrendering Iraqi in cold blood and an investigation ensues.
In such circumstances, provided evidence can be found, it is the CO who gets courtsmartialled.
The defence for OR's charged with shooting the wounded Iraqi, is of course "condonation". The CO knew about it, did nothing about it, and in fact encouraged it.
The defence is there to stop Officers from using the "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" technique to get around orders. As in "we both know its wrong to do this but I won't punish you for it because I really approve of what you are doing".
It's funny when it's about horsetrading BBQ's for heli rides and beer for demolition stores, but not always.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Flatus Veteranus can't argue with authority or indeed with one of the good guys but some senior heads deserved to roll.
No names, but there was the sqn cdr at Coningsby who left his wheels at Coningsby and walked away from the jet at Waddington. Then one killed on a check ride.
Then a wg cdr (of a wg) who didn't report an overstress and also caught the new bus off the station.
My CO at Cottesmore survived a couple of near calls: the Coniston Fly Past, the 1 Gp Dining-in (but didn't they all) and my skipper knocking over a runway marker board with the leading edge (10 feet inboard) on a roller (it was the copilot what did it even if it was the port wing).
Cat 5ing cars on the other hand didn't count. The stn cdr who rammed OC Ops and wrote off two cars. Clearly no blame as it was ice and the runway was only 150 feet wide. Anyway, the wg cdr should not have stopped where he did.
Don't actually recall the short walk at Waddo when you were there.
No names, but there was the sqn cdr at Coningsby who left his wheels at Coningsby and walked away from the jet at Waddington. Then one killed on a check ride.
Then a wg cdr (of a wg) who didn't report an overstress and also caught the new bus off the station.
My CO at Cottesmore survived a couple of near calls: the Coniston Fly Past, the 1 Gp Dining-in (but didn't they all) and my skipper knocking over a runway marker board with the leading edge (10 feet inboard) on a roller (it was the copilot what did it even if it was the port wing).
Cat 5ing cars on the other hand didn't count. The stn cdr who rammed OC Ops and wrote off two cars. Clearly no blame as it was ice and the runway was only 150 feet wide. Anyway, the wg cdr should not have stopped where he did.
Don't actually recall the short walk at Waddo when you were there.
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A few senior heads rolled after the stuff up involving Hunters of the DFLS at West Raynham.
Strong rumour said that an Air Commodore was given his marching orders within 36 hours.
Strong rumour said that an Air Commodore was given his marching orders within 36 hours.
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Pontius Nav
The event at Waddo did not happen in my time, but was still recent folklore. There were no Cat 5s at Waddo in my time, thank Goodness.
The AOC who hosted the 1 Gp reunion did not go any further, which in those days was unusual.
The event at Waddo did not happen in my time, but was still recent folklore. There were no Cat 5s at Waddo in my time, thank Goodness.
The AOC who hosted the 1 Gp reunion did not go any further, which in those days was unusual.
