Freedom of Speech - Where's My Place?
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Freedom of Speech - Where's My Place?
Cor! - That PPrune Pop bloke doesn't half get the hump easily doesn't he.... I thought the whole idea of these forums was for frank (unfettered) exchanges of views. If the "Fighter Controllers -Know Your Place" thread was that bad it would have surely died a natural death much earlier wouldn't it?
Anyway, back to the issue. In my view (as a current customer), the E-3D is the best provider of its particular ISTAR product by a country mile (work with the A/C or F versions of the platform and you'll soon see what I mean). Such success is due, entirely, to the competence and professionalism of mission crews (including FC brevet holders) who draw on 15 or so years of operational experience. That these mission crews are comprised of various Aircrew and Ground specialists is, however, beside the point.
After 15 years, the FC portion of the E-3D fraternity d@mn well ought to be good at the job - but are we really supposed to believe that the E-3D would be any less capable if it had been crewed solely by aircrew from word go? - Let's get real...... The fundamental issue then, is whether FCs / ASOps should have ever been employed in such numbers on the platform in the first place. This is particularly topical, given the projected availability of AD-savvy former F-3 WSOs as that fleet declines. The writing already seems to be on the wall, with (formerly FC-annotated) Flt Cdr posts on both Sentry sqns now open only to aircrew branches. The aircrew "protectionism" mentioned by tablet_eraser earlier is further evidence of this. In short, the Service is now filling E-3D mission seats with the aircrew specialists who should have been there in the first place, now that they are becoming available.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that FCs should no longer populate the E-3D team, - just that the majority of (non-technician) mission seats should be allocated to aircrew. While Icecap's initial lure about "brevet borrowing" was just a bit of fishing; he did raise some valid points:
FC/AT brevets are the only flying badges currently awarded without any pre-cursor aircrew specialist trg (or for that matter aircrew aptitude testing) - as such, this diminishes their worth in the eyes of many on both sides of the debate. Surely it would be beneficial for all potential FC/AT brevet candidates to undergo aptitude testing, followed by successful completion of the Aircrew Specialist Course / CASC etc before proceeding to the Sentry OCU.
The preponderance of the FC branch across ITW / OES has nothing to do with experience in NEC (E-3D definitely does not lead that area in Lincs let alone the UK) - but is, rather, a reflection of how Sentr-ist (geddit?) Waddo has been until recently - (it took 3 years to get the name of the stn mag changed from Sentry for Cr@st's sake!.....).
The bottom line is that FCs do not "borrow" their brevets, they earn them (after a fashion) - what they have been doing for the past decade and a half though, is "borrowing" the seats that they'll shortly have to return to their rightful owners....
Hopefully, this post will be assessed by those with the power for what it is intended to be - a contribution to the debate. For the first time ever however, I'm not sure whether it'll see the light of day. And that, my friends, would be a shame...........
Anyway, back to the issue. In my view (as a current customer), the E-3D is the best provider of its particular ISTAR product by a country mile (work with the A/C or F versions of the platform and you'll soon see what I mean). Such success is due, entirely, to the competence and professionalism of mission crews (including FC brevet holders) who draw on 15 or so years of operational experience. That these mission crews are comprised of various Aircrew and Ground specialists is, however, beside the point.
After 15 years, the FC portion of the E-3D fraternity d@mn well ought to be good at the job - but are we really supposed to believe that the E-3D would be any less capable if it had been crewed solely by aircrew from word go? - Let's get real...... The fundamental issue then, is whether FCs / ASOps should have ever been employed in such numbers on the platform in the first place. This is particularly topical, given the projected availability of AD-savvy former F-3 WSOs as that fleet declines. The writing already seems to be on the wall, with (formerly FC-annotated) Flt Cdr posts on both Sentry sqns now open only to aircrew branches. The aircrew "protectionism" mentioned by tablet_eraser earlier is further evidence of this. In short, the Service is now filling E-3D mission seats with the aircrew specialists who should have been there in the first place, now that they are becoming available.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that FCs should no longer populate the E-3D team, - just that the majority of (non-technician) mission seats should be allocated to aircrew. While Icecap's initial lure about "brevet borrowing" was just a bit of fishing; he did raise some valid points:
FC/AT brevets are the only flying badges currently awarded without any pre-cursor aircrew specialist trg (or for that matter aircrew aptitude testing) - as such, this diminishes their worth in the eyes of many on both sides of the debate. Surely it would be beneficial for all potential FC/AT brevet candidates to undergo aptitude testing, followed by successful completion of the Aircrew Specialist Course / CASC etc before proceeding to the Sentry OCU.
The preponderance of the FC branch across ITW / OES has nothing to do with experience in NEC (E-3D definitely does not lead that area in Lincs let alone the UK) - but is, rather, a reflection of how Sentr-ist (geddit?) Waddo has been until recently - (it took 3 years to get the name of the stn mag changed from Sentry for Cr@st's sake!.....).
The bottom line is that FCs do not "borrow" their brevets, they earn them (after a fashion) - what they have been doing for the past decade and a half though, is "borrowing" the seats that they'll shortly have to return to their rightful owners....
Hopefully, this post will be assessed by those with the power for what it is intended to be - a contribution to the debate. For the first time ever however, I'm not sure whether it'll see the light of day. And that, my friends, would be a shame...........
Prune Pop is a really nice chap who doesn't close threads without good reason.
However, taking the pi$$ out of a group of people (crabs, WAFUs, FCs, whatever) is one thing, direct personal insults quite another!
However, taking the pi$$ out of a group of people (crabs, WAFUs, FCs, whatever) is one thing, direct personal insults quite another!
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I could, and so could many of the people I worked with. We were ex-techies. Just to put the record straight, aircrew have to learn technical stuff about ALL the systems, ground trades specialise. To pass ATPL exams was more in depth than my RAF Technical Training at Cosford.
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BEagle - direct personal insults? That implies insults aimed at persons (not groups) - I didn't see any. In my opinion, the Mods shut down the thread just as informed debate was taking place.
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As someone who left the military a long time ago I read quite a few of the threads with interest, It does seem that any criticism (take beagles point though about direct insults) does get some flak from the mods. Of course it may be just the threads I look at occasionaly but that is how it seems.
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AEW in the RAF did not spring into being fully formed with the introduction of the E-3. The Shacklebomberwacs may not have had much useful capability but FCs were part of their crews. Putting them onto the E-3 was therefore a natural progression - whether the proportion has remained static I don't know. So please, less of the "return to their rightful owners" stuff. By your logic the specialists in the R1, the army guys on ASTOR and the air despatchers on the C130 should also not be there.
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Well at least this is running so far.....
Spotter FC: Don't know about the Air Despatcher side of things and so can't comment. As far as R1 and ASTOR goes, NO ONE on those crews flies with a brevet without having successfully completed the NCAITC (R1) or the Aircrew Specialist Course and CASC (ASTOR). My point regarding award of the FC brevet therefore still stands. I should also re-iterate my stance on not advocating that FCs leave Sentry completely.
There you go, just a debate - nothing else......
Spotter FC: Don't know about the Air Despatcher side of things and so can't comment. As far as R1 and ASTOR goes, NO ONE on those crews flies with a brevet without having successfully completed the NCAITC (R1) or the Aircrew Specialist Course and CASC (ASTOR). My point regarding award of the FC brevet therefore still stands. I should also re-iterate my stance on not advocating that FCs leave Sentry completely.
There you go, just a debate - nothing else......
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I don't have any issue with FCs working their consoles in aircraft. Its a good idea. They become airborne FCs. They do a good job; probably better than any aircrew would do on the console. I worked with them over Iraq in 03. However, they do not, of course, become aircrew just because their workplace is in a flying aircraft. The fact that they do survival traing does not qualify them to be aircrew (oil/gas rig workers go in the dunker and practice sea survival). Airborne FCs should not wear any insignia on their uniform including the RAF Wing. I also include the persons in the back of the R1 and the air stewards in my belief. Having said that, I do not have a problem with airborne FCs and air stewards wearing pseudo-brevet name badges on their flying suits, so that people will recognise their role on the jet.
Its that simple, really.
Its that simple, really.
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So they fly but they don't count as aircrew because..........?
So that must mean that those 'old boys' of the Aircrew association should kick out those with S, W/O, WOP/AG, E, LM, AT, M, AE, B, QM, RO leaving it 'pure' for pilots and navs
er...... that sounds like a definition of aircrew to me!
So that must mean that those 'old boys' of the Aircrew association should kick out those with S, W/O, WOP/AG, E, LM, AT, M, AE, B, QM, RO leaving it 'pure' for pilots and navs
they do not, of course, become aircrew just because their workplace is in a flying aircraft
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I think we are talking about earning wings by doing a full, formal aircrew training course - not like the SERE at CW where specialists [padres, doctors, etc] do a saluting course and learn military speak.
I believe the back-enders on the R at Wadd DO do a formal course before being presented with their wings - it's not just a dinghy drill or two, and the AEOps come from several tours in Maritime...
I believe the back-enders on the R at Wadd DO do a formal course before being presented with their wings - it's not just a dinghy drill or two, and the AEOps come from several tours in Maritime...
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Maple,
To a degree I take your point, but what you keep forgetting, or maybe deliberately over-looking, is this.........
Those of us that are 'real' aircrew (for want of a better word) do not have too much of a problem with people joining our fraternity. Indeed, in the main we warmly welcome them.
What we (and especially me) object to, is young and arrogant ground FC JOs who join us and think that because they have been chosen to fly on the jet, they are something they are not.
They do NOT do a formal 'aircrew' selection course and, as has been rightly pointed out, they do NOT do a recognised RAF survival course (or they didn't when I was on E-3s)
In the main, they struggle to shake off the rank thing in the air, and I have seen on more than one occasion, a big hairy Master tell a JO FC just where to go in the air, and clarify that later on the ground!!
Now, you can argue that it is not their fault and that its part of their training et al, and that may well be so. But for the rest of us, we don't give a to$$, it's not our problem, its yours Sir! And, if you want to play aircrew, then you must start acting like aircrew. And that means in all aspects.
Now what has happened to a few FCs is that they have managed to persuade the hierarchy of their branch that the jet cannot function without them. Wrong! The jet will function perfectly well without them, and I would suggest that some of the fleets BEST controllers are both Navs and AEs(and a few FCs)
Thats not to say that all FCs are the same, and I would be the first to say that several of them are damned good. Unfortunately, the good ones are in the very very small minority, and the old tar brush unfortunately tends to paint them all.
In the main, they need to take leaf out of the ATs book. These guys have a totally different mentality when they join the fleet, and are a refreshing change from most FCs - especially JOs.
Back to bed now, and more medication!
Kind regards
TSM
To a degree I take your point, but what you keep forgetting, or maybe deliberately over-looking, is this.........
Those of us that are 'real' aircrew (for want of a better word) do not have too much of a problem with people joining our fraternity. Indeed, in the main we warmly welcome them.
What we (and especially me) object to, is young and arrogant ground FC JOs who join us and think that because they have been chosen to fly on the jet, they are something they are not.
They do NOT do a formal 'aircrew' selection course and, as has been rightly pointed out, they do NOT do a recognised RAF survival course (or they didn't when I was on E-3s)
In the main, they struggle to shake off the rank thing in the air, and I have seen on more than one occasion, a big hairy Master tell a JO FC just where to go in the air, and clarify that later on the ground!!
Now, you can argue that it is not their fault and that its part of their training et al, and that may well be so. But for the rest of us, we don't give a to$$, it's not our problem, its yours Sir! And, if you want to play aircrew, then you must start acting like aircrew. And that means in all aspects.
Now what has happened to a few FCs is that they have managed to persuade the hierarchy of their branch that the jet cannot function without them. Wrong! The jet will function perfectly well without them, and I would suggest that some of the fleets BEST controllers are both Navs and AEs(and a few FCs)
Thats not to say that all FCs are the same, and I would be the first to say that several of them are damned good. Unfortunately, the good ones are in the very very small minority, and the old tar brush unfortunately tends to paint them all.
In the main, they need to take leaf out of the ATs book. These guys have a totally different mentality when they join the fleet, and are a refreshing change from most FCs - especially JOs.
Back to bed now, and more medication!
Kind regards
TSM
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Ah.....got me there about arrogant FC JOs, but that's just down to youth - most of the Flt Lt FCs are quite nice! (Can’t believe I said that) Also probably true of some SAC turned Sgt controllers too (sweeping generalisation alert), again due to age and life experience IMO. There used to be an element of friction between Commissioned and NCO controllers, as well as SNCO FC and their non-FC equivalents but I think they/we are beginning to workout that we're on the same side!
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Swinging Monkey
Well said!!
But I still maintain that the service is responsible for their taking rank into the air. They are not trained to be aircrew and that isn't their fault!!
That said some certainly don't learn (don't want to?) how to behave in the air, again as you say that is a problem for them.
But they do an excellent and professional job none the less!!
Well said!!
But I still maintain that the service is responsible for their taking rank into the air. They are not trained to be aircrew and that isn't their fault!!
That said some certainly don't learn (don't want to?) how to behave in the air, again as you say that is a problem for them.
But they do an excellent and professional job none the less!!
This is fantastic. It has been great sat here on the sidelines, reading all the winged master race snobbery! IMHO it does not matter what branch you are, it is the best person for the job, regardless!
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FJJP and DPHarvey
Just for clarification:
I may not have expressed myself clearly on my last post. The R1 is crewed exclusively by brevet-holding aircrew in receipt of Flying Pay. All specialisations on the platform have completed aircrew selection and trg.
Just for clarification:
I may not have expressed myself clearly on my last post. The R1 is crewed exclusively by brevet-holding aircrew in receipt of Flying Pay. All specialisations on the platform have completed aircrew selection and trg.
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Widger,
If you had the remotest idea of who I was, then you would realise what a stupid statement that was, to call me a snob!!
I am the most 'un-snobbish' (is that a word?) person on this earth! Clearly you know nothing about what we are discussing here, and I would suggest you go back under the rock whence you came from, there's a good chap.
Gorilla, I couldn't agree more with you my dear chap. Most of these FCs are a product of what the Air Force has made them. All I would say is that
a) I believe it is their trade (and not so much the RAF) to blame for the way they have turned out, and.......
b) A proper 'aircrew' style selection, by 'aircrew' would avoid a lot of these problems that clearly exist.
If these guys and girls want to join the winged fraternity, then thats fine by me, but they must understand that we play by 'aircrew' rules, and not FC bunker rules.
Regards
TSM
If you had the remotest idea of who I was, then you would realise what a stupid statement that was, to call me a snob!!
I am the most 'un-snobbish' (is that a word?) person on this earth! Clearly you know nothing about what we are discussing here, and I would suggest you go back under the rock whence you came from, there's a good chap.
Gorilla, I couldn't agree more with you my dear chap. Most of these FCs are a product of what the Air Force has made them. All I would say is that
a) I believe it is their trade (and not so much the RAF) to blame for the way they have turned out, and.......
b) A proper 'aircrew' style selection, by 'aircrew' would avoid a lot of these problems that clearly exist.
If these guys and girls want to join the winged fraternity, then thats fine by me, but they must understand that we play by 'aircrew' rules, and not FC bunker rules.
Regards
TSM
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I'm an E-3 bloke (JO) and I'm a bit disappointed that the general consensus seems to be that we're sh*t at our jobs. Whenever I've been away on exercises, FJ lads have had nothing but good things to say to our faces, but then you come on here and start slagging.
I totally agree that we aren't all good at our job, and aren't all on the ball 100% of the time - but I would love to meet any pilot/nav etc who is. I've lost count of the number of bad calls/lack of ATO/ACO/SPINS awareness etc that I've come across in the past, and it's usually a cross section of different ac types on different days. I just put it down to the fact we're all human and have got a lot on our plates.
Please bear in mind that our training system is far from the best (we are taught by the slightly more experienced FC bloke, not by FJ mates who can tell us what they really want.) Our exposure to FJ mates is generally confined to big exercises or a 30 second phone call debrief consisting of "yeah, no problems mate." If you guys think we're sh*t, tell us to our faces when you get the chance - at the end of the day, if I do my job badly, you're the ones who could die, not me......
Also, the calls of "you're approaching the edge of your airspace" etc are almost entirely driven by the instructor or FA on your shoulder who hasn't controlled since 1967.
I totally agree that we aren't all good at our job, and aren't all on the ball 100% of the time - but I would love to meet any pilot/nav etc who is. I've lost count of the number of bad calls/lack of ATO/ACO/SPINS awareness etc that I've come across in the past, and it's usually a cross section of different ac types on different days. I just put it down to the fact we're all human and have got a lot on our plates.
Please bear in mind that our training system is far from the best (we are taught by the slightly more experienced FC bloke, not by FJ mates who can tell us what they really want.) Our exposure to FJ mates is generally confined to big exercises or a 30 second phone call debrief consisting of "yeah, no problems mate." If you guys think we're sh*t, tell us to our faces when you get the chance - at the end of the day, if I do my job badly, you're the ones who could die, not me......
Also, the calls of "you're approaching the edge of your airspace" etc are almost entirely driven by the instructor or FA on your shoulder who hasn't controlled since 1967.
Last edited by Random E-3 bloke; 4th Jul 2005 at 16:56.