Busting Out, help me run!
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Busting Out, help me run!
Ladies & Gentlemen,
When we PVR or NGR our FP drops a level. I think that stinks.
There are past aviators from the RAF that have contested this and won. If that is you or you know someone who did it, please let me know.
I've NGR'd and I'm fighting this as I disagree with it totally- especially as 'the book' says that FP 'forms part of earnings'.
If that is so, cutting FP because you are leaving is cutting our pay.
There are a few peoples (all branches) about to do the same, if you can help, you'll be helping many of us, not just me.
If the RAF can do it for 1, past or present, they can do it for all of us. After all, there are no individuals in the military!
Help if you can please.
Scale 21
When we PVR or NGR our FP drops a level. I think that stinks.
There are past aviators from the RAF that have contested this and won. If that is you or you know someone who did it, please let me know.
I've NGR'd and I'm fighting this as I disagree with it totally- especially as 'the book' says that FP 'forms part of earnings'.
If that is so, cutting FP because you are leaving is cutting our pay.
There are a few peoples (all branches) about to do the same, if you can help, you'll be helping many of us, not just me.
If the RAF can do it for 1, past or present, they can do it for all of us. After all, there are no individuals in the military!
Help if you can please.
Scale 21
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S21
Not sure you will win this one (bureaucracy at its best), however on the lighter side. Discharge-Find a nice little airline, nude up in the cockpit with a Santa scalf on, Glass of champagne in hand with a buxom hostee on your knee (nude optional), take a photo and send the image to the ministry of defence with a snappy quip attached to the e-mail.
"Lads wish you were here, never mind the Bollocks!!!", missing you (not!) SQNLDR Bloggs.
Not sure you will win this one (bureaucracy at its best), however on the lighter side. Discharge-Find a nice little airline, nude up in the cockpit with a Santa scalf on, Glass of champagne in hand with a buxom hostee on your knee (nude optional), take a photo and send the image to the ministry of defence with a snappy quip attached to the e-mail.
"Lads wish you were here, never mind the Bollocks!!!", missing you (not!) SQNLDR Bloggs.
All depends on timing.
A long PVR date may give time for MOD's admin to catch up but a 6-monther post xmas, taking in April tax year etc, can leave them with ONE day to go before this little inmate escapes without a pay reduction..................
A long PVR date may give time for MOD's admin to catch up but a 6-monther post xmas, taking in April tax year etc, can leave them with ONE day to go before this little inmate escapes without a pay reduction..................
I don't know what NGR is, but in the case of PVR applicants, maybe reducing their flying pay allows the beancounters to give more from the finite pot to those who have the loyalty and integrity to fulfill the term of service to which they signed up? In this day and age, with overstretch and an extraordinarily high f*ck factor I can find little to argue with if those who have the integrity to stay until their option are treated better than those rushing to desert the sinking ship.
From before you go to OASC you know what length of service is expected of you - if you can't take a joke then don't join.
From before you go to OASC you know what length of service is expected of you - if you can't take a joke then don't join.
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NGR = Notice of General Release. That bit that says we are entitled to leave early should we choose to (18 mth notice).
Ship may well be sinking- where is the best place to be; head above water with enough youth left to get a job, or a drowned (forgotten) relic who was too scared to go?
Please don't give me stick because I want to make a personnal choice, and disagree with this rule. No other employer in the UK (nay, Europe?) would cut your earnings for exercising our freedom of choice. The reason I joined the RAF was to protect this freedom of choice.
Please don't offend me anymore by replying if you have nothing constuctive for me and my colleagues.
Ship may well be sinking- where is the best place to be; head above water with enough youth left to get a job, or a drowned (forgotten) relic who was too scared to go?
Please don't give me stick because I want to make a personnal choice, and disagree with this rule. No other employer in the UK (nay, Europe?) would cut your earnings for exercising our freedom of choice. The reason I joined the RAF was to protect this freedom of choice.
Please don't offend me anymore by replying if you have nothing constuctive for me and my colleagues.
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Scale 21
No practical help to offer but I agree that the situation is unfair and I wish you well in your efforts.
Jackonicko
It has absolutely nothing to do with loyalty and integrity. It is to do with a legitimate "NOTICE" option in our terms of engagement.
In my case once I had completed 22 years to pension I signed on to age 47 then age 55 with this option as standard. I am currently 45 with no plans to leave but would feel completely comfortable taking the option if my circumstances change. That means I have now completed almost 28 years LOYAL service.
Suggest perhaps you research your facts before you make deeply insulting posts.
No practical help to offer but I agree that the situation is unfair and I wish you well in your efforts.
Jackonicko
It has absolutely nothing to do with loyalty and integrity. It is to do with a legitimate "NOTICE" option in our terms of engagement.
In my case once I had completed 22 years to pension I signed on to age 47 then age 55 with this option as standard. I am currently 45 with no plans to leave but would feel completely comfortable taking the option if my circumstances change. That means I have now completed almost 28 years LOYAL service.
Suggest perhaps you research your facts before you make deeply insulting posts.
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In my day FP was an ADDITIONAL emolument for those who actually flew aircraft. One had to do so many hours etc. to retain rights to FP. Now if you are leaving the service and are no longer flying why should FP continue to be paid? Not a bait, just a straight question!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Jackinoko:
"allows the beancounters to give more from the finite pot to those who have the loyalty and integrity to fulfill the term of service to which they signed up?"
B*ll*cks.
It may have been true a few years ago when service and defence was everything. Now even the Gp Capt at OASC says to look after yourself as no one else will.
There are too many 37.5 hours per week people out there (and less) than blue suits. The service ethos is dying fast if not already dead. Only when it is all uniforms is there a chance of true espirit de corps.
"allows the beancounters to give more from the finite pot to those who have the loyalty and integrity to fulfill the term of service to which they signed up?"
B*ll*cks.
It may have been true a few years ago when service and defence was everything. Now even the Gp Capt at OASC says to look after yourself as no one else will.
There are too many 37.5 hours per week people out there (and less) than blue suits. The service ethos is dying fast if not already dead. Only when it is all uniforms is there a chance of true espirit de corps.
No offence meant. As I said, I didn't know what NGR meant.
From what you say it seems to differ from PVR in that it's a legitimate 'planned for' 'option' whereas PVR could be seen as a deliberate and self interested (if agreed) breach of contract, especially if exercised before the option point agreed to at the start of one's commissioned career. It would seem reasonable that the PVR applicant should be removed from flying duties (if that were convenient to the service) and thereby to lose entitlement to flying pay, whereas the NGR applicant should perhaps be treated with more consideration, if they are merely exercising what is, in effect, a predictable and previously agreed option to leave. If that is an accurate description of NGR, then removing flying pay does seem harsh.
I appreciate that loyalty has to be a two-way process, and that in recent years it has not been. The point remains, however, that the pot is decidedly finite, and to reward those who (for entirely selfish reasons) have decided to leave before the point originally agreed to (eg PVRs, not NGRs), at the expense of those who stay, seems unfair, and a waste of taxpayers' money.
I would stress that my own very limited knowledge of the PVR process comes primarily from another era, and that when individuals are encouraged to leave early by the service, then the loyalty point naturally does not apply.
The real answer, of course, would be to fund the services properly, to treat servicemen decently, and if money is that tight then perhaps to award flying pay only to those in legitimate flying posts, or in posts where recent flying currency is deemed to be required, and not to those who have voluntarily left flying posts, nor to senior officers whose entitlement to flying pay may be more shaky.
From what you say it seems to differ from PVR in that it's a legitimate 'planned for' 'option' whereas PVR could be seen as a deliberate and self interested (if agreed) breach of contract, especially if exercised before the option point agreed to at the start of one's commissioned career. It would seem reasonable that the PVR applicant should be removed from flying duties (if that were convenient to the service) and thereby to lose entitlement to flying pay, whereas the NGR applicant should perhaps be treated with more consideration, if they are merely exercising what is, in effect, a predictable and previously agreed option to leave. If that is an accurate description of NGR, then removing flying pay does seem harsh.
I appreciate that loyalty has to be a two-way process, and that in recent years it has not been. The point remains, however, that the pot is decidedly finite, and to reward those who (for entirely selfish reasons) have decided to leave before the point originally agreed to (eg PVRs, not NGRs), at the expense of those who stay, seems unfair, and a waste of taxpayers' money.
I would stress that my own very limited knowledge of the PVR process comes primarily from another era, and that when individuals are encouraged to leave early by the service, then the loyalty point naturally does not apply.
The real answer, of course, would be to fund the services properly, to treat servicemen decently, and if money is that tight then perhaps to award flying pay only to those in legitimate flying posts, or in posts where recent flying currency is deemed to be required, and not to those who have voluntarily left flying posts, nor to senior officers whose entitlement to flying pay may be more shaky.
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S21
Have heard stories reference the Airborne Techs on the Mushroom Farm. Some of those guys have PVR'd in the past and when told that their FP would halve, informed PSF to keep the other half as well and promptly withdrew themselves from flying duties. Apparently, they could do this, as for those guys, flying duties was and still is on a volunteer basis. They just withdrew their services.
As I understand it, due to the lack of (full) crews being available for ops if this was to happen, I think PSF relented and paid them till the end.
Have heard stories reference the Airborne Techs on the Mushroom Farm. Some of those guys have PVR'd in the past and when told that their FP would halve, informed PSF to keep the other half as well and promptly withdrew themselves from flying duties. Apparently, they could do this, as for those guys, flying duties was and still is on a volunteer basis. They just withdrew their services.
As I understand it, due to the lack of (full) crews being available for ops if this was to happen, I think PSF relented and paid them till the end.
Working Hard
Part of the point is that the subject officer does not stop flying because he has PVR'd. His primary role is still the same so why should his FP be abated?
Now, if the officer decided to become a burden upon his colleagues and shirk his fair share then, yes, a reduction in pay would be justified.
Part of the point is that the subject officer does not stop flying because he has PVR'd. His primary role is still the same so why should his FP be abated?
Now, if the officer decided to become a burden upon his colleagues and shirk his fair share then, yes, a reduction in pay would be justified.
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I think you might have more luck with this one than the 'flying pay and pensions' debate.
Try the Employment Rights Act 1996:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/1996018.htm
Maybe consider suing for constructive dismissal?
If the employer breaches the contract the employee has various options:
Where the imposed change involves a significant change to the contract, eg a reduction in pay, an employer may be acting in fundamental breach of the contract. In these circumstances the employee could choose to resign and claim constructive dismissal:
This is where the employer's conduct can be regarded as a substantial breach of the employment contract, indicating that he or she intends no longer to be bound by the contract. In these circumstances the employee is entitled to terminate their employment without giving notice. In any tribunal claim of constructive dismissal the employee must show that the employer's action amounted to a fundamental breach of contract.
Good Luck!
Try the Employment Rights Act 1996:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/1996018.htm
Maybe consider suing for constructive dismissal?
If the employer breaches the contract the employee has various options:
Where the imposed change involves a significant change to the contract, eg a reduction in pay, an employer may be acting in fundamental breach of the contract. In these circumstances the employee could choose to resign and claim constructive dismissal:
This is where the employer's conduct can be regarded as a substantial breach of the employment contract, indicating that he or she intends no longer to be bound by the contract. In these circumstances the employee is entitled to terminate their employment without giving notice. In any tribunal claim of constructive dismissal the employee must show that the employer's action amounted to a fundamental breach of contract.
Good Luck!
Last edited by D-IFF_ident; 29th Jun 2005 at 16:48.
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OK, playing the Devil's advocate here. We have been told many times in debates about FP that it is additional pay and is used as a method to enhance recruitment and retention of aircrew. Now, for whatever reason, it hasn't worked when an individual NGR/PVRs. It could be argued that you earn it by commitment, rather than flying.
I didn't relish writing that, but I do believe that it reflects policy
Ducks for cover......
I didn't relish writing that, but I do believe that it reflects policy
Ducks for cover......
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Jacko: Please tell me you are not the prat that you have come across as. Only those that stay are loyal and have integrity??????? It is exactly this attitude which will make sure that I will PVR as soon as I am ready.
Rest assured that when that day comes, and I am sitting there in the cruise, on my way to New York or Waikiki, and trying to figure out just how to spend my money with only 15 days off per month, I will spare a thought for those of you who have integrity, and are blindly loyal.
In the mean time, I will answer the phone every time it rings to screw up another weekend or cancel my leave, and I'll do my job to the best of my ability without fail, with or without the required support or equipment to do the job properly. Unfortunately, those of you who believe the way you appear to believe, are the reason that those of us who "lack integrity and loyalty", leave.
Ciao
Rest assured that when that day comes, and I am sitting there in the cruise, on my way to New York or Waikiki, and trying to figure out just how to spend my money with only 15 days off per month, I will spare a thought for those of you who have integrity, and are blindly loyal.
In the mean time, I will answer the phone every time it rings to screw up another weekend or cancel my leave, and I'll do my job to the best of my ability without fail, with or without the required support or equipment to do the job properly. Unfortunately, those of you who believe the way you appear to believe, are the reason that those of us who "lack integrity and loyalty", leave.
Ciao
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Loads of good stuff there, thanks to all. D-IFF, will check it out! Thinking along lines of 'unlawful deduction from wages' too...
Undersecretary for defence told me I gotta do the same as the next middle rate knocker- but for less pay. AP3392 says that FP 'forms part of earnings of aircrew'. If this notice FP cut nonsense isn't cutting your pay, what is?
Middle & higher rate are earned through time served. I haven't completed any less service or know less because I want to leave- no other employer cuts pay on notice, why should ours?
I fulfilled my childhood ambition by suceeding as RAF aircrew; my priorities have changed so I've made a decision to leave, why should I be penalised by having my pay cut?
Keep replying folks, ask your mates and find out for us if anyone else has beaten the pen pushers at city hall!!
Undersecretary for defence told me I gotta do the same as the next middle rate knocker- but for less pay. AP3392 says that FP 'forms part of earnings of aircrew'. If this notice FP cut nonsense isn't cutting your pay, what is?
Middle & higher rate are earned through time served. I haven't completed any less service or know less because I want to leave- no other employer cuts pay on notice, why should ours?
I fulfilled my childhood ambition by suceeding as RAF aircrew; my priorities have changed so I've made a decision to leave, why should I be penalised by having my pay cut?
Keep replying folks, ask your mates and find out for us if anyone else has beaten the pen pushers at city hall!!
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Jackonicko
We show loyalty and integrity by doing our job to the best of our abilities until the day we leave. We work hard, support our mates and do our share of the sh** jobs.
A PVR is a contractual giving of notice. Why is this disloyal?
The RAF is showing far more than disoyalty by making compulsory redundancies at present.
The military has been made into a job like any other. Saying that you signed up for 16 years at the ripe old age of 17, so you should have to lump it is a bit out of touch these days, I believe.
We are not the same as when we joined, the RAF is not the same as when we joined, and the allowances, respect and way of life are definately not the same as when we joined.
We show loyalty and integrity by doing our job to the best of our abilities until the day we leave. We work hard, support our mates and do our share of the sh** jobs.
A PVR is a contractual giving of notice. Why is this disloyal?
The RAF is showing far more than disoyalty by making compulsory redundancies at present.
The military has been made into a job like any other. Saying that you signed up for 16 years at the ripe old age of 17, so you should have to lump it is a bit out of touch these days, I believe.
We are not the same as when we joined, the RAF is not the same as when we joined, and the allowances, respect and way of life are definately not the same as when we joined.
".......the RAF is not the same as when we joined, and the allowances, respect and way of life are definitely not the same as when we joined."
Precisely. Given my time again, I would gladly join the RAF I joined in 1968 - but wild horses wouldn't drag me to join the pale imitation of its former self which is the RAF of today.
Not just a bleat from an old fart; obviously there has to be change and for the first 32 years of my service such changes were generally acceptable. But then things became simply intolerable; everything we'd held dear in virtually all areas of the Service was hacked around and meddled with by incompetent power wielding idiots (most of whom have now left as Gp Capts or Air Cdres on redundancy with nice little earners) and sqn lifestyle plummeted further and further downwards.
Today's RAF is about 1/3 the size it was when I joined and something like 40 aerodromes where we flew then are no longer available. And that's just in the UK. When I joined, C-130 was a new toy, as was Nimrod. Not to mention Harrier, Jaguar and Phantom. Whereas today most of the large aircraft fleet is well past its sell-by date but in ever increasing demand in OOA Ops. The only bright star is TypHoon and it's going to be nearly another decade before FSTA, A400M and MRA4 are established.
In 1968 we were strong in all areas; even our transport aircraft were on a par with those used by the airlines. But then the Brittanias and Belfasts were thrown away.....and nowadays our AT/AAR aircraft are years out of date and desperately inferior to anything operated by the airlines. So is it any wonder that people are leaving for pastures new to fly aircraft which are only 5 years old instead of nearly 40?
Compare a recruiting glossy from 1965 with one from 2005 and you'll see what I mean......
Precisely. Given my time again, I would gladly join the RAF I joined in 1968 - but wild horses wouldn't drag me to join the pale imitation of its former self which is the RAF of today.
Not just a bleat from an old fart; obviously there has to be change and for the first 32 years of my service such changes were generally acceptable. But then things became simply intolerable; everything we'd held dear in virtually all areas of the Service was hacked around and meddled with by incompetent power wielding idiots (most of whom have now left as Gp Capts or Air Cdres on redundancy with nice little earners) and sqn lifestyle plummeted further and further downwards.
Today's RAF is about 1/3 the size it was when I joined and something like 40 aerodromes where we flew then are no longer available. And that's just in the UK. When I joined, C-130 was a new toy, as was Nimrod. Not to mention Harrier, Jaguar and Phantom. Whereas today most of the large aircraft fleet is well past its sell-by date but in ever increasing demand in OOA Ops. The only bright star is TypHoon and it's going to be nearly another decade before FSTA, A400M and MRA4 are established.
In 1968 we were strong in all areas; even our transport aircraft were on a par with those used by the airlines. But then the Brittanias and Belfasts were thrown away.....and nowadays our AT/AAR aircraft are years out of date and desperately inferior to anything operated by the airlines. So is it any wonder that people are leaving for pastures new to fly aircraft which are only 5 years old instead of nearly 40?
Compare a recruiting glossy from 1965 with one from 2005 and you'll see what I mean......
