Busting Out, help me run!
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S21
If the ship is sinking and mate it is, staying put or hoping it gets better is as useful as re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
Good for you for exploring your options.
The big problem for middle level folks today is not $$$$$, or conditions of service (although we are already bak to the bone) its lack of leadership.
As the saying goes, the COMD of yesterday put his arse on the line for his boys, the COMD of today puts his boys on the line for his arse.
Didn't see much that inspired me towards the latter part of my career and hence took the leap of faith. Happy days so far!!!!
GIS
If the ship is sinking and mate it is, staying put or hoping it gets better is as useful as re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
Good for you for exploring your options.
The big problem for middle level folks today is not $$$$$, or conditions of service (although we are already bak to the bone) its lack of leadership.
As the saying goes, the COMD of yesterday put his arse on the line for his boys, the COMD of today puts his boys on the line for his arse.
Didn't see much that inspired me towards the latter part of my career and hence took the leap of faith. Happy days so far!!!!
GIS
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Sorry to whinge about those who are whinging about those whom they perceive as whinging, but....
How about constructive answers to the question asked, rather than opinions about who has the biggest knob? Mine's tiny, I can tell you, but at least I tried to look-up an answer for a fellow airman.
How about constructive answers to the question asked, rather than opinions about who has the biggest knob? Mine's tiny, I can tell you, but at least I tried to look-up an answer for a fellow airman.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
One advantage of old fart's is that we can see what's round the corner as we round the block a second time. "15 days leave a month"
40 years ago we had a brilliant leave allowance - 42 days and public holidays with travelling time depending on train journey times. Airmen had slightly less, 30 days I think.
Many civilain companies revelled in 2 weeks holidays - 10 days!
Over time the length of civilian holidays has increased but service leave is stuck at 6 weeks (30 working days) plus PH for everyone.
Then a number of years ago a bleat was made to the AFPRB about leave. Their response was that leave was a service issue under the control of the services. If they wanted to allow more then they could.
Some years later, right in the middle of GW I UK based AF were given a 3 week Christmas stand-down for winnng the cold war.
Public holidays crept with midday standowns and return to duty. By the back door our leaves crept up.
Then, a year or so back, at gp capt admin level, it was alleged that these extra half-days were fraud and to be stopped forthwith.
Now it would be nice to be given an official 5 days extra leave but of course that would reduce the effective strength of the AF on duty by 2%. Already the reduced numbers cannot man all the posts - an extra 2% on leave would merely point up the criticallity of manning already.
To return to the PVR case, how would the civilian world react if notice periods were extended to month and years and not days!
40 years ago we had a brilliant leave allowance - 42 days and public holidays with travelling time depending on train journey times. Airmen had slightly less, 30 days I think.
Many civilain companies revelled in 2 weeks holidays - 10 days!
Over time the length of civilian holidays has increased but service leave is stuck at 6 weeks (30 working days) plus PH for everyone.
Then a number of years ago a bleat was made to the AFPRB about leave. Their response was that leave was a service issue under the control of the services. If they wanted to allow more then they could.
Some years later, right in the middle of GW I UK based AF were given a 3 week Christmas stand-down for winnng the cold war.
Public holidays crept with midday standowns and return to duty. By the back door our leaves crept up.
Then, a year or so back, at gp capt admin level, it was alleged that these extra half-days were fraud and to be stopped forthwith.
Now it would be nice to be given an official 5 days extra leave but of course that would reduce the effective strength of the AF on duty by 2%. Already the reduced numbers cannot man all the posts - an extra 2% on leave would merely point up the criticallity of manning already.
To return to the PVR case, how would the civilian world react if notice periods were extended to month and years and not days!
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Nothing is new. The timescale and names have been changed. The conditions are the same - ASOT aircraft do not take-off in daylight, the tasking was more than crews and aircraft available. 6 days of up to 19hrs crew duty before a day off. The self serving senior staff have changed their names. Can remember a finger pointing session with Wg Cdr where I told him there were people who had up to 8 days a month off. He didn't believe me. Mentioned the word "civilians" and he said, "They are different!"
My children understood I was the stranger who appeared so often, again to disappear within a couple of days. Even had a 1/2 hour call-out for a 6 day route 'cos one member of a crew would have got back too late to attend a Command Fishing meeting.
I look at your complaints, my heart goes out to you, but I say, "What's new!" I didn't PVR (tried to, another story) but no way was I going to extend.
My children understood I was the stranger who appeared so often, again to disappear within a couple of days. Even had a 1/2 hour call-out for a 6 day route 'cos one member of a crew would have got back too late to attend a Command Fishing meeting.
I look at your complaints, my heart goes out to you, but I say, "What's new!" I didn't PVR (tried to, another story) but no way was I going to extend.
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Jacko,
I hate to disagree with you old man, but I really must on this point of loyalty, and fulfilling your terms of service.
I would humbly suggest that, if the RAF didn't keep changing its own terms of service, there would still be a great many of us still in.
When I joined, I had 4 warrants and God knows what else Blah!! You would have been the same, so why do you feel it unfair when an individual decides to give notice and leave, especially as his terms of service will have been seriously degraded??
Come on Jacko, you are well respected on this forum, but suggesting that someone is disloyal because he gives notice to leave is a little unfair I would suggest
Kind regards
TSM
I hate to disagree with you old man, but I really must on this point of loyalty, and fulfilling your terms of service.
I would humbly suggest that, if the RAF didn't keep changing its own terms of service, there would still be a great many of us still in.
When I joined, I had 4 warrants and God knows what else Blah!! You would have been the same, so why do you feel it unfair when an individual decides to give notice and leave, especially as his terms of service will have been seriously degraded??
Come on Jacko, you are well respected on this forum, but suggesting that someone is disloyal because he gives notice to leave is a little unfair I would suggest
Kind regards
TSM
PT Gamekeeper correctly surmised that I am an old git, and that I am out of touch. Had I joined, my own 38/16 point would have passed before the Millenium. I could have fitted two short service commissions in back-to-back. Few of my immediate contemporaries are still in.
I have huge sympathy with the thought that:
"Saying that you signed up for 16 years at the ripe old age of 17, so you should have to lump it is a bit out of touch these days, I believe."
In my day people signed up for 16 with an option to leave after 12 (the 12 with an option after eight was almost unknown for aircrew). It was stressed that this was a firm commitment on your part, and that it was part of the price you paid for 'the best job in the world' and £2m worth of flying training. It was possible to PVR if you'd amortised your training costs, but it was widely regarded as being infra dig to PVR - since 12 years service seemed to be a reasonable expectation of 'return of service' after all the training. Anecdotally it seemed that most of those who PVRd were immediately taken off flying (and assigned to ****ty jobs) and this was widely viewed as being fair enough. There was a widely held (if largely unspoken) view that those who PVRd did so because they couldn't hack it, didn't fit in, or were self interested chancers obsessed with making more money by flying for the airlines, and that they were leaving their mates in the lurch. This was probably almost as unfair then as it would be today. But I don't think depriving such folk of some of their FP would have raised many eyebrows back then, and that's when my outdated attitudes were formed.
But perhaps the RAF then was more entitled to call upon people's loyalty, since it was more loyal to its own people. I take my honourable Swinging chum's comments to heart on this issue, and will henceforth shut my cakehole on this!
I apologise to anyone I've offended. I'm an ageing civvy journo and I can see that I am out of touch on this one.
I have huge sympathy with the thought that:
"Saying that you signed up for 16 years at the ripe old age of 17, so you should have to lump it is a bit out of touch these days, I believe."
In my day people signed up for 16 with an option to leave after 12 (the 12 with an option after eight was almost unknown for aircrew). It was stressed that this was a firm commitment on your part, and that it was part of the price you paid for 'the best job in the world' and £2m worth of flying training. It was possible to PVR if you'd amortised your training costs, but it was widely regarded as being infra dig to PVR - since 12 years service seemed to be a reasonable expectation of 'return of service' after all the training. Anecdotally it seemed that most of those who PVRd were immediately taken off flying (and assigned to ****ty jobs) and this was widely viewed as being fair enough. There was a widely held (if largely unspoken) view that those who PVRd did so because they couldn't hack it, didn't fit in, or were self interested chancers obsessed with making more money by flying for the airlines, and that they were leaving their mates in the lurch. This was probably almost as unfair then as it would be today. But I don't think depriving such folk of some of their FP would have raised many eyebrows back then, and that's when my outdated attitudes were formed.
But perhaps the RAF then was more entitled to call upon people's loyalty, since it was more loyal to its own people. I take my honourable Swinging chum's comments to heart on this issue, and will henceforth shut my cakehole on this!
I apologise to anyone I've offended. I'm an ageing civvy journo and I can see that I am out of touch on this one.
Well, that's probably saved you from having a large garden gnome inserted where the sun doesn't shine, Jacko....
I PVR'd after 31 years; the sticks had outweighed the carrots just once too often.
I PVR'd after 31 years; the sticks had outweighed the carrots just once too often.
If you PVR AFTER completing 12 years (let alone after passing your 38/16) I don't think anyone could ever have criticised. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Jacko,
no offence taken old boy, and I wouldn't say your out of touch either.
Like BEagle, I PVRd after 32 years for pretty much the same reasons. My biggest gripe however was that my Stn Cdr and Sqn cdr were no longer in charge and running my sqn when it came to deciding who went to war. No, it was a decision made by the Blunties, Rocks, PTIs and et al and them deciding who was most current in the 'Niff-Naff Stats' department. Sadly, neither of my 2 bosses were prepared to stand up to them and tell them to 'sod off and get a life'
Ah, how sad, but thats another story.
Kind regards to all
TSM
no offence taken old boy, and I wouldn't say your out of touch either.
Like BEagle, I PVRd after 32 years for pretty much the same reasons. My biggest gripe however was that my Stn Cdr and Sqn cdr were no longer in charge and running my sqn when it came to deciding who went to war. No, it was a decision made by the Blunties, Rocks, PTIs and et al and them deciding who was most current in the 'Niff-Naff Stats' department. Sadly, neither of my 2 bosses were prepared to stand up to them and tell them to 'sod off and get a life'
Ah, how sad, but thats another story.
Kind regards to all
TSM
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The RAF has very kindly decided to cut all our pay out here by one band, despite the bill being picked up by the host nation and not the RAF, and difficulties in finding volunteers to come here. I think one of the "conditions of service" is that the "conditions of service" are allowed to be changed at any time!
BEagle,
I, too, joined in 1968 - although my first three years "in unifom" were as an APO on a UAS.
We certainly had a lot of airfields at home and abroad and, as you point out, we had a lot of up-to-date kit, which was operated and supported by people in blue suits, not retired old farts and civilians.
I served for over 27 years before I just had to quit. The best decision I ever made was to join the RAF and my second best decision was to leave.
Sure, there were always bu**eration factors, but I seem to remember that people genarally took it all in good spirit because loyalty was then a two-way street.
I feel genuinely sorry for some of the guys posting on this thread today. While all I ever knew in my time in the Service was cutbacks and financial squeezes, it is clear that it has now been cut to a level way below the sensible. Worse still, it seems that the RAF is being run by a bunch of self-seeking sycophants who are incapable of standing up to the utter bo**ocks that emerges from the MoD and the Treasury. "Testicularly challenged" is, I believe, a phrase that you so aptly used in the past.
The terminal rot started to set in with the "New Management Strategy" about 1990. We replaced Commanders with Executives and Directors. Station Commanders became Budget Holders and Commands became Agencies. Leadership was replaced by management and, for pities sake, "investing in people" appeared on the scene! While all this nonsense was being generated (and being enthusiastically embraced by their Airships) the size, shape, equipment, infrastructure and morale of the RAF went into an irreversible decline.
And what about reducing the income of people who have decided to leave after loyal service? Well this provides a graphic illustration of the miserable and misguided outlook of the current "management". In relation to the overall Defence budget how much does it save? A drop in the ocean. What does it achieve? It simply serves to further alienate people who have (in all probability reluctantly) decided to pursue a change of career.
I, too, joined in 1968 - although my first three years "in unifom" were as an APO on a UAS.
We certainly had a lot of airfields at home and abroad and, as you point out, we had a lot of up-to-date kit, which was operated and supported by people in blue suits, not retired old farts and civilians.
I served for over 27 years before I just had to quit. The best decision I ever made was to join the RAF and my second best decision was to leave.
Sure, there were always bu**eration factors, but I seem to remember that people genarally took it all in good spirit because loyalty was then a two-way street.
I feel genuinely sorry for some of the guys posting on this thread today. While all I ever knew in my time in the Service was cutbacks and financial squeezes, it is clear that it has now been cut to a level way below the sensible. Worse still, it seems that the RAF is being run by a bunch of self-seeking sycophants who are incapable of standing up to the utter bo**ocks that emerges from the MoD and the Treasury. "Testicularly challenged" is, I believe, a phrase that you so aptly used in the past.
The terminal rot started to set in with the "New Management Strategy" about 1990. We replaced Commanders with Executives and Directors. Station Commanders became Budget Holders and Commands became Agencies. Leadership was replaced by management and, for pities sake, "investing in people" appeared on the scene! While all this nonsense was being generated (and being enthusiastically embraced by their Airships) the size, shape, equipment, infrastructure and morale of the RAF went into an irreversible decline.
And what about reducing the income of people who have decided to leave after loyal service? Well this provides a graphic illustration of the miserable and misguided outlook of the current "management". In relation to the overall Defence budget how much does it save? A drop in the ocean. What does it achieve? It simply serves to further alienate people who have (in all probability reluctantly) decided to pursue a change of career.
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Crikey! More than what I hoped for and an amazing response! Totally agree about the lack of carrots now...
Many of my pilot colleagues are starting to squint toward the horizon searching for another carrot. The latest is a promise of CFS Tucano posts, to be spoofed at the last signature on your clearing chit to end up UASing or JEFTing @ RAFC. Not promised or expected, except when the execs say 'oh yeah, they've done THAT before...'
Sorry for banging on, but my original question was to get names of like minded persons who fought this thing and won. Anybody out there got any suggestions or memories please?
Ali Baber- my missus spotted you were in Oman before she read your location. Reckons the Current Bun might wanna hear about that- speaking of which, would that be considered treacherous to expose this abhorrent, spiteful and mean rule (one of many?) to the press...
...sorry, that spanner was mine!!!
Many of my pilot colleagues are starting to squint toward the horizon searching for another carrot. The latest is a promise of CFS Tucano posts, to be spoofed at the last signature on your clearing chit to end up UASing or JEFTing @ RAFC. Not promised or expected, except when the execs say 'oh yeah, they've done THAT before...'
Sorry for banging on, but my original question was to get names of like minded persons who fought this thing and won. Anybody out there got any suggestions or memories please?
Ali Baber- my missus spotted you were in Oman before she read your location. Reckons the Current Bun might wanna hear about that- speaking of which, would that be considered treacherous to expose this abhorrent, spiteful and mean rule (one of many?) to the press...
...sorry, that spanner was mine!!!
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S21
Good on you mate !!!
I am currently in the same position and trying to track down a QR that relates to pre / post 1989 service regarding FP. Also, have you considered trying to pin your DO @ PMA down as to exactly how much notice you have to give ?
The whole manning plot is usually running on a knife edge, so you could try it, but also consider that the resettlement process is usually planned for an 18-24 mth period, so whatever you do:
a. Good luck
b. Plan and plan again
I am going to visit P2 next week on this subject, I will let you know if I get anywhere.
Jacko,
Usually I am impressed with your posts....
Good on you mate !!!
I am currently in the same position and trying to track down a QR that relates to pre / post 1989 service regarding FP. Also, have you considered trying to pin your DO @ PMA down as to exactly how much notice you have to give ?
The whole manning plot is usually running on a knife edge, so you could try it, but also consider that the resettlement process is usually planned for an 18-24 mth period, so whatever you do:
a. Good luck
b. Plan and plan again
I am going to visit P2 next week on this subject, I will let you know if I get anywhere.
Jacko,
Usually I am impressed with your posts....
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c130jbloke...
try AP3392 leaflet 1904.
'Welsh' or 'colour coded Adj' will know where to find it
That's where I got mine from...
Scale 21 (cup of tea with that..?)
try AP3392 leaflet 1904.
'Welsh' or 'colour coded Adj' will know where to find it
That's where I got mine from...
Scale 21 (cup of tea with that..?)
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Totally agree about the lack of carrots now...
Oh, I find that there are plenty of carrots on sticks around.
Except that now, they tend to shove the carrot up your ar$e, and hit you over the head with the stick.
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Scale 21
I wouldn't hold out any hopes for a Tucano slot over the next couple of years.
I won't put numbers to it, but with the demise of the jag fleet, there's little call for fast-jet mates at the moment. Therefore no call for instructors to train them.
Obviously in 2009 there'll be a huge panic followed by large ramp-up of the training system. Again.
Always remember that the Airships would never vote for a reduction in their train-sets. Nor would the Admirals or the Generals. It's down to the politicians.
Ultimately, the politicians order the defence cuts, then the inter-service rat-fighting commences. Last standing wins.
What did it for me was when AOC STC (Support Command) started calling himself 'Chief Executive of the Training Group Agency'.
This was in the mid-90s. How we all laughed.
I then took it upon myself to be a formation 'manager', with no.s 2,3, and 4 being 'formation outcome executives'. It was all about 'Putting People First'.
Debriefs were a classic. Customer expectations (sudden death) not being met. Outsourcing facilitation compromise (ATC out to lunch), Dealing with issues (Diversion cos we'd f*cked it and ran out of petrol). All this and much, much more.
Happy Days
I wouldn't hold out any hopes for a Tucano slot over the next couple of years.
I won't put numbers to it, but with the demise of the jag fleet, there's little call for fast-jet mates at the moment. Therefore no call for instructors to train them.
Obviously in 2009 there'll be a huge panic followed by large ramp-up of the training system. Again.
Always remember that the Airships would never vote for a reduction in their train-sets. Nor would the Admirals or the Generals. It's down to the politicians.
Ultimately, the politicians order the defence cuts, then the inter-service rat-fighting commences. Last standing wins.
What did it for me was when AOC STC (Support Command) started calling himself 'Chief Executive of the Training Group Agency'.
This was in the mid-90s. How we all laughed.
I then took it upon myself to be a formation 'manager', with no.s 2,3, and 4 being 'formation outcome executives'. It was all about 'Putting People First'.
Debriefs were a classic. Customer expectations (sudden death) not being met. Outsourcing facilitation compromise (ATC out to lunch), Dealing with issues (Diversion cos we'd f*cked it and ran out of petrol). All this and much, much more.
Happy Days
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Having met my MP at the weekend, he wasn't confident as to my plight, saying that if others had fought and won, it's their names we need to have a case...
On another note, me and my missus highlighted how moral is low, people are reaching BNE (bollocks never exceed!) and are starting to, or already have, walked. He said 'that's what the government wants so it doesn't have to make any more cuts to defence'.
He's on the opposition, but being in the HofP, he no doubt sees and hears what is going on. You heard it hear first (maybe), the government wants you to leave...
However, I shall still try to chase this issue. If anyone can help with people, places and times, please send them on.
On another note, me and my missus highlighted how moral is low, people are reaching BNE (bollocks never exceed!) and are starting to, or already have, walked. He said 'that's what the government wants so it doesn't have to make any more cuts to defence'.
He's on the opposition, but being in the HofP, he no doubt sees and hears what is going on. You heard it hear first (maybe), the government wants you to leave...
However, I shall still try to chase this issue. If anyone can help with people, places and times, please send them on.
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Little Dudes
It all is determined by the terms of service - not contract you signed up to. For scumbags it all goes back to pre 89 terms of service, for the bluebloods it is the same not sure what the cut off date is though?
I got mine back after SAC Fwit was pointed out the errors of his ways, it took 1 week for the flying pay to be cut and 3 months to be returned, funny that
. If you have problems see your Chief Clerk, not for info, but for access to the paperwork as he was just the SAC's paternal influence
.
Good luck with all your frustration and getting your Mp out of the trough.
Jacko I rate your comments about your length of service as a Hack right up there with the civil serpants who reckon they hold the equivalent rank of whatever
- they never seem to say SAC
Charlie sends
It all is determined by the terms of service - not contract you signed up to. For scumbags it all goes back to pre 89 terms of service, for the bluebloods it is the same not sure what the cut off date is though?
I got mine back after SAC Fwit was pointed out the errors of his ways, it took 1 week for the flying pay to be cut and 3 months to be returned, funny that
. If you have problems see your Chief Clerk, not for info, but for access to the paperwork as he was just the SAC's paternal influence .Good luck with all your frustration and getting your Mp out of the trough.
Jacko I rate your comments about your length of service as a Hack right up there with the civil serpants who reckon they hold the equivalent rank of whatever
- they never seem to say SAC Charlie sends
