9/11 Not as it seems??
I guess souvenir tee-shirts are a novelty around the world. Why not bring back keep sakes of one of Man's greatest achievements? After all...they loaded up with boxes of rocks and dust samples. Maybe it was a CofG matter....needed to keep the trim as near possible to that they started with.
SilsoeSid
- Ops, grammer, what I meant was that they did not double up on suits and helmets, each man had 1X spacesuit and 1X helmet, and those items went to the Moon and back.
Suits and Apollo 13 - there was no pressure loss, so why put suits on?
Fly CM in gloves..err yes, the whole spacecraft was designed to be operated depressurised.
Suits on in three minutes from cold ....doubt it, but you might have more than that? Who knows why you might have lost the pressure or what the leak rate is...so carry the suits, and if that means bringing them back from the Moon, so be it.....
The leaked picture...ah Irwin, Young and Mattingley (he of Apollo 13 German measles fame),...............................
- Ops, grammer, what I meant was that they did not double up on suits and helmets, each man had 1X spacesuit and 1X helmet, and those items went to the Moon and back.
Suits and Apollo 13 - there was no pressure loss, so why put suits on?
Fly CM in gloves..err yes, the whole spacecraft was designed to be operated depressurised.
Suits on in three minutes from cold ....doubt it, but you might have more than that? Who knows why you might have lost the pressure or what the leak rate is...so carry the suits, and if that means bringing them back from the Moon, so be it.....
The leaked picture...ah Irwin, Young and Mattingley (he of Apollo 13 German measles fame),...............................
Apollo 13....no pressure loss....but no heat....they were freezing to death.
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I was wondering if anyone knows why the US have delayed the public issue of the 'official' file on JFK for another 50 years...
...thus rendering anyone involved during the assisignation dead and out of harms way when the papers are (if) finally released.
...thus rendering anyone involved during the assisignation dead and out of harms way when the papers are (if) finally released.
When the classification was extended , the comment was made by the president...."Who would really want to read them anyway...?"
My immediate response was...."I do....every last word of them!"
As part of my training as a criminal investigator for a federal agency...we used the Warren Report as a source of information....and exactly like the film "JFK"....we came up with a laundry list of questions (leads in investigator speak) that would need to be answered before we could close a case.
The Warren Report was designed to close the book....not answer the questions....
Track some of the members of that commission....
Gerald Ford, Arlan Spector.....to name two.
My immediate response was...."I do....every last word of them!"
As part of my training as a criminal investigator for a federal agency...we used the Warren Report as a source of information....and exactly like the film "JFK"....we came up with a laundry list of questions (leads in investigator speak) that would need to be answered before we could close a case.
The Warren Report was designed to close the book....not answer the questions....
Track some of the members of that commission....
Gerald Ford, Arlan Spector.....to name two.
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SASless
Do you know if they will ever be released? As you say, the majority of the western would be fascinated to know if the truth, (if what they actually do release will be the truth!)
I've visited the Book Depositry and was impressed with the accuracy of the assassin from that range to a 20mph moving target with 2 direct hits causing that amount of head damage that was released in the Zapruda film.
Do you know if they will ever be released? As you say, the majority of the western would be fascinated to know if the truth, (if what they actually do release will be the truth!)
I've visited the Book Depositry and was impressed with the accuracy of the assassin from that range to a 20mph moving target with 2 direct hits causing that amount of head damage that was released in the Zapruda film.
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We need more than one thread here !!!
Apollo 13...
I think that the problem with the pressure suits is that the astronauts would have been too hot in them. The pressure suit provides really good insulation, so good that the astronauts own body heat will cause them to sweat and become dehydrated. Apollo-era suits had a water-cooled undergarment which circulated cool liquid through a heat-exchanger to maintain an even comfortable environment inside the suit.
Apollo 13 was short of power and water, and the astronauts were very tired. I believe that Mission Control considered and rejected the idea of having the astronauts get into and out of the suits because:
- just sitting in the suit could cause the astronaut to become dehydrated
- running the suit circulation pump would take power from somewhere (initially the suit batteries, but then from a recharge point on the ship itself)
- getting into and out of the suits would have exhausted the crew more quickly
- chance of damaging the pressure suits, which might have been bad had the cabin vented.
(I'm sure I read it somewhere; might have been in Jim Lovell's book ("Lost Moon", now "Apollo 13") or the Chalkin book)
I heard Fred Haise talk in Orlando back in '99 (irrelevant to supporting my position, but still really fascinating to hear him talk). Man got a standing ovation at the end of his talk on Quality! Really nice chap.
I think that the problem with the pressure suits is that the astronauts would have been too hot in them. The pressure suit provides really good insulation, so good that the astronauts own body heat will cause them to sweat and become dehydrated. Apollo-era suits had a water-cooled undergarment which circulated cool liquid through a heat-exchanger to maintain an even comfortable environment inside the suit.
Apollo 13 was short of power and water, and the astronauts were very tired. I believe that Mission Control considered and rejected the idea of having the astronauts get into and out of the suits because:
- just sitting in the suit could cause the astronaut to become dehydrated
- running the suit circulation pump would take power from somewhere (initially the suit batteries, but then from a recharge point on the ship itself)
- getting into and out of the suits would have exhausted the crew more quickly
- chance of damaging the pressure suits, which might have been bad had the cabin vented.
(I'm sure I read it somewhere; might have been in Jim Lovell's book ("Lost Moon", now "Apollo 13") or the Chalkin book)
I heard Fred Haise talk in Orlando back in '99 (irrelevant to supporting my position, but still really fascinating to hear him talk). Man got a standing ovation at the end of his talk on Quality! Really nice chap.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Wallace and Gromits trip to the moon in 'A Grand Day Out' showed a glimpse of what really happened up there!!
SS
SS
Sealac....you may have missed a previous post.....NO!
One of the reasons....a good friend from those days found himself inside the crash site at the Pentagon picking up pieces of airplane and people....putting them into plastic or paper bags as appropriate and tagging them for analysis. His account of what transpired there and knowing of his ability and character.....I accept what happened there for what it was. A terrorist act that murdered a lot of very nice people just like you and me....folks going about their ordinary...common lives.
Bluntly....I don't care one whit what was in that report....I have not read it. I do not have any interest in reading it. I know the report is just a piece of paper that summarizes a very complex situation and that no piece of paper....will ever tell the whole, complete, perfect account of what happened on that day. I do not care about that....again...not in the least do I care.
What I care about is the information that resulted from that investigation....and all of the investigations that were not reported....nor will be. I care about the information that was gleaned from material that has been obtained by military action in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places you have not heard about and will not.
What I care about is that information being effectively used to hunt down and render combat ineffective every single terrorist, terrorist group, and every piece and person involved in the support infrastructure of those terrorist groups and terrorists.
I don't care how it is done....so long as it gets done effectively and completely. I don't care how long it takes...how much it costs or where we have to go to do it.
Now Sealac.....do you have any question what I think about the 911 Attack, the people and organizations that did the attack, the people and groups that supported them then and continue to do so today?
I don't care about the higher moral ground...being "Right" or any of that liberal mantra that gets thrown out everytime something like this happens.
We are engaged in an old fashioned rat killing.....I pray our forces good hunting.
Any other questions I can answer for you Sealac....just ask away.
One of the reasons....a good friend from those days found himself inside the crash site at the Pentagon picking up pieces of airplane and people....putting them into plastic or paper bags as appropriate and tagging them for analysis. His account of what transpired there and knowing of his ability and character.....I accept what happened there for what it was. A terrorist act that murdered a lot of very nice people just like you and me....folks going about their ordinary...common lives.
Bluntly....I don't care one whit what was in that report....I have not read it. I do not have any interest in reading it. I know the report is just a piece of paper that summarizes a very complex situation and that no piece of paper....will ever tell the whole, complete, perfect account of what happened on that day. I do not care about that....again...not in the least do I care.
What I care about is the information that resulted from that investigation....and all of the investigations that were not reported....nor will be. I care about the information that was gleaned from material that has been obtained by military action in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places you have not heard about and will not.
What I care about is that information being effectively used to hunt down and render combat ineffective every single terrorist, terrorist group, and every piece and person involved in the support infrastructure of those terrorist groups and terrorists.
I don't care how it is done....so long as it gets done effectively and completely. I don't care how long it takes...how much it costs or where we have to go to do it.
Now Sealac.....do you have any question what I think about the 911 Attack, the people and organizations that did the attack, the people and groups that supported them then and continue to do so today?
I don't care about the higher moral ground...being "Right" or any of that liberal mantra that gets thrown out everytime something like this happens.
We are engaged in an old fashioned rat killing.....I pray our forces good hunting.
Any other questions I can answer for you Sealac....just ask away.
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SASless
do you not care as an investigator, that the Bush administration allowed free passage for all of the Bin Laden family members to leave the US the day after 9/11. Why didnt the FBI have the opportunity to say 'do you know where your big brother/ uncle/ cousin/ Osama is to all of those members of the immediate family. Incidentally they were flown out in one of the very few flights permitted to take place in the US on 10/11. WHY??
Do you not care as an investigator that the WMD and the technology were supplied by the US and UK.
Do you not care as an investigator that out of the 19 high jackers, 16 were from Saudi Arabia, non from Iraq yet we used that as an excuse to kill 150 000 iraquis?
And do you not wonder why as an investigator we have suddenly gone on this world crusade against terror, when for 25 years people within the United States openly funded a terrorist organisation called the IRA through a group in the US called Noraid, to the tune of at least $25 million a year. The IRA was responsible for the murder of as many people in the UK as in the WTC. We bombed Afghanistan and Iraq because we believe they supported terrorism. The US openly supported the IRA terrorist organisation, did that give the Brits the right to bomb the s**t out of the USA (not that we could have done!).
What really worries me is what is going to happen when we have killed all the terrorists. The US economy is totally reliant on the defence industry. No war is bad for business.
Nobody is doubting that on 9/11 a lot of very good American citizens died, and the tragic consequences that this has had on thousands of families and friends. What i want to know is WHO murdered them and WHY they were murdered, and as an investigator you must realise that the answers to those questions have not been answered in any where near what might be described as a satisfactoy manner. The conspiracy theorists who talk about holographic images of aircraft are a sandwich short of a picnic. A lot of people were murdered, WHY and WHO, the US government has not answered those questions, nor in my opinion have the perpitrators been brought to justice for 9/11. Shooting from the hip and killing over 200000 people in Iraq and Afghanistan in the hope we might get a few terrorists in the process is not the way a civilised, democratic society should conduct itself - in my opinion.
Over the last 200 years both the Brits and the US have been responsible for a lot of good, we have also been responsible for a LOT of bad. Facing those particular things make many of us feel uneasy and uncomfortable. We need to take a strong look at ourselves before we endevour to become world policemen.
do you not care as an investigator, that the Bush administration allowed free passage for all of the Bin Laden family members to leave the US the day after 9/11. Why didnt the FBI have the opportunity to say 'do you know where your big brother/ uncle/ cousin/ Osama is to all of those members of the immediate family. Incidentally they were flown out in one of the very few flights permitted to take place in the US on 10/11. WHY??
Do you not care as an investigator that the WMD and the technology were supplied by the US and UK.
Do you not care as an investigator that out of the 19 high jackers, 16 were from Saudi Arabia, non from Iraq yet we used that as an excuse to kill 150 000 iraquis?
murdered a lot of very nice people just like you and me....folks going about their ordinary...common lives.
What really worries me is what is going to happen when we have killed all the terrorists. The US economy is totally reliant on the defence industry. No war is bad for business.
Nobody is doubting that on 9/11 a lot of very good American citizens died, and the tragic consequences that this has had on thousands of families and friends. What i want to know is WHO murdered them and WHY they were murdered, and as an investigator you must realise that the answers to those questions have not been answered in any where near what might be described as a satisfactoy manner. The conspiracy theorists who talk about holographic images of aircraft are a sandwich short of a picnic. A lot of people were murdered, WHY and WHO, the US government has not answered those questions, nor in my opinion have the perpitrators been brought to justice for 9/11. Shooting from the hip and killing over 200000 people in Iraq and Afghanistan in the hope we might get a few terrorists in the process is not the way a civilised, democratic society should conduct itself - in my opinion.
Over the last 200 years both the Brits and the US have been responsible for a lot of good, we have also been responsible for a LOT of bad. Facing those particular things make many of us feel uneasy and uncomfortable. We need to take a strong look at ourselves before we endevour to become world policemen.
Last edited by Tigs2; 2nd Jul 2005 at 10:44.
When I can get my information from the original source...and not the mainstream media....with their known lack of credibility...down to 23% now is it.....I will be glad to read something and form an opinion. If you read the BBC link above, you will see the article is quotes the female reporter who plainly is lying as her account contradicts both the American forces version and the Italian Intelligence officers account. Even the Intelligence officer said he was in a panic after hearing some shots and thus was driving fast in the dark.
Things happen in combat....mistakes were made on both sides probably....sources quoted in the article from both sides agree to that. It is only some that continue to paint it as a black hearted scheme by the Americans.
All some want to talk about is WMD.....but if you do a review of everything said leading up to the war....WMD was but one of the issues. It was the drum that was beat the most while other issues remained less publicized but the other issues remain valid.
Some of us are unalterably opposed to the war....nothing said by anyone else is going to change those minds. There are others of us that support the war....and again...nothing is going to change our minds. Thus arguing about this and that and every little thing is pointless. George Bush could have put the Bin Laden's on the airplane himself....I don't care. Hell...there are those that think that anyway....maybe being a pilot he flew the airplane....again....one can believe what every you want....some do never mind how implausible it is....then proclaim it as the truth to all and sundry.
The one real fact that has to be faced....we are in a war. We cannot change that. The only way to see some good come out of this is to ensure the success of the troops on the ground....establish a free Iraqi government....stick with them until they are on their feet and secure then leave them to their business.
Anyone that cannot see the good that comes to the Iraqi people after all of this ugliness is over is blind to reality. Saddam's thugs were killing Iraqi's without the war....they continue to do so in an attempt to regain power. The Iraqi infrastructure was allowed to decay while Saddam built palaces and underground bunkers....and maintained his military might.
In time the insurgency will be defeated by the Iraqi people....it will come by political means more than military means. Just as in Northern Ireland....at some point the people grow tired of death, mayhem, and violence and that will be the end of the insurgency.
In time....peace will return to Iraq....and the Iraqi people will enjoy their freedom . If that is bad for the Iraqi people....explain what was good about the Saddam Regime please?
The questions to be asked....could we have stopped with Afghanistan? If we had only gone to Afghanistan.....would that have destroyed Al Qaeda? If we had stayed out of Iraq, would Syria have pulled out of Lebanon? Would Libya have renounced all efforts to obtain nuclear weapons? Would Egypt be moving towards free elections? Would we be in a better position to address Iran's efforts to obtain nuclear weapons? Would the Palestinians and Israeli's be doing as they are...moving in the direction of a more peaceful situation? Would the Iraqi people be forming their own democratic government or would Saddam's thugs still be murdering and torturing the Iraqi people?
The war in Iraq is just piece of the mosaic.....open your eyes and look at the entire situation....not just a part of it.
Things happen in combat....mistakes were made on both sides probably....sources quoted in the article from both sides agree to that. It is only some that continue to paint it as a black hearted scheme by the Americans.
All some want to talk about is WMD.....but if you do a review of everything said leading up to the war....WMD was but one of the issues. It was the drum that was beat the most while other issues remained less publicized but the other issues remain valid.
Some of us are unalterably opposed to the war....nothing said by anyone else is going to change those minds. There are others of us that support the war....and again...nothing is going to change our minds. Thus arguing about this and that and every little thing is pointless. George Bush could have put the Bin Laden's on the airplane himself....I don't care. Hell...there are those that think that anyway....maybe being a pilot he flew the airplane....again....one can believe what every you want....some do never mind how implausible it is....then proclaim it as the truth to all and sundry.
The one real fact that has to be faced....we are in a war. We cannot change that. The only way to see some good come out of this is to ensure the success of the troops on the ground....establish a free Iraqi government....stick with them until they are on their feet and secure then leave them to their business.
Anyone that cannot see the good that comes to the Iraqi people after all of this ugliness is over is blind to reality. Saddam's thugs were killing Iraqi's without the war....they continue to do so in an attempt to regain power. The Iraqi infrastructure was allowed to decay while Saddam built palaces and underground bunkers....and maintained his military might.
In time the insurgency will be defeated by the Iraqi people....it will come by political means more than military means. Just as in Northern Ireland....at some point the people grow tired of death, mayhem, and violence and that will be the end of the insurgency.
In time....peace will return to Iraq....and the Iraqi people will enjoy their freedom . If that is bad for the Iraqi people....explain what was good about the Saddam Regime please?
The questions to be asked....could we have stopped with Afghanistan? If we had only gone to Afghanistan.....would that have destroyed Al Qaeda? If we had stayed out of Iraq, would Syria have pulled out of Lebanon? Would Libya have renounced all efforts to obtain nuclear weapons? Would Egypt be moving towards free elections? Would we be in a better position to address Iran's efforts to obtain nuclear weapons? Would the Palestinians and Israeli's be doing as they are...moving in the direction of a more peaceful situation? Would the Iraqi people be forming their own democratic government or would Saddam's thugs still be murdering and torturing the Iraqi people?
The war in Iraq is just piece of the mosaic.....open your eyes and look at the entire situation....not just a part of it.
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SASless
What other issues?? And are they a valid - LEGAL reason for going to war? WE (in the UK) were told we were justified (legally) in going to war because he had WMD. Now we know they dont exist we are coming out with lots of other c**p excuses.
Saddam murdered 10 000 kurds with chemical weapons some of which were provided by the US and UK, he tortured people. So he is the bad guy. So we go in and murder 150 000 iraquis and torture them.
The world is not a safer place since Saddam was moved from power, it is decidedly unsafer. And dont mention all this rubbish about peole being murdered as an excuse to invade Iraq. Why have we (The Coillition) not moved into Africa to prevent te slaughter of 100s of thousands of men women and children at the hands of ruthless dictators. A need far more urgent than anything Saddam was doing. Call me an old Cynic but the reason is Africa has nothing we want. It has nothing the worlds largest consumer of oil wants.
You are wrong with this one pard-ner. The reason the troubles stopped in Northern Ireland is the US decided it was against its own political interests to continue giving public support to the IRA. So the financial heart was ripped out of the organisation overnight. You never did comment from my previous post, how do you feel about supporting a terrorist organisation that killed as many people in the UK as died on 9/11. Do we have right of retribution??
You have know concept of how the Middle East works. There will never be Peace in the Middle East. If Russia the great soviet union had moved in to impose its will on the people of the US, you would all to a man and woman have continued your struggle till death to get them out of the country.
Pandoras Box has been opened.
God help us all.
It was the drum that was beat the most while other issues remained less publicized but the other issues remain valid.
Saddam murdered 10 000 kurds with chemical weapons some of which were provided by the US and UK, he tortured people. So he is the bad guy. So we go in and murder 150 000 iraquis and torture them.
The world is not a safer place since Saddam was moved from power, it is decidedly unsafer. And dont mention all this rubbish about peole being murdered as an excuse to invade Iraq. Why have we (The Coillition) not moved into Africa to prevent te slaughter of 100s of thousands of men women and children at the hands of ruthless dictators. A need far more urgent than anything Saddam was doing. Call me an old Cynic but the reason is Africa has nothing we want. It has nothing the worlds largest consumer of oil wants.
In time the insurgency will be defeated by the Iraqi people....it will come by political means more than military means. Just as in Northern Ireland....at some point the people grow tired of death, mayhem, and violence and that will be the end of the insurgency.
You have know concept of how the Middle East works. There will never be Peace in the Middle East. If Russia the great soviet union had moved in to impose its will on the people of the US, you would all to a man and woman have continued your struggle till death to get them out of the country.
Pandoras Box has been opened.
The war in Iraq is just piece of the mosaic
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SASless,
This may cut it in some parts of the US but countries which value the rule of law are starting to distance themselves from this 'loose and fast with the truth' routine. We'll have to agree to differ SASless - good luck.
Thus arguing about this and that and every little thing is pointless. George Bush could have put the Bin Laden's on the airplane himself....I don't care.
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SASless
Further to Selacs comments and my last post.
You make some fairly bold statements. Why dont you justify them?? Do you really think we could have stopped with Afghanistan? The truth is Afghanistan is nowhere near over. We went in and kicked ass and have created a worse mess than existed there in the first place. The women are back to being oppressed, no one is going to school, we have just let a different bunch of thugs in. All our well intended actions are in these countries are to go in, kill loads of people, let loads of our soldiers die, for what?? for nothing because we just let them revert back to what they were doing because we are not interested in them, we are interested in short term political, fnancial and military gain. Wake up SASless. The only reason we forget about the countries is that we pull the media out to go somewhere else. No media, the world forgets - simple. Afghanistan is a mess, do you think iraq will be any different?
The questions to be asked....could we have stopped with Afghanistan?
You make some fairly bold statements. Why dont you justify them?? Do you really think we could have stopped with Afghanistan? The truth is Afghanistan is nowhere near over. We went in and kicked ass and have created a worse mess than existed there in the first place. The women are back to being oppressed, no one is going to school, we have just let a different bunch of thugs in. All our well intended actions are in these countries are to go in, kill loads of people, let loads of our soldiers die, for what?? for nothing because we just let them revert back to what they were doing because we are not interested in them, we are interested in short term political, fnancial and military gain. Wake up SASless. The only reason we forget about the countries is that we pull the media out to go somewhere else. No media, the world forgets - simple. Afghanistan is a mess, do you think iraq will be any different?
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SASless
i hate hate hate doing double messages. However you made some really strong statements and dont seem to have the Kuhoonas to answer the responses to your replies. You have been on line many times and seem to be ignoring your obligation to answer replies to your statements.
i hate hate hate doing double messages. However you made some really strong statements and dont seem to have the Kuhoonas to answer the responses to your replies. You have been on line many times and seem to be ignoring your obligation to answer replies to your statements.
Tiggsy.....hate to rain on your rant....have been gone working my hay farm....the sun was shining and it needed doing. The absence was due to good old fashioned manual labor...you know the kind with greasy hands....sweaty clothes.....the kind of thing the commoners do. You should give it a go....good exercise...helps clear the mind.
You seem to have run up a lot of questions....see few answers to them in your posts. Explain your solution to all these problems....lets see how they fly?
If this is not a big mosaic....what is it?
Did you consider the change in the US Federal law about financing Terrorist Organizations.....I posted a copy of that law's list of organizations....amongst which are a couple of Irish groups....it was in a different thread probably....but that is the law now....maybe that escaped your notice.
You suggest it was the cutting of funds that did in the IRA....and US law made that funding illegal....are you suggesting we may have had more effect in putting that insurgency down than all the other efforts put together?
You seem to have run up a lot of questions....see few answers to them in your posts. Explain your solution to all these problems....lets see how they fly?
If this is not a big mosaic....what is it?
Did you consider the change in the US Federal law about financing Terrorist Organizations.....I posted a copy of that law's list of organizations....amongst which are a couple of Irish groups....it was in a different thread probably....but that is the law now....maybe that escaped your notice.
You suggest it was the cutting of funds that did in the IRA....and US law made that funding illegal....are you suggesting we may have had more effect in putting that insurgency down than all the other efforts put together?
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Thanks for the reply. Your right, to many unanswered questions, i guess thats the problem.
Bye the way If ever you want anyone to help out on the hayfarm, there is nothing i would love more, wont even charge you for labour. Sounds like pure utopia compared to lifes busy busy hustle and bustle.
Tigs
Thanks for the reply. Your right, to many unanswered questions, i guess thats the problem.
Bye the way If ever you want anyone to help out on the hayfarm, there is nothing i would love more, wont even charge you for labour. Sounds like pure utopia compared to lifes busy busy hustle and bustle.
Tigs
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So SAless, you're admitting then that once the US stopped funding the IRA, things got better?
Hmm, maybe a tactic to try to bring peace to other parts of the world, like that country whose name shall not be mentioned on PPruNe.
Hmm, maybe a tactic to try to bring peace to other parts of the world, like that country whose name shall not be mentioned on PPruNe.