Reds - Fuel wasters
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A professional team who are masters of their trade. I don't see a big problem with them flying down in the weeds, after all, that's what most of the pilots careers have consisted of. They have the best training possible to do so.
But let's not try and make them out as Gods who can do no wrong. They are human and make the occasional screw up like the rest of us. For example, the electricity wire strike in the Highlands a few years back ?? Definitely avoidable and a potential loss of aircraft and life.
Jealous, moaning civvies who would doubtless give their eye teeth to sit in a Hawk, let alone fly in one should rest assured that the RAFAT has been flying quite safely around the UK for decades - so don't look for problems where non exist!
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Beagle
You hold a civil tongue when you're argueing with me sir. There's already been one mud slinging thread about you, no need to give cause for another.
as for:
seems to indicate that you agree with my concerns. let's hope your histrionic support of weekend LL flying by RAFAT doesn't shoot you in the foot.
Jealous moaning civvies....give me a break!
Don't be such an utter ar$e!
as for:
far safer for the Reds to transit at a level not normally used by GA
Jealous moaning civvies....give me a break!
Comments such as "Please tell me, why do you have to fly so low??
A - It's bloody dangerous, all those C150's etc etc in class G that don't read your notams.
B - It's a waste of fuel.
".....the men in red quickfit fitter suits.... "
are totally and utterly proctological. Very few GA aircraft fly at 500 ft outside known aerodromes (including microlight and gliding sites) - I'd far sooner see the RAFAT flying below me at 250-1000ft in Class G airspace than up in the 2000-3000 ft height band where most of us spamcan drivers fly. If you think that the RAFAT should transit at higher levels, try threading a 9 or 10-ship formation around UK weather at medium level... As for flying in Regulated Airspace, that is rarely practical given the locations of many display venues.
RAFAT transits have been entirely safe for decades. There is simply no case to answer.
A - It's bloody dangerous, all those C150's etc etc in class G that don't read your notams.
B - It's a waste of fuel.
".....the men in red quickfit fitter suits.... "
are totally and utterly proctological. Very few GA aircraft fly at 500 ft outside known aerodromes (including microlight and gliding sites) - I'd far sooner see the RAFAT flying below me at 250-1000ft in Class G airspace than up in the 2000-3000 ft height band where most of us spamcan drivers fly. If you think that the RAFAT should transit at higher levels, try threading a 9 or 10-ship formation around UK weather at medium level... As for flying in Regulated Airspace, that is rarely practical given the locations of many display venues.
RAFAT transits have been entirely safe for decades. There is simply no case to answer.
Last edited by BEagle; 25th Jun 2005 at 22:44.
BEagle is irritatingly correct as usual 
Any higher than 1000' ft and you run into GA. Any lower and the likelihood of birdstrike increases markedly. Also, they won't perform flypasts for weddings etc but every now and then someone gets lucky. With TOTs to make, flying in controlled airspace would be a nightmare with all the restrictions that it would impose. And it does look like most of the detractors here have probably neither met nor flown with the current Team who are, on the whole (
), a decent bunch.
Any higher than 1000' ft and you run into GA. Any lower and the likelihood of birdstrike increases markedly. Also, they won't perform flypasts for weddings etc but every now and then someone gets lucky. With TOTs to make, flying in controlled airspace would be a nightmare with all the restrictions that it would impose. And it does look like most of the detractors here have probably neither met nor flown with the current Team who are, on the whole ( ), a decent bunch.
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Right, Beagle - self appointed judge and jury of the military forum- Please consider this:
1) a quick trawl of the web indicates that 14 airproxes have occured with the Reds in the last three years all with light traffic. 2) Do you consider that your average microlight pilot, departing from a private strip for a local jolly, contacts the Reds freefone nbr Alfens Ops, alerts CANP etc. If you do; read this
Re: Close Shave,Tuesday 22-Aug-2000 11:46:53,
A very concise report of what must have been a very nasty experience.If the Tornado was transiting from Scotland to an air show in the South of England what the heck was it doing at 2400 feet over Cambridge. The air is stuffed with small slow light aircraft below 3000 feet. The RAF should have more sense than to go belting through this lot at 450 knots or so.,Barry Plumb,[email protected],,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,
Re: Close Shave,Wednesday 23-Aug-2000 02:35:16,
Count me and Claire in for a trip to West Drayton either Weekend or evening.Interesting that West Drayton confirmed they had seen your airprox (and wondered!). Would London Information be able to provide a service? I don't really want to have a Radar service and radio contact every time I fly but if that's the only safe way.......Claire and myself have had experiences in a similar location as yourselves. One was a Tornado500ft below right to left directly underneath as we were climbing away through 1000ft from Sutton Meadows having just taken off. Another was the entire RAF Red Arrows display team in loose formation at about 800ft (we were at about 1200ft) below and in front 2 miles North of Sutton Meadows. On both occasions we were flying a 3 axis microlights with no strobe and no transponder but highly visible and close to two airfields with intense microlight activity.The farm strip that I fly from now is marked on the chart but that doesn't seem to deter regular visits through the airfield pattern at 200 - 300ft by Tornado's which are more interested in the radio tower close by for their turning point.I just wonder what their flight planning consists of and whether their maps actually show small civil airfields or just military fields and bombing ranges.Safe Flying!?,Vic Leggott,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Re: Close Shave,Tuesday 29-Aug-2000 06:38:38,
Glad you're still with us Andy and Alan it seems the RAF are a law unto themselves a freind of mine was missed by only 150 feet on final approach to Popham by an F15 at 250 feet altitude !! He was following a GPS track with his head down in the cockpit. Nasty.,Alan Gornall,[email protected],,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Cotton wrapped Crabs
Clearly some of you crabs, and ex crabs, are very touchy about your one and only display team, to the point that you become rather rude about innocent crew room style banter, which many of you enjoy and even encourage. I'm pretty sure that all of you have poked fun at the Reds expense, in the past. So some of the comments you have made on this thread makes you hypocrites, in my opinion.
Not once have I asked for the Reds to be disbanded, they are, as far as the majority of the country is concerned, a good PR machine for the RAF, long may it continue
Mil Low Flying
This can be divided into two categories
1) Need to do
2) Nice to do
The Reds, in my opinion, do not fall into category 1 as a general rule.
So, my dear Reds, when uncle Beagle comes and tucks you in at night and reads you the latest from JSP 500 and something. Consider; is it safer down there with the GA hoodies, or would the next transit to Widdecombe fair be safer along lower airways?
Save a bit of petrol too !
1) a quick trawl of the web indicates that 14 airproxes have occured with the Reds in the last three years all with light traffic. 2) Do you consider that your average microlight pilot, departing from a private strip for a local jolly, contacts the Reds freefone nbr Alfens Ops, alerts CANP etc. If you do; read this
Re: Close Shave,Tuesday 22-Aug-2000 11:46:53,
A very concise report of what must have been a very nasty experience.If the Tornado was transiting from Scotland to an air show in the South of England what the heck was it doing at 2400 feet over Cambridge. The air is stuffed with small slow light aircraft below 3000 feet. The RAF should have more sense than to go belting through this lot at 450 knots or so.,Barry Plumb,[email protected],,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,
Re: Close Shave,Wednesday 23-Aug-2000 02:35:16,
Count me and Claire in for a trip to West Drayton either Weekend or evening.Interesting that West Drayton confirmed they had seen your airprox (and wondered!). Would London Information be able to provide a service? I don't really want to have a Radar service and radio contact every time I fly but if that's the only safe way.......Claire and myself have had experiences in a similar location as yourselves. One was a Tornado500ft below right to left directly underneath as we were climbing away through 1000ft from Sutton Meadows having just taken off. Another was the entire RAF Red Arrows display team in loose formation at about 800ft (we were at about 1200ft) below and in front 2 miles North of Sutton Meadows. On both occasions we were flying a 3 axis microlights with no strobe and no transponder but highly visible and close to two airfields with intense microlight activity.The farm strip that I fly from now is marked on the chart but that doesn't seem to deter regular visits through the airfield pattern at 200 - 300ft by Tornado's which are more interested in the radio tower close by for their turning point.I just wonder what their flight planning consists of and whether their maps actually show small civil airfields or just military fields and bombing ranges.Safe Flying!?,Vic Leggott,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Re: Close Shave,Tuesday 29-Aug-2000 06:38:38,
Glad you're still with us Andy and Alan it seems the RAF are a law unto themselves a freind of mine was missed by only 150 feet on final approach to Popham by an F15 at 250 feet altitude !! He was following a GPS track with his head down in the cockpit. Nasty.,Alan Gornall,[email protected],,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Cotton wrapped Crabs
Clearly some of you crabs, and ex crabs, are very touchy about your one and only display team, to the point that you become rather rude about innocent crew room style banter, which many of you enjoy and even encourage. I'm pretty sure that all of you have poked fun at the Reds expense, in the past. So some of the comments you have made on this thread makes you hypocrites, in my opinion.
Not once have I asked for the Reds to be disbanded, they are, as far as the majority of the country is concerned, a good PR machine for the RAF, long may it continue
Mil Low Flying
This can be divided into two categories
1) Need to do
2) Nice to do
The Reds, in my opinion, do not fall into category 1 as a general rule.
So, my dear Reds, when uncle Beagle comes and tucks you in at night and reads you the latest from JSP 500 and something. Consider; is it safer down there with the GA hoodies, or would the next transit to Widdecombe fair be safer along lower airways?
Save a bit of petrol too !
FEBA, you're just digging yourself a bigger and bigger hole over this issue....
If you don't want to listen to my views, fair enough. But Ham Phisted has explained the problems quite succinctly.
And some of those quotes about 'Close Shave' show some very naive views indeed:
"Would London Information be able to provide a service? I don't really want to have a Radar service and radio contact every time I fly but if that's the only safe way"
"The farm strip that I fly from now is marked on the chart but that doesn't seem to deter regular visits through the airfield pattern at 200 - 300ft by Tornado's which are more interested in the radio tower close by for their turning point."
"If the Tornado was transiting from Scotland to an air show in the South of England what the heck was it doing at 2400 feet over Cambridge"
"...it seems the RAF are a law unto themselves a freind of mine was missed by only 150 feet on final approach to Popham by an F15 at 250 feet altitude !! He was following a GPS track with his head down in the cockpit"
If you don't want to listen to my views, fair enough. But Ham Phisted has explained the problems quite succinctly.
And some of those quotes about 'Close Shave' show some very naive views indeed:
"Would London Information be able to provide a service? I don't really want to have a Radar service and radio contact every time I fly but if that's the only safe way"
"The farm strip that I fly from now is marked on the chart but that doesn't seem to deter regular visits through the airfield pattern at 200 - 300ft by Tornado's which are more interested in the radio tower close by for their turning point."
"If the Tornado was transiting from Scotland to an air show in the South of England what the heck was it doing at 2400 feet over Cambridge"
"...it seems the RAF are a law unto themselves a freind of mine was missed by only 150 feet on final approach to Popham by an F15 at 250 feet altitude !! He was following a GPS track with his head down in the cockpit"
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Beagle
Now I agree with you. Yes they do show unsophistcated views from clear amatuers; and that's exactly my point. These are types that the Reds will and have come up against during WEEKEND flying. QED. There's got to be a safer way.
I'll pass the shovel over to you mate
Actually I have flown with an ex Red. Nice bloke but a bit boring
Now I agree with you. Yes they do show unsophistcated views from clear amatuers; and that's exactly my point. These are types that the Reds will and have come up against during WEEKEND flying. QED. There's got to be a safer way.
I'll pass the shovel over to you mate
Actually I have flown with an ex Red. Nice bloke but a bit boring
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"...it seems the RAF are a law unto themselves a freind of mine was missed by only 150 feet on final approach to Popham by an F15 at 250 feet altitude !! He was following a GPS track with his head down in the cockpit"
Your friend, whether on a GPS track or not, at 100' should not have his head in the cockpit (assuming that is what you meant!). At Popham, and that height, he should have his eyes on the stalks. Probably on short finals too! Sounds more than a little crass to me - and it depends on which runway he was approaching.
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RTR, I think you'll find he meant the F-15 driver had his head inside the office 
But how the civie on finals at 150' managed to see the F15 pilot heads down in his cockpit as he went above him - Lord only knows 
MadMark!!!
But how the civie on finals at 150' managed to see the F15 pilot heads down in his cockpit as he went above him - Lord only knows MadMark!!!
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FEBA - you seem to have a very strong view but seem to quote others only. Do you have a pilot's licence yourself (nothing shown on your profile) and if so, how much low flying experience do you have?
Just intrigued whether your view is a qualified one or if you just have an axe to grind...
Just intrigued whether your view is a qualified one or if you just have an axe to grind...
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Shy torque
Yes I hold a licence an No I have no axe to grind.
I remember talking some time ago to a mate who was held on the ground (LON - BRU) due to an ATC computer failure. His company offered him a special VFR departure option which would get him away pronto. It was rejected and rightly so.
it's a jungle down there so I wonder why would the Reds want to risk mixing it when to and from displays.
Yes I have done a spot of c&p merely to illustrate the calibre of pilot you find between 500 - 5000 RPS.
I do not accept that I'm digging myself a hole, as one has suggested, and will humbly admit error should I be proved wrong. I just don't think I am.
The Reds TRA's and R313 gets busted during weekdays by Mil pilots. Weekends; far more risky.
The money that the reds save by going high can be spent on hand outs for the kids ...... future Reds!
Yes I hold a licence an No I have no axe to grind.
I remember talking some time ago to a mate who was held on the ground (LON - BRU) due to an ATC computer failure. His company offered him a special VFR departure option which would get him away pronto. It was rejected and rightly so.
it's a jungle down there so I wonder why would the Reds want to risk mixing it when to and from displays.
Yes I have done a spot of c&p merely to illustrate the calibre of pilot you find between 500 - 5000 RPS.
I do not accept that I'm digging myself a hole, as one has suggested, and will humbly admit error should I be proved wrong. I just don't think I am.
The Reds TRA's and R313 gets busted during weekdays by Mil pilots. Weekends; far more risky.
The money that the reds save by going high can be spent on hand outs for the kids ...... future Reds!
"Clearance for Special VFR flight in the UK is an authorization by ATC for a pilot to fly within a Control Zone although he is unable to comply with IFR. In exceptional circumstances, requests for Special VFR flight may be granted for aircraft with an all-upweight exceeding 5700 kg and capable of flight under IFR."
Would an 'ATC computer failure' really be considered an 'exceptional circumstance' sufficient for CAT to depart the Class A CTR at 'LON' (or do you mean LHR?) en-route to Brussels? Or was it a small aeroplane?
Would an 'ATC computer failure' really be considered an 'exceptional circumstance' sufficient for CAT to depart the Class A CTR at 'LON' (or do you mean LHR?) en-route to Brussels? Or was it a small aeroplane?
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FEBA, you are out of the league. Stop trying to mix it with those whose lives are deeply attached to the real FJ world. So let us forget that all you wanted to do was impress us. Sorry but we are hoof tired for such nonsense.
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I fail to see how the ever decreasing volume of LFS traffic can cause such panic.
A. Get a radar service
and/or
B. Look out
or
C. Don't go flying if you can't accept a risk.
A. Get a radar service
and/or
B. Look out
or
C. Don't go flying if you can't accept a risk.
FEBA,
On what basis do you make your assertion that R313 gets busted by mil traffic? Sorry, mate, but you're talking out of your ar$e!
On what basis do you make your assertion that R313 gets busted by mil traffic? Sorry, mate, but you're talking out of your ar$e!
FEBA,
What about the GA pilot that decided to fly straight through the Reds display off the Isle of Wight recently. That was a great bit of airmanship.
No strobe or transponder....how does that make you highly visible in a microlight? This means that you cannot be seem on TCAS and unlikely to be seen on ATC radars either.
Which chart is it marked on? Is it an avoid? If not then it is also your responsibility to look out.
Why did he have his head down? If you meant the F15...well there are two pairs of eyes in that jet. What about your friend's aircraft? Was your friend transponding? Did he have his strobes off as well?
Now some facts. January to June 2004.
Airprox GA versus Military 12
GA versus GA 21
Source UKAB report GA book number 10.
Now whilst there is no doubt that seeing a fast jet at late notice can be an unnerving experience ther are many ways to mitigate the risk to yourself.
Look out the window.
Buy and use a High Intensity Strobe light.
Get a transponder and use it.
Get yourself at least a FIS from an appropriate LARS unit.
Don't assume, check. Before you take off, launch, tow that glider..check the airspace first. A formation of 9 red jets is not that difficult to see. A microlight is.
Remember if you are low and slow, your slow rate of bearing change makes you much more difficult to see.
Don't fly at 500' 1000' 1500' because that is where everyone else is!
My vote is for the Reds. It is one of the few positive PR elements that the RAF has these days. The RN has HMS Victory and the Army have the Royal Horse Artillery.
Get it into perspective
What about the GA pilot that decided to fly straight through the Reds display off the Isle of Wight recently. That was a great bit of airmanship.
On both occasions we were flying a 3 axis microlights with no strobe and no transponder but highly visible
The farm strip that I fly from now is marked on the chart
a freind of mine was missed by only 150 feet on final approach to Popham by an F15 at 250 feet altitude !! He was following a GPS track with his head down in the cockpit.
Now some facts. January to June 2004.
Airprox GA versus Military 12
GA versus GA 21
Source UKAB report GA book number 10.
Now whilst there is no doubt that seeing a fast jet at late notice can be an unnerving experience ther are many ways to mitigate the risk to yourself.
Look out the window.
Buy and use a High Intensity Strobe light.
Get a transponder and use it.
Get yourself at least a FIS from an appropriate LARS unit.
Don't assume, check. Before you take off, launch, tow that glider..check the airspace first. A formation of 9 red jets is not that difficult to see. A microlight is.
Remember if you are low and slow, your slow rate of bearing change makes you much more difficult to see.
Don't fly at 500' 1000' 1500' because that is where everyone else is!
My vote is for the Reds. It is one of the few positive PR elements that the RAF has these days. The RN has HMS Victory and the Army have the Royal Horse Artillery.
Get it into perspective
