ASCOT ops love or hate
Join Date: Apr 2005
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bouy 15,
If you read my post carefully then it should become apparent that there could be security implications, given the status of our Pax, in what I proposed.
If there was a problem in getting them to accept my proposals then mentioning the name of the Lady down the back usually resolved it.
If you read my post carefully then it should become apparent that there could be security implications, given the status of our Pax, in what I proposed.
If there was a problem in getting them to accept my proposals then mentioning the name of the Lady down the back usually resolved it.
opso, read my earlier posts and you'll find that I am a supporter of Ascot Ops - if they are allowed to get on with their work without sqn interference and if they have adequately trained staff. Not just the Tippex Tracy Phone Answering Branch incompetents....
Grumpy Old Men was an excellent TV series, by the way!
Grumpy Old Men was an excellent TV series, by the way!
I know I am an old git, but things were as bad or no better when that little grass airfield ran ascot ops. for those unfamiliar with life before High W, that was Upavon, we were lucky in those days comms were so poor that HQ staff were happy if you made any decision! Follow it up with a Fax if able was a common response. I know that now computer flight plans are the must have thing.
I do remember leaving Bangkok en-route to take the Foreign Sec to see the emperor of Japan. Prior to entering Taiwanese airspace Hong Kong said you have no clearance to enter their airspace. Staff officer to captain I can't understand it I wrote to the embassy in Beijing two months ago! I rest my case. I am sure the readers are better in informed on world politics than that staff officer.
I do remember leaving Bangkok en-route to take the Foreign Sec to see the emperor of Japan. Prior to entering Taiwanese airspace Hong Kong said you have no clearance to enter their airspace. Staff officer to captain I can't understand it I wrote to the embassy in Beijing two months ago! I rest my case. I am sure the readers are better in informed on world politics than that staff officer.
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UPAVON
However,
When they were at said grass airfield they had a UHF radio.
They 'forgot' to equip the other place with it. When one got airbourne from any of the then AT bases one could speak to a controller "Man to Man" rather than playing Chinese whispers. If you needed, for instance to turn back for a spare E.G.(crap radar) or warn them that you were inbound for co-ordination it was much, much, bettter than digital comm's. or shouting at the pregnant misemployed girls at the HF place. (So long as the messages were appropriatley classified)
When they were at said grass airfield they had a UHF radio.
They 'forgot' to equip the other place with it. When one got airbourne from any of the then AT bases one could speak to a controller "Man to Man" rather than playing Chinese whispers. If you needed, for instance to turn back for a spare E.G.(crap radar) or warn them that you were inbound for co-ordination it was much, much, bettter than digital comm's. or shouting at the pregnant misemployed girls at the HF place. (So long as the messages were appropriatley classified)
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Like all places, ASCOT has good guys and bad guys. Most are Flt Ops with little knowledge of AT. 
However, IIRC there used to be a couple of aircrew mates in there who did have recent AT experience to help them out. It's never ideal, and I'm sure they have their own manning issues, just like the rest of us, but they do have sight of the 'big picture'
and not just our task.
From my experience, if you give them and a problem and a solution, you are likely to get your own way, but if you just give them the problem ...
However, IIRC there used to be a couple of aircrew mates in there who did have recent AT experience to help them out. It's never ideal, and I'm sure they have their own manning issues, just like the rest of us, but they do have sight of the 'big picture'
and not just our task. From my experience, if you give them and a problem and a solution, you are likely to get your own way, but if you just give them the problem ...
Have we got any doughnuts?
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I would suggest that by and large, the problems with our newfangled ITOC do not exist within Ascot Ops, but within ITOC Task Plans, who seem to be intent on squeezing every last cost saving drop out of route operations.
The 16 hrs on, 14 hrs off cycle is becoming ever more regular and the Transop writers have become adept at scheduling a route to arrive back at base 143 hrs and 30 mins after first departing, lest the crew might qualify for a FREE DAY!
The result is that following any tech snag, movements delay or missing dip clearance (another Task Plans issue), the route becomes horribly delayed and often arrives back later than if some sensible flex had been built in in the first place.
The Ascot Ops controllers will try their best to recover the situation, but through no fault of their own are often lacking in experience. A good solution presented by the aircraft captain (without taking the pi$$) will often help them out.
That's my exercise for the day, I must go and lie down now.
The 16 hrs on, 14 hrs off cycle is becoming ever more regular and the Transop writers have become adept at scheduling a route to arrive back at base 143 hrs and 30 mins after first departing, lest the crew might qualify for a FREE DAY!
The result is that following any tech snag, movements delay or missing dip clearance (another Task Plans issue), the route becomes horribly delayed and often arrives back later than if some sensible flex had been built in in the first place.
The Ascot Ops controllers will try their best to recover the situation, but through no fault of their own are often lacking in experience. A good solution presented by the aircraft captain (without taking the pi$$) will often help them out.
That's my exercise for the day, I must go and lie down now.
Join Date: Aug 1998
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Things clearly have changed a lot. In my days at Upavon, we had a pretty good bunch of guys in Ops. Nearly all controllers were ex truckie drivers, navs etc and most had a fair amount of AT experience having come straight from the squadrons and known to most. Same applied to Sqn Ldrs and Wg Cdrs. Because they had the "big picture", decisions were usually correct, although of course at the time we thought they were all idiots! As for comms, we always found the SSB gave excellent voice quality anywhere in the world, especially if Upavon pointed their aerial in your direction. Incidentally, the ASCOT callsign has been in use since about 1959/60.
Ah, but Bof, that was when the RAF could afford to do things properly... The Phone Answering Branch (or Op Support Branch as they grandly call themselves) are not in the same league as the old Upavon Operations folk were.
Mind you, raising Artichoke wasn't quite as difficult as raising Cyprus Flight Watch. It was easier to raise the dead than it was to raise Cyprus FWA!
Mind you, raising Artichoke wasn't quite as difficult as raising Cyprus Flight Watch. It was easier to raise the dead than it was to raise Cyprus FWA!
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Beagle
Sorry about a quick departure from the thread, but reminds me of NF days at Malling, or should I say nights! We used to do PIs under control of Beachy Head GCI (c/s Testament at the time). Pete Bogue, well known 85 prankster calls Gorgeous Sounding WRAF Controller " Testicle, testicle this is XYZ etc etc". GSWC responds "Negative, negative, I say again Testament, Testament etc. PB "Roger Testicle etc " and so on. I think she gave up after about 5 minutes and had to be relieved.
Sorry about a quick departure from the thread, but reminds me of NF days at Malling, or should I say nights! We used to do PIs under control of Beachy Head GCI (c/s Testament at the time). Pete Bogue, well known 85 prankster calls Gorgeous Sounding WRAF Controller " Testicle, testicle this is XYZ etc etc". GSWC responds "Negative, negative, I say again Testament, Testament etc. PB "Roger Testicle etc " and so on. I think she gave up after about 5 minutes and had to be relieved.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Gents,
Interesting reading. As I work at ASCOT I am most interested in what has been written and have taken on board some observations.
One point :
'The Phone Answering Branch (or Op Support Branch as they grandly call themselves)'
There are Pilots, Flt Ops (OSB), MALMS, Flight Operations Managers and FOAS in ASCOT Ops.
We endeavour to do our best. If that is not good enough for you, I suggest you come and spend some time at ASCOT, and learn something.
If you have a genuine grievance/query with ASCOT I will gladly explain/provide.
God Bless.
Rev I Tin.
Interesting reading. As I work at ASCOT I am most interested in what has been written and have taken on board some observations.
One point :
'The Phone Answering Branch (or Op Support Branch as they grandly call themselves)'
There are Pilots, Flt Ops (OSB), MALMS, Flight Operations Managers and FOAS in ASCOT Ops.
We endeavour to do our best. If that is not good enough for you, I suggest you come and spend some time at ASCOT, and learn something.
If you have a genuine grievance/query with ASCOT I will gladly explain/provide.
God Bless.
Rev I Tin.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Rev, I may have spoken to you on the phone today!
I believe that all the ire at the Flt Ops pers there is somewhat undermined by the fact that there are 7 breveted staff there with, I understand, backgrounds in various large aircraft.
So what has actually changed?
I believe that all the ire at the Flt Ops pers there is somewhat undermined by the fact that there are 7 breveted staff there with, I understand, backgrounds in various large aircraft.
decisions were usually correct, although of course at the time we thought they were all idiots!
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AsleepByMidhurst -
Can't agree with your post, I'm afraid. Though not a TP myself, I have a fair idea of what their job involves and what constraints they have to work with. You, it would appear, do not. As ever, it is easy to criticise (especially anonymously and with no supporting evidence or real understanding of why things are done). I offer the following
1 'ITOC Task Plans, who seem to be intent on squeezing every last cost saving drop out of route operations.' - I wonder why they do that then? Almost as if they have been told to by someone who is concerned about the budget, and is therefore probably quite senior and therefore probably aircrew - as the 'phone answering branch' do not have anyone in that position.
2 'The 16 hrs on, 14 hrs off cycle is becoming ever more regular' - do you mean more regular or more frequent? This particular whinge has been brought up more than once over the past few years and without anyone producing the evidence to back it up.
3 '143 hrs and 30 mins after first departing, lest the crew might qualify for a FREE DAY'. This is just the Task Planners being bloody minded! We all know that there are far too many aircraft in the AT fleet just lying around at Brize/Lyneham with nothing to do. It would make lots of sense to hide them in sunny parts of the world for a few extra days. It's not like anyone will miss them!! Alternatively, if the timings overrun, the crew get the day off. If not, the aircraft can be used for something else. This is surely more flexible that always programming it not to get back
4 'or missing dip clearance (another Task Plans issue),' - Since when has dips been a Task Plans issue?? They do not apply for them and cannot create them. They can ask the dipclr cell to try to hasten them - and they do. But they cannot attach them to a transop if they have not been granted
Overall, the TPs and ASCOT do their damndest to make things work with very limited resources and ever moving goalposts. Many of the complaints here seem to hark back to the 'good old days' when ASCOT was staffed entirely by aircrew mates and therefore ran more effectively (allegedly). Of course, in those 'good old days' not only did we have the aircrew to spare to do the job, but we also had a bigger, better resourced AT fleet with more spare capacity and the bean counters (not to mention DTMA) did not have a stranglehold over everything. The Branch of (some of) the people filling the posts is not all that has changed.
If you pop into the TP office sometime, I am sure that they will dig out for you some of the itins submitted by Sqn training staff which have aircraft going to airfields which are not open/adequate, have illegal crew duty days, ignore crew rest rules, have insufficient time to obtain dipclrs etc etc. Of course, most of those do not get put into the public domain because the TP's and ASCOT are generally more concerned with sorting out the problems than in publicly rubishing their colleagues for doing their job.
Can't agree with your post, I'm afraid. Though not a TP myself, I have a fair idea of what their job involves and what constraints they have to work with. You, it would appear, do not. As ever, it is easy to criticise (especially anonymously and with no supporting evidence or real understanding of why things are done). I offer the following
1 'ITOC Task Plans, who seem to be intent on squeezing every last cost saving drop out of route operations.' - I wonder why they do that then? Almost as if they have been told to by someone who is concerned about the budget, and is therefore probably quite senior and therefore probably aircrew - as the 'phone answering branch' do not have anyone in that position.
2 'The 16 hrs on, 14 hrs off cycle is becoming ever more regular' - do you mean more regular or more frequent? This particular whinge has been brought up more than once over the past few years and without anyone producing the evidence to back it up.
3 '143 hrs and 30 mins after first departing, lest the crew might qualify for a FREE DAY'. This is just the Task Planners being bloody minded! We all know that there are far too many aircraft in the AT fleet just lying around at Brize/Lyneham with nothing to do. It would make lots of sense to hide them in sunny parts of the world for a few extra days. It's not like anyone will miss them!! Alternatively, if the timings overrun, the crew get the day off. If not, the aircraft can be used for something else. This is surely more flexible that always programming it not to get back
4 'or missing dip clearance (another Task Plans issue),' - Since when has dips been a Task Plans issue?? They do not apply for them and cannot create them. They can ask the dipclr cell to try to hasten them - and they do. But they cannot attach them to a transop if they have not been granted
Overall, the TPs and ASCOT do their damndest to make things work with very limited resources and ever moving goalposts. Many of the complaints here seem to hark back to the 'good old days' when ASCOT was staffed entirely by aircrew mates and therefore ran more effectively (allegedly). Of course, in those 'good old days' not only did we have the aircrew to spare to do the job, but we also had a bigger, better resourced AT fleet with more spare capacity and the bean counters (not to mention DTMA) did not have a stranglehold over everything. The Branch of (some of) the people filling the posts is not all that has changed.
If you pop into the TP office sometime, I am sure that they will dig out for you some of the itins submitted by Sqn training staff which have aircraft going to airfields which are not open/adequate, have illegal crew duty days, ignore crew rest rules, have insufficient time to obtain dipclrs etc etc. Of course, most of those do not get put into the public domain because the TP's and ASCOT are generally more concerned with sorting out the problems than in publicly rubishing their colleagues for doing their job.
Have we got any doughnuts?
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Lardy,
If you look at my post, you will find that I am not slagging off individuals in task plans, merely questioning the process as a whole. ( ie the effect rather than the cause ).
I have experience of both ends of the process and therefore understand the difficulties of both. My worry is that cost saving and aircraft availability are becoming more important than flight safety.
There are very few transaltlantic routes these days which dont involve a very punishing schedule of long days and short nights, which destroys circadian rythms. The sixth day of the route often follows a 14 hr 'day stop' in Newfoundland, which means that crews arrive back in the UK, often in crappy weather, at the lowest point of the fatigue cycle. Just because an accident hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean to say there is not one round the corner.
Engineering issues at base mean that aircraft very often suffer tech delays down route. Without any flex in the system, Captains often feel pressured to carry snags that they perhaps shouldn't. Whilst supervisors may have some role in preventing this, I have also seen some very experienced operators fall foul of this problem.
If you look at my post, you will find that I am not slagging off individuals in task plans, merely questioning the process as a whole. ( ie the effect rather than the cause ).
I have experience of both ends of the process and therefore understand the difficulties of both. My worry is that cost saving and aircraft availability are becoming more important than flight safety.
There are very few transaltlantic routes these days which dont involve a very punishing schedule of long days and short nights, which destroys circadian rythms. The sixth day of the route often follows a 14 hr 'day stop' in Newfoundland, which means that crews arrive back in the UK, often in crappy weather, at the lowest point of the fatigue cycle. Just because an accident hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean to say there is not one round the corner.
Engineering issues at base mean that aircraft very often suffer tech delays down route. Without any flex in the system, Captains often feel pressured to carry snags that they perhaps shouldn't. Whilst supervisors may have some role in preventing this, I have also seen some very experienced operators fall foul of this problem.
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Lardy
Everyone is under pressure, but there are several 'howlers' that regularly come out of the TP office, e.g. a aircraft tasked into an airfield at the weekend when it is shut, a 16hr Crew Duty Day when they are flying over 5 sectors.
Unfortunately, the majority of the transop writers are ex-aircrew, but one does have to question why they are ex?
Everyone is under pressure, but there are several 'howlers' that regularly come out of the TP office, e.g. a aircraft tasked into an airfield at the weekend when it is shut, a 16hr Crew Duty Day when they are flying over 5 sectors.
Unfortunately, the majority of the transop writers are ex-aircrew, but one does have to question why they are ex?
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Oh wow,
And not to mention being tasked into a runway made of pavlova, without an exemption from the airport authority, and being told by TP that "it should be ok", or being tasked into a US Navy base which was too short. When (before we even left home base) we pointed out that we would be 25 tons short of our req'd gas lift to get home, and that there is a hhuuggee international 20mins up the road which was more suitable, we were told "Navy BASE"! Imagine our shock when the wind req'd didn't appear and we were unable to lift the gas, so flew 20 mins to the international to refuel.
Then there is the cutting down of turn around times allocated to make a long crew duty day fit. REDUCING THE TURN AROUND TIMES ON PAPER DOESN'T ACTUALLY MEAN IT WILL TAKE LESS TIME!!!
I'm sure they dodge some bullets up there, and solve their share of problems, but some things will never work, and pretending something works when it doesn't isn't a solution.
And not to mention being tasked into a runway made of pavlova, without an exemption from the airport authority, and being told by TP that "it should be ok", or being tasked into a US Navy base which was too short. When (before we even left home base) we pointed out that we would be 25 tons short of our req'd gas lift to get home, and that there is a hhuuggee international 20mins up the road which was more suitable, we were told "Navy BASE"! Imagine our shock when the wind req'd didn't appear and we were unable to lift the gas, so flew 20 mins to the international to refuel.
Then there is the cutting down of turn around times allocated to make a long crew duty day fit. REDUCING THE TURN AROUND TIMES ON PAPER DOESN'T ACTUALLY MEAN IT WILL TAKE LESS TIME!!!
I'm sure they dodge some bullets up there, and solve their share of problems, but some things will never work, and pretending something works when it doesn't isn't a solution.
We were consistently trapped between the demands of the Engineers who wanted something like 90-120 minutes for a full turnround (why?) and all their infernal paperwork - and the task planners who NEVER allowed long enough for turnrounds, particularly on an already tight Crew Duty Day. E.g. the time allowed for turning round an aircraft full of grunts at Gander in the dead of night on the Calagary - Gander - Brize runs.....
No doubt that's been sorted nowadays?
Oink oink, flap, flap......
No doubt that's been sorted nowadays?
Oink oink, flap, flap......
but there's another issue...
Join Date: Jun 2004
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As a baby Ascoteer, I have no real gripes about Ascot Ops to speak of, but for those of you still in a position to be at their mercy, the ITOC now run a 2 day course to familiarise anyone who wants it with their day to day running and set up. For info, speak to ITOC Trg and Standards at Brize. I'll be attending a week monday! Maybe then I can answer the Q with some authority!
ps can we have more time off in nice, hot, sunny places please Ascot! I didn't join to 'see the world', but it would be nice to see more of it than an airport in the dark, a hotel room and the inside of ANOTHER Hooters!
ps can we have more time off in nice, hot, sunny places please Ascot! I didn't join to 'see the world', but it would be nice to see more of it than an airport in the dark, a hotel room and the inside of ANOTHER Hooters!
Join Date: Jul 2002
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My favourite:
We're in MPA, with the plan for us to flag Recife for extra fuel, then to ASI (ASI weather was unusually bad and VORTAC was offline for a few months). We had no freight for ASI so Captain suggests Recife, nightstop, Brize. The Hamster wheel starts turning in Ascot Ops...
They then inform us that the dip clears we had were'nt actually valid (thanks for telling us before we left Brize) so we can't go to Recife (no dancing girls then!!). The suggestion was MPA - Dakar,nightstop, Brize, with the added gem: we've looked at the short plan and you'll have no problems getting out of MPA.
Capt: Reheally. (Ace Venture stylee) Well whats the total fuel required? We may not be able to lift enough from MPA.
Ascot: Oh, don't worry we know the almighty Tristar's got a MTOW of 245T, you'll have no problems
Capt: Errm, have you conisdered the weather at MPA? QNH? Temp? Down here that can affect our MTOW significantly!
Ascot: Errm what do you mean, no, mummy - 'flrmmggbrm' (brain farts and he goes cross eyed at the thought of having to apply intelligence)
Capt: Fax us the plan and we'll have a look for you!
Ascot fella then sighs relief, smiles like a child thats been assured that Santa is real, pulls himself onto the sofa and puts his thumb in his mouth, giggling at all the tubby-custard Tinky-winky is getting all over his belly on TV.
Luckily the pressure was relatively high at my favourite a$$hole end of the planet, so we could just lift for Dakar.
It amazes me at times that there are aircrew working there, surely they must have an idea? Surely?????
CG
We're in MPA, with the plan for us to flag Recife for extra fuel, then to ASI (ASI weather was unusually bad and VORTAC was offline for a few months). We had no freight for ASI so Captain suggests Recife, nightstop, Brize. The Hamster wheel starts turning in Ascot Ops...
They then inform us that the dip clears we had were'nt actually valid (thanks for telling us before we left Brize) so we can't go to Recife (no dancing girls then!!). The suggestion was MPA - Dakar,nightstop, Brize, with the added gem: we've looked at the short plan and you'll have no problems getting out of MPA.
Capt: Reheally. (Ace Venture stylee) Well whats the total fuel required? We may not be able to lift enough from MPA.
Ascot: Oh, don't worry we know the almighty Tristar's got a MTOW of 245T, you'll have no problems
Capt: Errm, have you conisdered the weather at MPA? QNH? Temp? Down here that can affect our MTOW significantly!
Ascot: Errm what do you mean, no, mummy - 'flrmmggbrm' (brain farts and he goes cross eyed at the thought of having to apply intelligence)
Capt: Fax us the plan and we'll have a look for you!
Ascot fella then sighs relief, smiles like a child thats been assured that Santa is real, pulls himself onto the sofa and puts his thumb in his mouth, giggling at all the tubby-custard Tinky-winky is getting all over his belly on TV.
Luckily the pressure was relatively high at my favourite a$$hole end of the planet, so we could just lift for Dakar.
It amazes me at times that there are aircrew working there, surely they must have an idea? Surely?????
CG