Pilot: FAA or RAF
Short Blunt Shock
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All the usual fish bites, I see! I've never dipped a hook in the water and pulled it out with so many fish on it before - amazing!
If flying is your passion, it has to be RAF, I'm afraid. Let's compare - all figures from public websites, and are for offensive / operational aircraft only:
RAF:
114 Tornado GR4 / 4A(soon to be replaced )
91 Tornado F3 (by approx 230 Typhoon)
60 Harrier
13 Jaguar (not for much longer)
99 Hawk
5 Canberra
53 Hercules
23 Nimrod (soon to be reduced to 14 MR4)
17 VC10
8 Tristar
5 125
2 146
34 Chinook
22 Merlin
33 Puma
13 Sea King
3 Squirrel
TOTAL: 595
FAA:
25 Sea Harrier (going, going, gone!)
44 Merlin
65 Lynx
60 Sea King (most are junglies so technically not FAA)
err......thats it.
TOTAL:229 (204 after SHAR goes, all RW)
Figures may not be bang up to date - precise numbers for FAA seem difficult to find for some reason.
So, the RAF - Lots of different types, variety in jobs, no need to live on a f***ing ship, we will soon have ALL the fast jets forever (JCA will be 100% owned by RAF Strike Cmd, and loaned to the Navy to put on their quaint little (french built) boats). Opportunity on JCA fleet to fly off a ship, if for some unimaginable reason that appeals to you, without having to make it your life. And sex with women.
The Navy - err........helicopters........and that's it. Well, that and arrogance and an interminable superiority complex. Not to mention constant living in the past, having to live on a f**king ship and stupid, irritating, pointless 'traditions'. A smarter uniform, in fairness. Oh, and from time to time we might let them fly 'our' F-35s.
So, a clear choice. Rise Above The Rest!
16B
If flying is your passion, it has to be RAF, I'm afraid. Let's compare - all figures from public websites, and are for offensive / operational aircraft only:
RAF:
114 Tornado GR4 / 4A(soon to be replaced )
91 Tornado F3 (by approx 230 Typhoon)
60 Harrier
13 Jaguar (not for much longer)
99 Hawk
5 Canberra
53 Hercules
23 Nimrod (soon to be reduced to 14 MR4)
17 VC10
8 Tristar
5 125
2 146
34 Chinook
22 Merlin
33 Puma
13 Sea King
3 Squirrel
TOTAL: 595
FAA:
25 Sea Harrier (going, going, gone!)
44 Merlin
65 Lynx
60 Sea King (most are junglies so technically not FAA)
err......thats it.
TOTAL:229 (204 after SHAR goes, all RW)
Figures may not be bang up to date - precise numbers for FAA seem difficult to find for some reason.
So, the RAF - Lots of different types, variety in jobs, no need to live on a f***ing ship, we will soon have ALL the fast jets forever (JCA will be 100% owned by RAF Strike Cmd, and loaned to the Navy to put on their quaint little (french built) boats). Opportunity on JCA fleet to fly off a ship, if for some unimaginable reason that appeals to you, without having to make it your life. And sex with women.
The Navy - err........helicopters........and that's it. Well, that and arrogance and an interminable superiority complex. Not to mention constant living in the past, having to live on a f**king ship and stupid, irritating, pointless 'traditions'. A smarter uniform, in fairness. Oh, and from time to time we might let them fly 'our' F-35s.
So, a clear choice. Rise Above The Rest!
16B
Last edited by 16 blades; 22nd May 2005 at 04:41.
Short Blunt Shock
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The FAA have an admin & support structure in the Main RN that doesn't feature in their manpower strength. Self explanatory really.
Forwardassist,
If you knew how ugly I was, you'd know I'd never end up on any posters.......!
16B
Forwardassist,
If you knew how ugly I was, you'd know I'd never end up on any posters.......!
16B
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16B
"TOTAL:229 (204 after SHAR goes, all RW)"
Not quite true. You are forgetting that RAF 3 Sqdn is is re-equipping witht he Typhoon and RN 800 and 801 Sqds are reforming with ex RAF GR7/GR9's.
So not quite all RW
"TOTAL:229 (204 after SHAR goes, all RW)"
Not quite true. You are forgetting that RAF 3 Sqdn is is re-equipping witht he Typhoon and RN 800 and 801 Sqds are reforming with ex RAF GR7/GR9's.
So not quite all RW
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In this brave new world of RAB one should ask the question of ownership ie whose asset register are the aircraft on.
Put it this way and you realise that the Royal Navy do not own their Harriers (they 'belong' to an RAF TLB (STC) who lets the Royal Navy paint the aircraft and fly them). The RN will continue not to 'own' the GR7/9s when 800 and 801 move to the midLANDs.
The same can be said for the RN's Seak King Mk 4s, Lynx Mk7s and Gazelle AH1s (only the FAA could count the drumstick as an attack helicopter!) that are 'owned' by the Army (LAND TLB).
Similarly the Army 'owns' the Pumas, Merlins and Chinooks that have Royal Air Force markings on them!
Isn't life simple nowadays? - Remember 'Purple is just a deeper
shade of Green'.
Put it this way and you realise that the Royal Navy do not own their Harriers (they 'belong' to an RAF TLB (STC) who lets the Royal Navy paint the aircraft and fly them). The RN will continue not to 'own' the GR7/9s when 800 and 801 move to the midLANDs.
The same can be said for the RN's Seak King Mk 4s, Lynx Mk7s and Gazelle AH1s (only the FAA could count the drumstick as an attack helicopter!) that are 'owned' by the Army (LAND TLB).
Similarly the Army 'owns' the Pumas, Merlins and Chinooks that have Royal Air Force markings on them!
Isn't life simple nowadays? - Remember 'Purple is just a deeper
shade of Green'.
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unbelievable...
that such an obvious bite would get so many going. However in the unlikely event that this was anything such I think you managed to get the difference across perfectly 16B...
...only a crab would resort to scraping around for those stats like you did, deliberating over how many operational squirrels you have and getting flashed up on prune rather than going out and getting out amongst it.
Also, was there any need to stipulate that "sex with women" was a part the opportunities the junior service offered? Is this is an intentional ploy to appeal to socially awkward types who have difficulty relating to the opposite sex or is that just a co-incidence?
Does this work when they're not in ground floor rooms?
...only a crab would resort to scraping around for those stats like you did, deliberating over how many operational squirrels you have and getting flashed up on prune rather than going out and getting out amongst it.
Also, was there any need to stipulate that "sex with women" was a part the opportunities the junior service offered? Is this is an intentional ploy to appeal to socially awkward types who have difficulty relating to the opposite sex or is that just a co-incidence?
Does this work when they're not in ground floor rooms?
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Thanks to those of you who have replied with some bearing to the intentions of the topic. To the others of you, thanks are also in order.
This was not intended as bait to get an argument going, rather to see what actual differences there are between the two roles. It would seem the RAF have too much time on their hands so they can spend it moaning whilst the RN just get on with the job.
This was not intended as bait to get an argument going, rather to see what actual differences there are between the two roles. It would seem the RAF have too much time on their hands so they can spend it moaning whilst the RN just get on with the job.
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amb,
Your powers of perception are just what the RN need - sign up today!
prOOne, 16B and others,
It is the attitude of the pilot that counts not who "owns the a/c" (they are all owned by the MoD) and as has been proven over the years the RN have the better attitude (not unionised, do not need to stay in hotels etc). All RN aircrew are FAA whichever TLB "owns" the a/c incl the junglies.
16B's figures are all fine except that he needs to project them forward 10-15 years. My understanding after last summer's cuts is that the RAF FJ force will be down to something like 80 jets. If the RN are flying 20 odd of them then it seems to me that they will provide about 25% of the crews. I accept that there will be hundreds of useless Typhoons in storage - what Service has wasted Defence £Bs with a contract for a/c it does not need. Re the tanker fleet - I thought it was going out to charter with sponsored reserve crews?
Fly Navy!
Your powers of perception are just what the RN need - sign up today!
prOOne, 16B and others,
It is the attitude of the pilot that counts not who "owns the a/c" (they are all owned by the MoD) and as has been proven over the years the RN have the better attitude (not unionised, do not need to stay in hotels etc). All RN aircrew are FAA whichever TLB "owns" the a/c incl the junglies.
16B's figures are all fine except that he needs to project them forward 10-15 years. My understanding after last summer's cuts is that the RAF FJ force will be down to something like 80 jets. If the RN are flying 20 odd of them then it seems to me that they will provide about 25% of the crews. I accept that there will be hundreds of useless Typhoons in storage - what Service has wasted Defence £Bs with a contract for a/c it does not need. Re the tanker fleet - I thought it was going out to charter with sponsored reserve crews?
Fly Navy!
Bismark,
"Down to 80 jets?"
Afraid your "understanding" is a little way off, a deployable and sustainable force of 64 AG and 16 AD FJ needs rather more than 80 jets I think you'll find.
Suggest you do a little more research before offering any more totally inept and inaccurate advice to anyone.
"Down to 80 jets?"
Afraid your "understanding" is a little way off, a deployable and sustainable force of 64 AG and 16 AD FJ needs rather more than 80 jets I think you'll find.
Suggest you do a little more research before offering any more totally inept and inaccurate advice to anyone.
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Bismark
You miss the point - I wasn't commenting on the qaulity of the pilots of either cloth. More at the way that no-one can be sure what an individual Service is or is not anymore. Soon an RN Harrier pilot can spend his entire productive career under RAF command and an RAF SH pilot can spend his entire career within an Army organization (the JHC is - after all - subordinate to LAND). So we are neither organized as individual Services in peacetime (Within JFH RAF pilots will serve in 800 Sqn under a cdr who - in turn - will work for a gp capt reporting to 1Gp STC. The bounderies are blurring.) nor do we fight as individual Services in war (if we are ever allowed to call it that again) with members from all 3 Services working in all 5 components (6 if a JFAmphibC is established).
I wonder if the JFH will have 2 display ac next year one from 1(F), IV(AC) or 20(R) in RAF colours (that could be flown by a RN or RM pilot) and another from 800 (or later 801) in FAA colours (that could be flown by an RAF pilot). Or perhaps they will try the BAR trick when the entered F1 and have different paint schemes on each side of the ac? All very confusing.
Another piece of innacuracy - FSTA (tanker/transport) is planned to be a mix of RAF/contractor engineers (some of whom will be sponsored reserves) the aircrew (and any other flyers) will be RAF.
It is the attitude of the pilot that counts not who "owns the a/c" (they are all owned by the MoD) and as has been proven over the years the RN have the better attitude (not unionised, do not need to stay in hotels etc). All RN aircrew are FAA whichever TLB "owns" the a/c incl the junglies.
I wonder if the JFH will have 2 display ac next year one from 1(F), IV(AC) or 20(R) in RAF colours (that could be flown by a RN or RM pilot) and another from 800 (or later 801) in FAA colours (that could be flown by an RAF pilot). Or perhaps they will try the BAR trick when the entered F1 and have different paint schemes on each side of the ac? All very confusing.
Re the tanker fleet - I thought it was going out to charter with sponsored reserve crews?
Last edited by Climebear; 22nd May 2005 at 22:04.
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PrOOne,
Indeed I am out of date on the current Armed Forces (my main source is Defence Media, HCDC etc) but I fail to see why 16 deployable AD needs 230 Typhoon? Of course I am assuming that the AG a/c are JSF (who would risk Typhoon?).
Climbear,
You make some good points re Jointery which is why my point about attitude is so important. If I recall correctly the RN are the most deployable (ie they can deploy for more days per year than any of the other 2 Services) and the RAF the least. When I was in the RN used to deploy to Bosnia or at sea for 6-8 months but the RAF never more than 4 months (if that).
Fly Navy
Indeed I am out of date on the current Armed Forces (my main source is Defence Media, HCDC etc) but I fail to see why 16 deployable AD needs 230 Typhoon? Of course I am assuming that the AG a/c are JSF (who would risk Typhoon?).
Climbear,
You make some good points re Jointery which is why my point about attitude is so important. If I recall correctly the RN are the most deployable (ie they can deploy for more days per year than any of the other 2 Services) and the RAF the least. When I was in the RN used to deploy to Bosnia or at sea for 6-8 months but the RAF never more than 4 months (if that).
Fly Navy
Short Blunt Shock
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The point is that the FAA will never again fly fast jets under it's own command - all 'FAA' FJ assets and Sqns will report ultimately to the ONLY professional aviation Service - the RAF - as it should be.
Will FAA helos be taken under JHF command as well? (I profess no knowledge of this) - I would laugh my tits off if they were - then you will have nothing, except your little boats. What on earth would you have to brag about then? (not that you had anything to justify your superiority complex in the first place......)
Rise Above The Rest!
16B
Will FAA helos be taken under JHF command as well? (I profess no knowledge of this) - I would laugh my tits off if they were - then you will have nothing, except your little boats. What on earth would you have to brag about then? (not that you had anything to justify your superiority complex in the first place......)
Rise Above The Rest!
16B
the ONLY professional aviation Service - the RAF - as it should be.
Well done 16B tremendous, sadly I think you actually believe this stuff
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Bismark
Beware generalisations. I wouldn't mention that to the SH boys or an RAF Regt gunner (to name but a few). Plus the RAF harmony guidelines are just that guidelines (I know of some people that deployed from the Balkans direct to TELIC1 having just spent 6 months deployed) whereas; I understand that under TOPMAST the seperated service limits of the RN are limits. The RAF can - if they want - deploy as much as the next man. However, there is the morale component of fighting power (and retention) to add to the equation. As the RN appears to admit in Admiralty Paper 2/00 - 'The Future Navy':
I must admit my ignorance at not knowing the exact RN details of their harmony guidleines but - mathematically - the Army's guidlines of 6 months deployed followed by 18 at home (if they are followed) are the same proportionally to the RAF's 4 months deployed followed by 12 months at home (again... if they are followed).
Oh and by the way - my last deployment was just over 6 months long.
As for Jointery the requirement for:
is a Defence requirement and is irrespective of 'ownership', colour scheme of the aircraft, or the uniform of pilot.
The message should be clear. The only winners in this inter-Service in-fighting - 'my conditions of service are tougher than yours' etc - are the Treasury who will happily divide and rule and the expense of us all.
16 Blades
My understanding is that they will not (neither will the RAF\'s SAR aircraft) as the - non-jungly- FAA helos are not battlefeld helicopters but part of a ship's weapon system.
You make some good points re Jointery which is why my point about attitude is so important. If I recall correctly the RN are the most deployable (ie they can deploy for more days per year than any of the other 2 Services) and the RAF the least. When I was in the RN used to deploy to Bosnia or at sea for 6-8 months but the RAF never more than 4 months (if that).
harmony – we must develop a concept of separated service, ensuring that our personnel management system impartially balances the needs and aspirations of the individual, and his or her family, with the need to sustain operational capability.
Oh and by the way - my last deployment was just over 6 months long.
As for Jointery the requirement for:
a deployable and sustainable force of 64 AG and 16 AD FJ
The message should be clear. The only winners in this inter-Service in-fighting - 'my conditions of service are tougher than yours' etc - are the Treasury who will happily divide and rule and the expense of us all.
16 Blades
Will FAA helos be taken under JHF command as well?
Last edited by Climebear; 22nd May 2005 at 22:16.
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16B,
I thought the Harriers were part of "Joint Force Harrier" not the "RAF Harrier Force", much like JHC is "Joint Helicopter Command". I presume this means that the JHF and JHC will deploy under command of the Joint Commander surely?
My understanding from mates currently serving is that COTT/WITT can be commanded by the RN as well as RAF (best man for job).
I thought the Harriers were part of "Joint Force Harrier" not the "RAF Harrier Force", much like JHC is "Joint Helicopter Command". I presume this means that the JHF and JHC will deploy under command of the Joint Commander surely?
My understanding from mates currently serving is that COTT/WITT can be commanded by the RN as well as RAF (best man for job).
Short Blunt Shock
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JFH reports to RAF Strike Cmd - it is therefore an RAF asset. The 'senior' service no longer has any command and control over Harrier assets. I know it hurts your egos - just live with it.
Yet more bites! I'm gonna have to get another freezer - my current one is rapidly filling up with fish.....
The RAF is a service entirely dedicated to putting aircraft in the air. The FAA is a flying club for sailors that doesn't even have an offensive capability anymore. Simple, really.
Rise Above The Rest!
16B
Sorry just spilled my drink laughing at that one..
Well done 16B tremendous, sadly I think you actually believe this stuff
Well done 16B tremendous, sadly I think you actually believe this stuff
The RAF is a service entirely dedicated to putting aircraft in the air. The FAA is a flying club for sailors that doesn't even have an offensive capability anymore. Simple, really.
Rise Above The Rest!
16B