C5 crew run drugs

[Tourist]

What about the man who sold Winston Churchill the high grade cocain which kept him going through the war. Kill him too?

[16 blades]

Dear oh dear Tourist. I sincerely hope you are in fact just a bullsh!tting troll and not a member of HM Forces, with an attitude like that to drugs.

I hope somebody points the CDT team in your direction next time they visit.

I've always found it strange that the drugs alcohol and tobacco are legal and all the others illegal...what's the difference?

X-QUORK,

Neither alcohol nor tobacco are narcotic drugs. Nicotine isn't even an intoxicant. Their effects are almost always predictable, and neither will kill you first try, unless in vast quantities. Neither of them alter your perception of reality. Alcohol interferes with the transmission of 'messages' by neurotransmitters in your synapses - it does not change what the 'messages' are saying, as most (if not all) narcotic drugs do.

16B

[soddim]

There are some posters here who obviously need to see first hand the devastating effect of illegal drugs on individuals, families and the population who suffer the thefts by the addicts who need to feed their habits.

Yes, alcohol and tobacco also cause problems but neither are near as effective in ruining lives as heroin and crack cocaine, for example.

Those who supply often persuade individuals to try a drug and many dealers apply peer pressure to addict the weak. I cannot think of any mass murderer who has given more pain or suffering than a drug dealer - and the slow death that starts with a ruined and addicted lifestyle is like torture to the people it affects. Moreover, they do it for personal gain.

Those countries that use the mandatory death sentence have the right morals.

[Tourist]

16 B
I was not aware that thought crime had in fact been instigated yet in this country you prat, but if I am mistaken then I am surethe CDT people will tell me off for being double plus ungood.

Far more crime, death and trouble is caused by people under the influence of alcohol than all the illegal drugs put together.

soddim, you reinforce our points. The thefts are due to the illigality not the drugs.

[hobie]

I suspect it might open some eyes if you visited a typical Hospital A&E dept. on a Friday/Saturday/Sunday night and see the $$$$ that Doctors and Nurses have to put up with from drug and alcohol abusers ...... Pee'd on .... thrown up on ...... verbal and physical attacks etc ..... the whole lot of them are $$$$ $$$$$ in my view .....

[ACW418]

Tourist

Your facts are wrong. 80% of all petty crime is drug related which means most crime.

I do not think that we should lower our civilised standards in punishing crimes so I could not go along with torture despite having much sympathy with the views expressed. If we could get the politicians to leagalise the death penalty, where no doubt exists, then I would go along with that but I accept that it is again lowering our civilised standards. It is a lot cheaper than keeping the guilty in prisons. A read of Jeffery Archers diaries from when he was in prison might make Tourist sit up and think again.

The country (along with many others) is a lot worse because of drug taking and as a nation we are not doing enough to stop it.

As for the alcohol/tobacco argument it has a lot of merit but we are where we are on those substances and they are legal so it would be very difficult to stop. Ever tried making your workplace a non smoking area (in civvie street that is). Almost impossible even with democratic votes etc; the smokers claim it is affecting their human rights. Drug dealers and takers are using illegal substances and therefore do not have human righhts on drug issues.

ACW

[FJJP]

Gentlemen - rightly, this subject raises powerful and emotive feelings and comment amongst us all. Although there has been a bit of light banter at an acceptable level, it is a pity that personal abuse has crept in.

Can we please agree to differ and present personal points of view in a civilised manner?

Please?

FJJP

[Yeller_Gait]

Please everyone, just ignore anything and everything Tourist says. Eventually he will go away and bother some others on another thread.

Enough said

[X-QUORK]

16B

Thanks for pointing out that fags and booze are not narcotics, it's an interesting and important point that I hadn't fully considered. However, I'm sure you would agree that alcohol is a mind-altering drug in that it can have a dramatic effect on ones ability to make rational decisions. You also stated that fags and booze are unlikely to kill you unless taken in huge quantities, and the same could be said for the legally purchased "clean" drugs that I am making a case for.

It would be interesting to look up the statistics with regards A&E casualties on Friday and Saturday nights, I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority are related to alcohol rather than illegal drugs.

[QAR ASR]

Beagle, thanks for reminding me why I didn't join the airforce.

[BEagle]

And if your attitudes include any tolerance of illegal drug use, then thank you for staying away from the air force and allowing the rest of us to keep the armed forces clean.

[FJJP]

QAR ASR

What will be your attitude when alchohol and drugs testing become mandatory pre-flight [as they will surely do eventually]?

Would you be content flying with a Capt/FO with either in his system?

I am afraid I [genuinely] don't understand you comment - many of us see CDT as an affront to our personal integrity, but accept the need because of the shift towards the more ready acceptance of drug use in modern society. There is no place for them in the Armed Forces, hence the draconian rule - take drugs = out.

[jayteeto]

Alcohol..... Most of the people who condemn drugs are slightly older like me and, like me, agree on the summary execution of drug dealers. We can miss one very important point. That is the passage of time!!!! When was the last time you went out to a major city centre on a saturday night people?? Not to up-market joints, but to where the masses go. Things have changed from my days in the Bigg Market in Newcastle. I often visit Liverpool city centre for social and work reasons. Alcohol now causes a lot more mayhem than we remember, violence has escalated, especially amongst young women. The youngsters now see alcohol having the same effect as illegal drugs. They question and we just condemn their views. It is a fact that if we just act like old gits and whinge, it will have no effect. In this area, we see young (13 yrs +) heroin addicts who look like death, being verbally and physically abused by 10 year olds. Even though they see the effects, these 10 year olds still get hooked themselves and crime soars!! It sticks in my throat to say it, but decriminalisation might take the control out of the dealers hands. It might be worth a try, things couldn't get much worse in some inner cities. What do you think??
PS. Pre flight testing.... Why not, I've got nothing to hide...

[Tourist]

ACW 418
The crimes related to drugs are almost always due to its criminality, rather than because someone is under the influence. ie, someone is stealing, mugging etc to feed his habit because he cannot afford it otherwise. This is not true of alcohol. Most alcohol related crimes are due to its effect on the mind.

I reiterate, that I have not and would never use illegal drugs and I would not condone the use of any drug including alcohol whilst on Military duty, any more than I would like to fly with anyone who was and would be very happy to see mandatory testing for all drugs before flight etc, but I fail to see the difference between legal and illegal drugs. The arbitrary way alcohol is still legal and others arent is only down to historical whimsy and not any scientific reason.
The idea that the drug dealer is to blame for the addict is just another example of societys slide into a blame culture where nobody wants to take personal responsibility for their own actions such as taking drugs. If you take it as a grown adult, it is your own personal weakness and you must take the consequences.
Making drugs illegal is having absolutely no effect on stopping their use, it just criminalises those who do, and makes money for the drug dealers. This is an exact analogy of prohibition in the US, and we know how that ended; With alcohol legalised, and absolutely no slide into societal collapse as predicted by doomsayers over their.
Cheers Yeller

[soddim]

Tourist,

You are so wide of the mark you must be doing it on purpose!

The dealer is the one to go for because he is the main offender and if you take him out you get all his supplies off the street. He is also making money from his criminal activity and that, normally, is his sole motive. He is the mass-offender, who cares whether or not the user blames him?

If you seriously believe that by legalising hard drugs you can improve society, I hope you are never in a position of influence where you might achieve that. Whilst you might not stop the supply altogether, the less there is available and the more it costs, the less users there will be.

There is a huge difference in the harm to society caused by illegal drugs and that caused by legal drugs. Although addiction to tobacco is very difficult for some to kick, very few people who drink become so addicted that it ruins their lives. Heroin and crack cocaine, on the other hand, are so addictive that users would kill their own mother in many cases to get their fix. Crack cocaine addicts many people after only one use so the experimenters are instantly hooked.

I have been close to one drug-related military fast jet fatal mid-air and I was totally in favour of the long period of random drug testing that followed. Both alcohol and tobacco also impair aviators ability but not in such a devastating way.

I have also been close to families where a drug addict has torn them apart and it only got better with the suicide of the addict. I also have personal experience of the misery caused by alcohol addiction and, horrible though it was, on a scale of 10 it only merits 5 whereas the drug addiction gets the full 10.

[dmanton300]

The temptation to comment on what I see as a Police officer on a weekend is almost irrisistable, but somebody will only start berating me over speed cameras!

Let's just say that the majority of alcohol related stuff we see in is transitory stuff, usually with no directly traumatised victim and the offenders usually look extremely sheepish and sorry for themselves in the morning. It doesn't make their behaviour acceptable, but it does lend a perspective to the drugs side of the equation.

Unless it's possession the drugs related stuff is much more likely to have a direct victim (dealing, burglary, robbery, mugging, theft etc.) and that victim is far more likely to be affected long term by the crime he/she's been a victim of. Just my observations based on what I see week in week out. Oh yeah, I'm far more likely to know the drug related offender by his first name due to the number of times we've met!

Anyway, about these speed cameras. .

[Tourist]

Soddim,

If you remove one dealer, another will take his place in milliseconds. Its simple economics. The profit margin is so huge due to the illegality that it is inevitable.
As to the damage caused by each individual drug,
1. Most scientific studies agree that the most dangerous medical aspect to smoking Cannabis is caused by the tobacco it is smoked with.
2. Cocaine of medical grade as an RAF doctor told me many years ago "is not really that bad for you. Whilst it has some links to paranoia with overuse, and is damaging to the nasal membranes due to its traditional method of imbibing, in many ways its a very positive drug. The problem is that its illegal, therefore cut with horrible things to increase profit margin and you cannot aford it without leaving and getting a job in the city, or selling secrets to the Ruskies. Certainly no worse than alcohol"
3. Ecstasy, amphetamines, speed etc whilst not particularly good for you are no worse than a night on the town drinking booze, and whilst tabloid newspapers make a big deal about people dying on their first use, on closer inspection these stories are usually down to blinkered parents living in a dream world. Death is usually caused by tainted drugs or too much water being drunk due to the lack of knowledge about the dangers of too much water in your system.

Nobody pretends that heroin or crack are anything other than bad for you and hideously addictive, but the idea that the lower class drugs lead you to them would also suggest that cigarettes and booze will lead to the illegal drugs. The fact that they are illegal stops nobody taking them, just gets in the way of people who need help coming forward.



FACT Vastly more people die every year in the UK due to alcohol than illegal drugs.

FACT Vastly more families are broken up by alcohol than illegal drugs every year.

FACT Alcohol costs the NHS vastly more each year than illegal drugs.

FACT On a friday night all over the country, plod is out stopping endless brawls, glassings, wife beatings perpetrated by people on alcohol, not illegal drugs. Drug crime is generally (there will always be exeptions) involved with getting the drug due to its illegality, rather than perpetrated by people under the influence.

People seem to be under the impression that I am pro drug use. I am very anti drug use
I merely believe that we must be practical about life.
An amazing proportion of the youth of the UK take drugs on a daily if not weekly basis. Rather than sticking our heads in the sand, we must accept that it is impossible to stop the drug trade because their is such a demand.(No country in the history of Earth has ever managed to stop the use of mind altering drugs, no matter what draconian punishments are used, or even with the support of religious doctrine-in the Muslim world for example with the promise of eternal damnation.)

We should concentrate on getting the criminal element out of the system, thus destroying a huge proportion of the misery caused.

I also have had a reasonable amount of experience with drug abusers of all sorts, having been a bouncer in Edinburgh a long time ago, so trust me I am aware of the effects drugs including alcohol have. One thing I would say, however is that I was never scared at a rave, but the Grassmarket on a bad night after a Hibs/Hearts match with to much booze imbibed was frankly terrifying. To somehow suggest that people drunk on duty is in anyway less frightening than people stoned on duty shows a very small understanding of the situation

People will always take drugs. It is only possible to attempt to moderate and moniter and support.

[soddim]

Tourist,

I fail to see how legalising currently illegal drugs is going to help solve the problems caused by those who use them. If you increase the supply and availability, giving more repectability to these drugs in the process, ergo more will be used.

I have spent a lot of time in countries where alcohol was banned and, believe me, I was forced to consume less because availability was a problem.

In those same countries drug possession carried a mandatory death sentence. It should be no surprise that availability was a big problem to those who still tried to get hold of them.

Yes, the profits in dealing in illegal drugs in UK are considered so big as to be worth the risk - but just what do the dealers risk? A few years in a cushy jail. That needs to be sorted - they should risk death, just like their customers.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

It's all about supply and demand. If the demand is there..........

A large part of the solution is stopping people from taking drugs. Perhaps not saying "so no because we say so" and saying "they'll have these effects.......x,y, and z" coupled with teaching people respect (for themselves - and until they respect themselves they won't respect anyone else). Also actually enforcing the law - Class A dealers should be sent down for life.

The rate of drug use in the UK says one thing - the current approach isn't working. Whilst I'd be among the first to volunteer for drug dealer execution duties, it wouldn't do much to solve the problem.

I abhor drugs - but realise just saying "don't do them" is not going to be very useful these days.

I'll say it again - THE CURRENT APPROACH DOES NOT WORK, WE NEED ONE THAT DOES - even if many/most of us consider it unpaletable.

[BEagle]

Indonesia has the right idea:

Drugs

The possession of illegal drugs is a serious offence in Indonesia and those caught face lengthy prison sentences, usually after a protracted and expensive legal process. Even the possession of small amounts of drugs classified low in the UK such as marijuana can lead to prison sentences longer than four years. Convicted traffickers or users of hard drugs such as ecstasy or heroin face the death penalty in Indonesia.

So does Singapore:

Don’t get involved with drugs. Drug abuse carries the heaviest penalties. The death penalty is mandatory for some offences.

and China:

Possession of five kilos of cannabis resin, one kilo of heroin or 50g of cocaine can result in the death penalty being passed.

The UK needs to adopt a MUCH harsher approach to drug abusers, supplers and dealers.