RN Aircrew- Rejected!!
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There will always be a few specimens that either flunk the aptitudes than go on to be sky gods or ace the aptitudes but can't wipe their own @rse. However, this is not the norm and I'm sure that if you examine the trend over the years it implies that generally the ones who achieve a better aptitude score are less likely to fail flying trg at some point. With the lack of funds today, you need the best possible indication that someone who starts training will finish to the required standrad.
As has been discussed many times before, essentially you can teach anyone to fly; given enough time. BUT Less funds = less time = more risk of getting chopped, thus entry standrads MUST be raised.
It can't possibly make sense to do it any other way.
As has been discussed many times before, essentially you can teach anyone to fly; given enough time. BUT Less funds = less time = more risk of getting chopped, thus entry standrads MUST be raised.
It can't possibly make sense to do it any other way.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
One of you alluded to the fact that anyone can pass given enough time. Well the short answer is we don't give them eough time. We place increasingly high hurdles along the way.
At Nav school the process was quite simple. For the first 5 flights each was practiced in the sim twice. If they reached exercise 6 there was a surprise - only one sim. Then the flight itself involved a no notice diversion to a strange airfield. If they passed 6 they usually passed 7 and 8 as well. 9 was really a no-fail sortie at the end of basics.
Next was a switch to (F)J on the JP. No matter whether they were to be streamed FJ or ME they all had to pass this hurdle. Then on to advanced nav training. Even at the final nav check they could be chopped.
We had one wg cdr who bent the rules and let the guys have more than 2 stabs at each hurdle.
Once out of nav school the OCU, esp the F3, demanded a more or less straight line improvement on the grounds that guys who were slow learners would be cannon fodder when the S hit the F.
The aim of the game was to ensure the wasteage ooccurred at the cheapest part of the training pot.
At Nav school the process was quite simple. For the first 5 flights each was practiced in the sim twice. If they reached exercise 6 there was a surprise - only one sim. Then the flight itself involved a no notice diversion to a strange airfield. If they passed 6 they usually passed 7 and 8 as well. 9 was really a no-fail sortie at the end of basics.
Next was a switch to (F)J on the JP. No matter whether they were to be streamed FJ or ME they all had to pass this hurdle. Then on to advanced nav training. Even at the final nav check they could be chopped.
We had one wg cdr who bent the rules and let the guys have more than 2 stabs at each hurdle.
Once out of nav school the OCU, esp the F3, demanded a more or less straight line improvement on the grounds that guys who were slow learners would be cannon fodder when the S hit the F.
The aim of the game was to ensure the wasteage ooccurred at the cheapest part of the training pot.
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Tourist - If you don't like the system (and the general tone of your posts is quite disparaging) then either bu**er off out of it, or get some time in, find out what you are talking about and then change it from a position of responsibility and experience.
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Get some time in, hmm?
My isssue is that at the same time as we can't get enough people in through the door, we are raising the goal posts for no good reason. We are perfectly happy with the standard or people we currently have, so why change the system which brought us in. And don't tell me that todays modern a/c require it because its b@llocks. The playstation generation naturally have a head start with anything geeky already.
Another problem is that aviation experience and authority can often be mutually exclusive due to the nature of RN promotion.
Anyway, stick it up your @rse!
My isssue is that at the same time as we can't get enough people in through the door, we are raising the goal posts for no good reason. We are perfectly happy with the standard or people we currently have, so why change the system which brought us in. And don't tell me that todays modern a/c require it because its b@llocks. The playstation generation naturally have a head start with anything geeky already.
Another problem is that aviation experience and authority can often be mutually exclusive due to the nature of RN promotion.
Anyway, stick it up your @rse!
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Tourist,
Please maintain decorum and not get personal.
FYI the reason a dual pass is required is not raising the standard! This has been the case for a substantial length of time and was driven by high training failure wastage rates. When you have any sort of shortage you DO NOT lower standards, it is counter intuitive and DOES NOT get the square pegs in square holes.
Just because a single pass in pilot was right in the past it DOES NOT make it right now.
I think EF2020 should consider his options and make the right choice for him. Other Services have different criteria for selection which suit their requirements and the RN is not about to change.
Please maintain decorum and not get personal.
FYI the reason a dual pass is required is not raising the standard! This has been the case for a substantial length of time and was driven by high training failure wastage rates. When you have any sort of shortage you DO NOT lower standards, it is counter intuitive and DOES NOT get the square pegs in square holes.
Just because a single pass in pilot was right in the past it DOES NOT make it right now.
I think EF2020 should consider his options and make the right choice for him. Other Services have different criteria for selection which suit their requirements and the RN is not about to change.
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Aircrew of the forces should be well bred chaps of superior intelligence to the norm; we shouldn't be discussing a chap who has FAILED the preliminay tests.
Do the infantrymen go around moaning how they were refused entry to the Hussars, Dragoons or Lancers? No, if one has failed basic tests then one shuts one's mouth forthwith.
Aren't Burger King recruiting at present?
Do the infantrymen go around moaning how they were refused entry to the Hussars, Dragoons or Lancers? No, if one has failed basic tests then one shuts one's mouth forthwith.
Aren't Burger King recruiting at present?
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Si,
I say again, on my course and the ones around mine there was a very low failure rate indeed, and after consulting with some mates last night, an amazingly large percentage (100%) of us all failed Observer aptitude but we seem to get on alright. You say that it has been this way for a while, strangely enough we seem to have been short of new pilots for a while also. Coincidence?
I say again, on my course and the ones around mine there was a very low failure rate indeed, and after consulting with some mates last night, an amazingly large percentage (100%) of us all failed Observer aptitude but we seem to get on alright. You say that it has been this way for a while, strangely enough we seem to have been short of new pilots for a while also. Coincidence?
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Some of the posters in this thread are being total t***ers!!!
Give this guy a break and give him some constructive advice, or shut up and get back in your box!
This guy has passed pilot aptitude and should be encouraged to try again. Not the immature negative sh*t i've seen posted.
Any one who says otherwise in the words of Tourist can "Stick it up your arse"!!
WW
Give this guy a break and give him some constructive advice, or shut up and get back in your box!
This guy has passed pilot aptitude and should be encouraged to try again. Not the immature negative sh*t i've seen posted.
Any one who says otherwise in the words of Tourist can "Stick it up your arse"!!
WW
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Surely, if there was a requirement to pass 1st time (any of the aptitude tests) then the facility to repeat the tests would be removed. On that count I'd say that EF2020 should be given every encouragement to reassess his/her options and, if still determined to become a Service pilot, should reapply - regardless of his knockback. One caveat that I would add is that only EF2020 (and the AIB) know if his/her failure at Observer aptitude is the only reason that they have been discouraged from reapplying. I am aware of a number of individuals that have passed all aptitude tests, to a good standard, but do not have what it takes to be competitive for a job as a Service pilot.
EF2020. If you don't reapply then you will never know.
Whatever happens, give it your best shot. If you don't, then you will never succeed in this environment.
kipper
EF2020. If you don't reapply then you will never know.
Whatever happens, give it your best shot. If you don't, then you will never succeed in this environment.
kipper
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Si Clik,
Your problem understanding the flying training difficulties of others may be caused by (if I guess your identity correctly) the fact that according to an old instructor of yours you were a flying god. Us mere mortals however do face dificulties at certain points in the pipeline. These may only be at the apptitude stage due to that fallibility of the testing proceedure.
I do not suggest we lower training standards in any way, but to limit the entry to training unnecessarily shoots ourselves in the foot. Perhaps it would be worth accepting a higher wastage % in order to get more people out the end of the sausage machine.
Especially at a time when when we are so strapped that baby observers are all being given pilot grading on the offchance that they pass it, and chopped observers get another go!
Your problem understanding the flying training difficulties of others may be caused by (if I guess your identity correctly) the fact that according to an old instructor of yours you were a flying god. Us mere mortals however do face dificulties at certain points in the pipeline. These may only be at the apptitude stage due to that fallibility of the testing proceedure.
I do not suggest we lower training standards in any way, but to limit the entry to training unnecessarily shoots ourselves in the foot. Perhaps it would be worth accepting a higher wastage % in order to get more people out the end of the sausage machine.
Especially at a time when when we are so strapped that baby observers are all being given pilot grading on the offchance that they pass it, and chopped observers get another go!
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Tourist,
You are not correct in your information, the RN is not short of pilots, it has an abundance (currently in holdover, like the Air Force) of very average pilots; it needs above average pilots for fast jet training and observers. Observers are not all getting pilot grading, and ‘chopped’ observers are not routinely getting second chances. Higher wastage rates are expensive and can not be justified the aim should be to reduce wastage rates to make the system more efficient.
You are not correct in your information, the RN is not short of pilots, it has an abundance (currently in holdover, like the Air Force) of very average pilots; it needs above average pilots for fast jet training and observers. Observers are not all getting pilot grading, and ‘chopped’ observers are not routinely getting second chances. Higher wastage rates are expensive and can not be justified the aim should be to reduce wastage rates to make the system more efficient.
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ummm
MM,
RN is not short at the moment but I can guarantee that quite a few people above my (and I'll bet, your pay-scale) are currently beset by the problem of improving RN aircrew recruitment figures...
RN is not short at the moment but I can guarantee that quite a few people above my (and I'll bet, your pay-scale) are currently beset by the problem of improving RN aircrew recruitment figures...
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MM et al,
Sympathise and agree with your thrust on holds but be careful not to jump to conclusions.
The reasoning behind a P/O pass are born from a series of studies into performance of recruits and trainees through flying training. We must remember that this sort of thing never sits still and more work is required to tie FAT results to what we want as an input and output of training.
Needless to say I am hiding behind no false walls as most know where I work.
Additionally I am unable to quote further on EF2020 position due to my location. He can PM me if he likes.
Sympathise and agree with your thrust on holds but be careful not to jump to conclusions.
The reasoning behind a P/O pass are born from a series of studies into performance of recruits and trainees through flying training. We must remember that this sort of thing never sits still and more work is required to tie FAT results to what we want as an input and output of training.
Needless to say I am hiding behind no false walls as most know where I work.
Additionally I am unable to quote further on EF2020 position due to my location. He can PM me if he likes.
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Of course the simple solution is to call all the tests for pilot "the Pilot tests" and the tests for obs "the Observer tests".
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Sr Tourist 'when we are now so desperate that even the observers now get a go at pilot grading'! If i have misunderstood your sentiments then please accept my apologies but your posts do give the impression that because you are a pilot you are some kind of superior naval aviator.
I have to admit that as a baby pilot on 845 i was guilty of similar attitudes until i struck up a conversation with the IRI during my renewal. He was a former sea vixen observer and was not the least bit impressed by my slagging off and recommended that i go and fly the Lynx - which i duly did via the wasp. I can assure you that i flew with some great crewmen in both the Wx5 and the wasp but when it came to pure naval aviation warfighting a good obs is a real (standby for staff phrase) 'force multiplier'.
Go and fly the Lynx - it will do you the world of good - and you wont have to do the maps and charts!!
I don't know the intimate workings of the squadrons these days as i left some years ago at the end of my MCC, apparantly they even have girls at sea! However what is clear to me is that we are not attracting the numbers that we once did and therefore the sifting process is not as easy. Furthermore the equipment, procedures and roles of the aircraft are more complex - even the Mk4 has got gizzmos (but still not as fun as firing rockets in a Wx 5!!) and with more complex kit inevitable maybe the whole aptitude thing should just be pass or fail. This discussion would then not be relevant, there have always been those that failed the navy tests only to become a red arrow in the crabs. On 829 we had crewman who had started life as a stoker and next time i saw him was working for an airline, having been a sea harrier pilot in the interim!
Anyway i am a boring old sod so better go and change my colostomy bag, drink some CSB and ask the MEO if there's enough steam to set sail.
I have to admit that as a baby pilot on 845 i was guilty of similar attitudes until i struck up a conversation with the IRI during my renewal. He was a former sea vixen observer and was not the least bit impressed by my slagging off and recommended that i go and fly the Lynx - which i duly did via the wasp. I can assure you that i flew with some great crewmen in both the Wx5 and the wasp but when it came to pure naval aviation warfighting a good obs is a real (standby for staff phrase) 'force multiplier'.
Go and fly the Lynx - it will do you the world of good - and you wont have to do the maps and charts!!
I don't know the intimate workings of the squadrons these days as i left some years ago at the end of my MCC, apparantly they even have girls at sea! However what is clear to me is that we are not attracting the numbers that we once did and therefore the sifting process is not as easy. Furthermore the equipment, procedures and roles of the aircraft are more complex - even the Mk4 has got gizzmos (but still not as fun as firing rockets in a Wx 5!!) and with more complex kit inevitable maybe the whole aptitude thing should just be pass or fail. This discussion would then not be relevant, there have always been those that failed the navy tests only to become a red arrow in the crabs. On 829 we had crewman who had started life as a stoker and next time i saw him was working for an airline, having been a sea harrier pilot in the interim!
Anyway i am a boring old sod so better go and change my colostomy bag, drink some CSB and ask the MEO if there's enough steam to set sail.
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"By all means EF should reapply but if his interest in naval aviation is only as a pilot he will more than likely become one of those types that just bad mouths obs in the bar and wonders how much fuel they cost. If he really wants to be a naval aviator he should be determined to pass both and just get on with it."....
I can assure you that I am not a pretentious wannabe pilot who would do as you stated....I love civilian fying, and will hopefully love military too, but I am determined to pass for Observer, as in a lot of respects, I know how challenging an Observer's work can be, and if I was to be offered Observer- but not Pilot- of course I would take it up........
ef2020
I can assure you that I am not a pretentious wannabe pilot who would do as you stated....I love civilian fying, and will hopefully love military too, but I am determined to pass for Observer, as in a lot of respects, I know how challenging an Observer's work can be, and if I was to be offered Observer- but not Pilot- of course I would take it up........
ef2020
