Budget
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I hate to be a boring old tw@ (again) but the sooner u guys accept the fact that the 'defence industry' is there to provide jobs (and not kit) the easier u will sleep at night.
I say let's use the £400m to pay for some hare-brain study into why we need lots more studys into what is wrong with the way HMForces go about their business - like LEAN !!! After all, we could employ lots more civil servants that way.
PS If the front-line users (not maintainers) had any say in procurement then HMForces would collapse - because we would never accept anything.
I say let's use the £400m to pay for some hare-brain study into why we need lots more studys into what is wrong with the way HMForces go about their business - like LEAN !!! After all, we could employ lots more civil servants that way.
PS If the front-line users (not maintainers) had any say in procurement then HMForces would collapse - because we would never accept anything.
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I say let's use the £400m to pay for some hare-brain study into why we need lots more studys into what is wrong with the way HMForces go about their business - like LEAN !!!
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Bag Man
I think that industry is there to fund shareholder dividends, defence jobs are expendable.
TW
You appear to be talking theory, go read the Lyneham thread for practical application. If you pare down your resource to meet a standard task, you generally get shagged if you have to provide a surge capability for any length of time. Although I have to lean in your favour (god help me) re the procurement. Requirement writing is not an area that the MOD excels in, a coach and horses could be ridden through most URDs.
I think that industry is there to fund shareholder dividends, defence jobs are expendable.
TW
You appear to be talking theory, go read the Lyneham thread for practical application. If you pare down your resource to meet a standard task, you generally get shagged if you have to provide a surge capability for any length of time. Although I have to lean in your favour (god help me) re the procurement. Requirement writing is not an area that the MOD excels in, a coach and horses could be ridden through most URDs.
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Who out there actually believes that the prime contractors don't write the specs on behalf of the MoD?
We have to have a contract to write the contract you know - and put that contract out to tender.
We have to have a contract to write the contract you know - and put that contract out to tender.
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Engineer
Bag Man is right.
And bearing in mind his handle, I think you will find that he knows better than most about the Prime/MoD relationship....
If this did not happen, it would take to long to agree - Industry hold the experts and the knowledge of what can be done. The DLO and DPA are heavily reliant on this, since the user/operator can rarely decide (or understand) what they want....
Strek
Bag Man is right.
And bearing in mind his handle, I think you will find that he knows better than most about the Prime/MoD relationship....
If this did not happen, it would take to long to agree - Industry hold the experts and the knowledge of what can be done. The DLO and DPA are heavily reliant on this, since the user/operator can rarely decide (or understand) what they want....
Strek
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Shrek
Best I go and sign on then, they might ask for their money back.
Mind you having re-read the strand, I suppose technically I count as industry but I'm not a prime contractor. Other procurements that I've been involved in have had industry teams writing the spec but not taking part in the competition
It also depends on what you are procuring, I recall that anything over £100k had to be put out to competition unless there was an overwhelming reason not to. This makes sense if you are buying a platform. However, if you are procuring a box then if one of the competitors writes the spec and then wins the competition, you will be in for some serious parliamentary questions. If you do not compete the treasury and the NAO rodger you.
The best aircraft procurement model I have seen is when the DA writes the spec, the MOD competes it, with joint teams carrying out the assessment.
PS I have worked for both DLO and DPA in and out of uniform
Best I go and sign on then, they might ask for their money back.
Mind you having re-read the strand, I suppose technically I count as industry but I'm not a prime contractor. Other procurements that I've been involved in have had industry teams writing the spec but not taking part in the competition
It also depends on what you are procuring, I recall that anything over £100k had to be put out to competition unless there was an overwhelming reason not to. This makes sense if you are buying a platform. However, if you are procuring a box then if one of the competitors writes the spec and then wins the competition, you will be in for some serious parliamentary questions. If you do not compete the treasury and the NAO rodger you.
The best aircraft procurement model I have seen is when the DA writes the spec, the MOD competes it, with joint teams carrying out the assessment.
PS I have worked for both DLO and DPA in and out of uniform
Last edited by engineer(retard); 17th Mar 2005 at 15:41.
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e(r)
Still trying to get my head around the concept of paying shareholder dividends without a workforce doing some work!
NAO just had a go at MoD for creating capability gaps (e.g. getting rid of Jag). How do you think the gov will respond? By recinding their decision or by writing another verbose document that costs the taxpayer £ks?
Still trying to get my head around the concept of paying shareholder dividends without a workforce doing some work!
NAO just had a go at MoD for creating capability gaps (e.g. getting rid of Jag). How do you think the gov will respond? By recinding their decision or by writing another verbose document that costs the taxpayer £ks?
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Has anyone else noticed the strategic shift from "Defence cutbacks to obtain kit with much larger force multiplier, although same projected force", to the new "We are cutting capability as we are now going through a period of capability drawdown" when politicians are interviewed?
Very worrying.
By the way, Quick question about NEC. Are we leaning towards american networked asset protocols or a more european-compatible protocol?
Very worrying.
By the way, Quick question about NEC. Are we leaning towards american networked asset protocols or a more european-compatible protocol?
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Bag man
BAeS and WHL drop the workforce fairly tout suite as soon as the orders slow down but they are not short of contracts. If it comes to a decision between profit margins and maintaining the work force the shareholders win every time. If the work can be outsourced cheaper then it generally is if they can get away with it.
regards
retard
BAeS and WHL drop the workforce fairly tout suite as soon as the orders slow down but they are not short of contracts. If it comes to a decision between profit margins and maintaining the work force the shareholders win every time. If the work can be outsourced cheaper then it generally is if they can get away with it.
regards
retard
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rafloo
Thanks for that well thought out, logical, well presented argument to counter my 'george'. I'm sure you have everybody sitting on the edge of their seats.
e(r)
Outsourcing still provides jobs somewhere - I just hope its in the UK and not in France or Italy.
Ou e le papier?
Thanks for that well thought out, logical, well presented argument to counter my 'george'. I'm sure you have everybody sitting on the edge of their seats.
e(r)
Outsourcing still provides jobs somewhere - I just hope its in the UK and not in France or Italy.
Ou e le papier?
Why not France?
They have just launched their equivalent of the T45, ours are still being moved around the country in bits.
They have Rafale and it has been flying for years unlike Typhoon.
They have Nuclear powered Aircraft Carriers (where are ours? and they built the Queen Mary, no shipyard big enough in the UK.
If we left it to them and kept some of our British companies out of it, we probably wouldn't be in such a state with our procurement!
They have just launched their equivalent of the T45, ours are still being moved around the country in bits.
They have Rafale and it has been flying for years unlike Typhoon.
They have Nuclear powered Aircraft Carriers (where are ours? and they built the Queen Mary, no shipyard big enough in the UK.
If we left it to them and kept some of our British companies out of it, we probably wouldn't be in such a state with our procurement!
Yes, but....
Rafale is far less capable than Typhoon and they have had no end of problems with Charles de Gaulle to the extent that the general opinion of the frog in the street is that the vessel is cursed!
The QM2 has been having lots of problems with her podded drives (although I can't really blame that on the French...
)
Rafale is far less capable than Typhoon and they have had no end of problems with Charles de Gaulle to the extent that the general opinion of the frog in the street is that the vessel is cursed!
The QM2 has been having lots of problems with her podded drives (although I can't really blame that on the French...
)
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Yeah, imagine letting our Navigators loose on one of those bad boys. As well as the fact that we couldn't afford one, don't have a dockyard clever enough to make one, don't have a dockyard big enough to put one in, and coupled with the fact that there is an international incident everytime an SSN goes alongside in Gib, the chances of the tree huggers ever allowing us to operate a CVSN are remote.