Mod Dii
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
From: UK
DII is the new MoD IT infrastructure project.
Obviously EDS undercut everyone (again!!!) and will (as usual) come in late, over budget and under specification.
We were at DPA the other week and asked they didn't keep records for supplier performance - short answer YES. Does that have any bearing on who gets contracts? - Short answer NO.
However, I did read that EDS had been pre-warned that, if they got the contract, they would be subject to horrendous penalty clauses if they screwed up. How often have we heard that? However, in this case EDS are not the only game in town. Even Micosoft themselves now play in this game and could easily take over the contract if the penalty clauses forced EDS out of business. There would be few tears shed throughout the public sector if that happened.
Obviously EDS undercut everyone (again!!!) and will (as usual) come in late, over budget and under specification.
We were at DPA the other week and asked they didn't keep records for supplier performance - short answer YES. Does that have any bearing on who gets contracts? - Short answer NO.
However, I did read that EDS had been pre-warned that, if they got the contract, they would be subject to horrendous penalty clauses if they screwed up. How often have we heard that? However, in this case EDS are not the only game in town. Even Micosoft themselves now play in this game and could easily take over the contract if the penalty clauses forced EDS out of business. There would be few tears shed throughout the public sector if that happened.
Last edited by SpotterFC; 2nd March 2005 at 21:29.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
From: Beside the beach
Sharon - just registered in the last 2 days? No chance of you being a phishing Journo then!
Get a life.
Those close to the project know that EDS have had a significant turnaround process ongoing in the UK to right previous wrongs and most projects are showing the benefits due to new blood at the UK level.
..and the competition, in the shape of BT et al were lamentable. Look at the Defence directory "powered" by BT for an example of a simple task badly managed - it's cr@p.
Good for EDS, I say, as will anyone who has even a rudimentary knowledge of the defence IT industrial scene.
Get a life.
Those close to the project know that EDS have had a significant turnaround process ongoing in the UK to right previous wrongs and most projects are showing the benefits due to new blood at the UK level.
..and the competition, in the shape of BT et al were lamentable. Look at the Defence directory "powered" by BT for an example of a simple task badly managed - it's cr@p.
Good for EDS, I say, as will anyone who has even a rudimentary knowledge of the defence IT industrial scene.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: East Anglia
Hey Christopher Robin - I am not a journalist, I am someone who will depend on this system. And am therefore concerned that the company that can't get the IR / DWP / CSA computer systems to work will now be in charge of the IT that runs us - the Armed Forces. Am guessing you are not serving our you would have felt the impact of not being paid when the Pay System failed. Wonder who runs that.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
From: Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh
DII in daily use in MOD - couldn't say if it was on time or budget but I can tell you it works and is pretty damn good. I can go from commercial internet to TS on one screen and keyboard at the touch of a button. Speed and other functionality is pretty good; oh and I can get TV as well through the same system. Non subject really.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
From: UK
CR
What colour are the clouds on your planet?
Look at the state of the F6000 application for another one that was managed superbly
See here: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20041111.html
and here:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20041118.html
EDS bid low, consistently underestimate the work required and then dump crap kit on the people that need it. It will take more than a management restructuring to get rid of the bad taste that this company has left in many peoples mouths over the years. Sadly few organisations have ever had the bottle to sack them.
Impiger - what you are using is DII Current or DII Convergent - Not DII Future which is supposed to bring the whole thing together from foxhole to supply depot, see here:
http://www.mod.uk/dcsa/organisations...iiforeword.htm
Interesting that the system will need a massive WAN, but this is specifically excluded from the contract. Another massive success for Smart Procurement.
What colour are the clouds on your planet?
Look at the state of the F6000 application for another one that was managed superbly
See here: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20041111.html
and here:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20041118.html
EDS bid low, consistently underestimate the work required and then dump crap kit on the people that need it. It will take more than a management restructuring to get rid of the bad taste that this company has left in many peoples mouths over the years. Sadly few organisations have ever had the bottle to sack them.
Impiger - what you are using is DII Current or DII Convergent - Not DII Future which is supposed to bring the whole thing together from foxhole to supply depot, see here:
http://www.mod.uk/dcsa/organisations...iiforeword.htm
Interesting that the system will need a massive WAN, but this is specifically excluded from the contract. Another massive success for Smart Procurement.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,311
Likes: 365
From: uk
Spotter said,
"We were at DPA the other week and asked they didn't keep records for supplier performance - short answer YES. Does that have any bearing on who gets contracts? - Short answer NO".
Unfortunately, this is true. Project Managers are no longer permitted to "deselect" companies who don't perform / overcharge / double bill and generally rip the MoD off. Softly Softly is the name of the game and if you don't play, or are in any way robust with a contractor, you can forget your "performance" related bonus and look forward to a damning annual report.
And,
"EDS bid low, consistently underestimate the work required and then dump crap kit on the people that need it".
I'd say it is equally likely that the Customer has not stated the requirement properly, nor DPA let even a short risk reduction contract to scope the work. And, the same Customer is responsible for laying down the acceptance criteria. Few realise they can say to the PM, "No, we don't accept it" (into service). That most never manage acceptance more than once means they never get the opportunity to learn from their mistakes.
Companies are increasingly taking advantage of this gross lack of nous in the MoD. Seldom illegally, but just little things which are advantageous to them or transfer risk to the MoD - often without the inexperienced MoD staff realising the implications until it's too late. The good company man will spot the inexperienced MoD guy a mile off, cultivate him, and earn a fortune quite legitimately. The company front man is NEVER inexperienced.
The bottom line? Companies don't try it on if there is an experienced MoD project manager who is prepared to be robust. However, as these criteria fly in the face of DPA policy, I'm afraid things will get worse before they improve.
Given this, is "MoD" and "Intelligent Customer" not a contradiction in terms?
"We were at DPA the other week and asked they didn't keep records for supplier performance - short answer YES. Does that have any bearing on who gets contracts? - Short answer NO".
Unfortunately, this is true. Project Managers are no longer permitted to "deselect" companies who don't perform / overcharge / double bill and generally rip the MoD off. Softly Softly is the name of the game and if you don't play, or are in any way robust with a contractor, you can forget your "performance" related bonus and look forward to a damning annual report.
And,
"EDS bid low, consistently underestimate the work required and then dump crap kit on the people that need it".
I'd say it is equally likely that the Customer has not stated the requirement properly, nor DPA let even a short risk reduction contract to scope the work. And, the same Customer is responsible for laying down the acceptance criteria. Few realise they can say to the PM, "No, we don't accept it" (into service). That most never manage acceptance more than once means they never get the opportunity to learn from their mistakes.
Companies are increasingly taking advantage of this gross lack of nous in the MoD. Seldom illegally, but just little things which are advantageous to them or transfer risk to the MoD - often without the inexperienced MoD staff realising the implications until it's too late. The good company man will spot the inexperienced MoD guy a mile off, cultivate him, and earn a fortune quite legitimately. The company front man is NEVER inexperienced.
The bottom line? Companies don't try it on if there is an experienced MoD project manager who is prepared to be robust. However, as these criteria fly in the face of DPA policy, I'm afraid things will get worse before they improve.
Given this, is "MoD" and "Intelligent Customer" not a contradiction in terms?
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,034
Likes: 8
From: The Road to Nowhere
SpotterFC makes one of his excellent observations, albeit a bit of a throwaway line at the end of his last post.
There is a fundamental problem with procurement of the hardware and software on the desk when the same organisation providing the 'service' is not also wholly responsible for the network.
The guys at STC (shortly moving to Scampton?!) are fighting a losing battle with faults on CCIS when they do not own the network, and have to go to another (non-mil) organisation about problems with LDCN/SLI. Will this change under DII? Doubt it.
STH
There is a fundamental problem with procurement of the hardware and software on the desk when the same organisation providing the 'service' is not also wholly responsible for the network.
The guys at STC (shortly moving to Scampton?!) are fighting a losing battle with faults on CCIS when they do not own the network, and have to go to another (non-mil) organisation about problems with LDCN/SLI. Will this change under DII? Doubt it.
STH
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 675
Likes: 0
From: Racedo blows goats
Second what Tcu has said (this is becoming a habit)
However, not only are the user requirements vague and woolly, which leads to woolly and vague acceptance criteria that you can drive a coach and horses through. You can also bet your bottom dollar that at some stage during the project the requirements will change.
These changes are usually driven either a better educated customer community as the project has matured, or the world has changed since original conception and the system will need to be modified to meet this new set of requirements.
Once you re-open a contract, all bets with regard to time, cost and performance are off. Industry has the opportunity to recoup it's losses due to an an undersized initial bid by charging MOD for the loss leader they will have put into the initial bid, dilute specifications that they cannot meet, and lower the barriers that they have to jump for acceptance. Generally, at this stage too much money has been sunk to walk away, and MOD has lost the competition stick to beat industry with.
On large projects, if industry meets a strong PM it will work around him, either through management or the customer community. If the problem is big enough they go to ministers and the PM is beaten to death by his own side.
Given civil service pay, I'm not sure that they would be sufficiently motivated to get smacked very often. Most of this forum would not get out of bed for their wages.
However, not only are the user requirements vague and woolly, which leads to woolly and vague acceptance criteria that you can drive a coach and horses through. You can also bet your bottom dollar that at some stage during the project the requirements will change.
These changes are usually driven either a better educated customer community as the project has matured, or the world has changed since original conception and the system will need to be modified to meet this new set of requirements.
Once you re-open a contract, all bets with regard to time, cost and performance are off. Industry has the opportunity to recoup it's losses due to an an undersized initial bid by charging MOD for the loss leader they will have put into the initial bid, dilute specifications that they cannot meet, and lower the barriers that they have to jump for acceptance. Generally, at this stage too much money has been sunk to walk away, and MOD has lost the competition stick to beat industry with.
On large projects, if industry meets a strong PM it will work around him, either through management or the customer community. If the problem is big enough they go to ministers and the PM is beaten to death by his own side.
Given civil service pay, I'm not sure that they would be sufficiently motivated to get smacked very often. Most of this forum would not get out of bed for their wages.
