NATO outdated
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NATO outdated
Independent: Nato is outdated, says Schröder
By Stephen Castle in Brussels
14 February 2005
Gerhard Schröder, the German Chancellor, has soured carefully choreographed efforts to heal transatlantic wounds by calling for a drastic overhaul of Nato and a bigger voice for Europe, just as George Bush prepares to visit Brussels.
Mr Schröder released a speech saying that Nato risked becoming outdated and was "no longer the primary venue where transatlantic partners discuss and co-ordinate strategies". The text proposed setting up a commission to propose improvements by the start of next year, and said "dialogue between the EU and the US neither reflects Europe's growing weight nor corresponds with new requirements of trans-atlantic co-operation".
The US Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, has said: "Nato has a great deal of energy and vitality. I believe they are undertaking the kinds of reforms to bring the institution into the 21st century. The place to discuss transatlantic issues clearly is Nato."
By Stephen Castle in Brussels
14 February 2005
Gerhard Schröder, the German Chancellor, has soured carefully choreographed efforts to heal transatlantic wounds by calling for a drastic overhaul of Nato and a bigger voice for Europe, just as George Bush prepares to visit Brussels.
Mr Schröder released a speech saying that Nato risked becoming outdated and was "no longer the primary venue where transatlantic partners discuss and co-ordinate strategies". The text proposed setting up a commission to propose improvements by the start of next year, and said "dialogue between the EU and the US neither reflects Europe's growing weight nor corresponds with new requirements of trans-atlantic co-operation".
The US Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, has said: "Nato has a great deal of energy and vitality. I believe they are undertaking the kinds of reforms to bring the institution into the 21st century. The place to discuss transatlantic issues clearly is Nato."
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NATO Transformation
Clearly Herr Schroder hasn't participated in the long discussions over NATO trransformation in to being a security, rather than a defensive, alliance. Who would have thought - even 5 years ago - that German troops would be serving in Afghanistan - a stone's throw away from China? Or German FPBs on CT patrols in the STROG? Moreover, the NATO principle of State Equality means that voting is heavily weighted in the favour of the European side of the ditch.
Possibly he has been quoted out of context, after all, we accuse the media of mis-representing the Services.
Possibly he has been quoted out of context, after all, we accuse the media of mis-representing the Services.
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What Don Rummy actually said was: 'this is a bit like Wagner - sounds worse than it really is'
Schroeder's speech was delivered by the German Defence Minister (because Schroeder was indisposed) at a security conference in Munich. The Def Min was clearly uncomfortable with the words.
German government have been back peddaling ever since saying this was a statement of fact/reality not their view on what NATO should be - personally I think the cheese eating surrender monkies put them up to it!
Schroeder's speech was delivered by the German Defence Minister (because Schroeder was indisposed) at a security conference in Munich. The Def Min was clearly uncomfortable with the words.
German government have been back peddaling ever since saying this was a statement of fact/reality not their view on what NATO should be - personally I think the cheese eating surrender monkies put them up to it!
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Munchen Summit?
Presumably this is the annual defence ministers free-thinking bean-fest im Deutchland? Designed to compliment the World Economic Forum in Davros by allowing alternative security issues to be discussed, it rarely features in open reporting. It is nothing more than self-congratulatory capitalist clap-trap (like Davros).
CC
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Cambridge Crash - so capitalist NATO should be wound up then, removing the deterent to your communist friends, ready for the time their power and ambition of world domination is ressurrected?
Er, What "communist friends" would they be that we are 'deterring' then?
Of course NATO is capitalist, we live in a capitalist market economy after all and it is the structure we put in place to ensure we remained that way. While the threat may have gone I do not believe that NATO is redundant, it has a different set of threats to face now and has more of a place as a European-North American security forum than straight forward territorial defence.
REDs under the bed eh FJJP?
Of course NATO is capitalist, we live in a capitalist market economy after all and it is the structure we put in place to ensure we remained that way. While the threat may have gone I do not believe that NATO is redundant, it has a different set of threats to face now and has more of a place as a European-North American security forum than straight forward territorial defence.
REDs under the bed eh FJJP?
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The conference is called Vehrkunde. It is annual. It is not Defence Ministers - although some do go. It is supposedly free thinking - but Ministers or officials of any persuasion can't be that in a reported forum. It has c@ckall to do with or in common with Davros.
The conference is called Vehrkunde. It is annual. It is not Defence Ministers - although some do go. It is supposedly free thinking - but Ministers or officials of any persuasion can't be that in a reported forum. It has c@ckall to do with or in common with Davros.
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Binary World?
We no longer live in a binary world of Capitalism and Communism - why does responders still hark back to the bad old days and assume that the opposite of Capitalism is Communism? What about progressive social democracy as a pragmatic model - as practicedby Sweden or Finland (see Saturday's Torygraph for an interesting article)
CambridgeCrash,
Sweden and Finland are both Capitalist market economies, the only difference between them and the UK is the amount of tax that is deemed acceptable, they do not represent an alternative or a third or middle way.
They are facing huge problems over funding their social programmes, as are the Germans, as their populations age and live longer.
Sweden and Finland are both Capitalist market economies, the only difference between them and the UK is the amount of tax that is deemed acceptable, they do not represent an alternative or a third or middle way.
They are facing huge problems over funding their social programmes, as are the Germans, as their populations age and live longer.
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Not so long ago street interviews in Moscow revealed that many people were hankering after the 'good old days' of Communist rule, where they were much better off with their State-run lives. Freedom and Capitalism, they had found, did not put food in their bellies.
Many, too, expressed dismay at the loss of National 'prestige'. There were a number of politicians who started making noises towards the restoration of the old Communist-style rule - with all the trappings of a world class military power.
No, I don't expect the Communist Block to be resurrected in the form that it enjoyed at the height of the Cold War. However, who knows what could happen if the hawks gained control of Russia; it could be that treaties of co-operation evolve amongst many of the old parts of the Soviet Union - who knows.
It would be a mistake to write off the old Communist world as totally dead in the water.
That said, maybe the sarcasm was a touch too subtle...
Many, too, expressed dismay at the loss of National 'prestige'. There were a number of politicians who started making noises towards the restoration of the old Communist-style rule - with all the trappings of a world class military power.
No, I don't expect the Communist Block to be resurrected in the form that it enjoyed at the height of the Cold War. However, who knows what could happen if the hawks gained control of Russia; it could be that treaties of co-operation evolve amongst many of the old parts of the Soviet Union - who knows.
It would be a mistake to write off the old Communist world as totally dead in the water.
That said, maybe the sarcasm was a touch too subtle...
FJJP,
They may well hanker for what some old folk perceive as the good old days but NOONE really desires a return to a repressive dictatorship. Do they REALLY long for that old atmosphere of fear, knocks on the door at the dead of night, relatives being dragged off and “disappeared” for dissent or expressing free will, imprisonment within your own country, economic depravation and being ruled by a privileged elite in the name of “the dictatorship of the people.”
A decade or two of exposure to the consumer culture of the free world will ensure those days never return.
However, while not expecting ever to see a communist return in Russia your urge for caution is not entirely displaced. We forget at our peril the hundreds of years prior to November 1917 that have imbued Russia with an autocratic expansionist history.
I’m sure Estonia and Lithuania didn’t call on NATO Air Defence cover just for fun.
I still think embracing them in a wider Europe is the best way to ensure peace rather than confronting them, they are still a nuclear super power even if the rest of their economy renders them a virtual third world nuclear super power. I certainly wouldn’t go ditching Trident just yet.
They may well hanker for what some old folk perceive as the good old days but NOONE really desires a return to a repressive dictatorship. Do they REALLY long for that old atmosphere of fear, knocks on the door at the dead of night, relatives being dragged off and “disappeared” for dissent or expressing free will, imprisonment within your own country, economic depravation and being ruled by a privileged elite in the name of “the dictatorship of the people.”
A decade or two of exposure to the consumer culture of the free world will ensure those days never return.
However, while not expecting ever to see a communist return in Russia your urge for caution is not entirely displaced. We forget at our peril the hundreds of years prior to November 1917 that have imbued Russia with an autocratic expansionist history.
I’m sure Estonia and Lithuania didn’t call on NATO Air Defence cover just for fun.
I still think embracing them in a wider Europe is the best way to ensure peace rather than confronting them, they are still a nuclear super power even if the rest of their economy renders them a virtual third world nuclear super power. I certainly wouldn’t go ditching Trident just yet.
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who knows what could happen if the hawks gained control of Russia
Crash, 'progressive socialism' is simply a product of the so-called 'third way', which is largely identical to old-school socialism, except hidden behind a barrage of media control, lies, spin an bullsh1t. Sound familiar?
Schroeder has revealed his true colours here - it is interesting to note that the German govt is trying to rapidly back-pedal on his speech. The only 'increased weight' that Europe has is the ever-increasing burden of its disastrous socio-economic policy, and the 'weight' of the masses of unemployed in the euro-zone.
With Neo-Nazi-ism on the rise, and Russia's return to the 'old ways', as well as the current global situation, I would say NATO is now more relevant than ever.
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The Germans and French have a lot to gain from belittling NATO because a weakened NATO gives credence to the Euro-enthusiasts' claims that it was the Common Market/EU who assured peace in Europe (north of the Balkans) since WW2.
Of course, it was nothing of the kind - NATO provided the safe environment in which Western European nations could learn to trust each other and, where necessary, grow into properly functioning democracies. They could then start to remove trade barriers and reduce protectionism. The EU, militarily, is a paper tiger, and a particularly damp one at that! Concerns about the way in which Russia and its allies might move in the future are well justified, in my opinion.
So, as long as a potential threat remains, NATO must remain in being. But it's becoming increasingly hard to sell that to our people when there's no obvious bogey man to point at.
Of course, it was nothing of the kind - NATO provided the safe environment in which Western European nations could learn to trust each other and, where necessary, grow into properly functioning democracies. They could then start to remove trade barriers and reduce protectionism. The EU, militarily, is a paper tiger, and a particularly damp one at that! Concerns about the way in which Russia and its allies might move in the future are well justified, in my opinion.
So, as long as a potential threat remains, NATO must remain in being. But it's becoming increasingly hard to sell that to our people when there's no obvious bogey man to point at.
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Bunker Mentality is accurate in his assessment that the Franco-German axis is trying to weaken NATO in favour of the Euro-enthusiast. Germany is increasingly flexing its muscles on the international military stage, more and more trying to shake off the post war perceptions and restrictions. It is becoming more nationalistic along French lines. I also believe that Germany is allowing itself to be dragged along by the French in their anti-American agenda.
When France withdrew from NATO and kicked out the NATO HQ from Fornbeau, the cut should have been clean. But no, NATO got a fright and was scared that they would have no input into French future intentions [considering also that they were a nuclear power]. Hence we have the outrageous situation where all NATO documents are dual language [French/English] and NATO-OTAN is plastered all over the NATO AWACS aircraft.
The problem is, that as NATO is sabotaged by the new alignment and the increasing moves towards a Euro Army, leaves the joint politico-military situation in a confused state. Confusion = weakness, a weakness we should not tolerate given the international uncertainty that exists today.
When France withdrew from NATO and kicked out the NATO HQ from Fornbeau, the cut should have been clean. But no, NATO got a fright and was scared that they would have no input into French future intentions [considering also that they were a nuclear power]. Hence we have the outrageous situation where all NATO documents are dual language [French/English] and NATO-OTAN is plastered all over the NATO AWACS aircraft.
The problem is, that as NATO is sabotaged by the new alignment and the increasing moves towards a Euro Army, leaves the joint politico-military situation in a confused state. Confusion = weakness, a weakness we should not tolerate given the international uncertainty that exists today.
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The fact is NATO DOES NOT WORK.........
I flew NATA AWACS during GW1, and I can tell you, it was the closest I ever came to being killed in an aircraft! Not by enemy action, but from the pathetic bickering that goes on throughout the whole aircraft, front to back.
During Bosnia, only certain elements of NATO could/would participate and only on certain days!
Things got even worse during Kosova, and where the hell were NATO during Afghanistan and GW2??
Sorry Chaps, NATO (AWACS at least) is a bl00dy joke! Its an excuse for a 'air power'
Sorry, switches back to safe and I'm lying down again!!
Kind regards to all
TSM
I flew NATA AWACS during GW1, and I can tell you, it was the closest I ever came to being killed in an aircraft! Not by enemy action, but from the pathetic bickering that goes on throughout the whole aircraft, front to back.
During Bosnia, only certain elements of NATO could/would participate and only on certain days!
Things got even worse during Kosova, and where the hell were NATO during Afghanistan and GW2??
Sorry Chaps, NATO (AWACS at least) is a bl00dy joke! Its an excuse for a 'air power'
Sorry, switches back to safe and I'm lying down again!!
Kind regards to all
TSM
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Swingeing Monkey
Presumably you mean Kosovo (NATO does not take action against a legal persona)? In what respect? Converstion of continental armies from territorial defence to exped ops and CRC (which has required changes to Constitutions, amongst other things)? Who else was going to stop the depredations of Milosovec? (Read Britain's Unfinest Hour by Brendan Simms - chilling). Moreover, if it wasn't for the rapid intervention in mid 2001 by NATO in FYROM (albeit led by the UK) on OP AMBER FOX, FYROM would (imi) would have inexorably tumbled into internecine strife.
12 Sep 2001 Art V was invoked by the NAC; OP EAGLE ASSIST was launched and quietly, but very effectively, OP ACTIVE ENDEAVOUR got underway. The latter operation is on-going and has been an extemely effective political-military tool of regional engagment (if one likes that sort of thing!) and the mission has been expanded. As you are no doubt aware, NATO offered assistance in re Afghanistan immediately after 11 Sep 01; it was stoutly rejected by the neocon administration in Washington. However, NATO has persisted, indeed the mandate has been extended to include Kabul and 2 Provincial Reconstruction Teams. By the way, a total of 35 NNTCNs have participated in Balkans, Med and Afghan ops; unparalleled security cooperation, which would have been unlikely if it was simply a coalition lead by a capitalist hegemon.
12 Sep 2001 Art V was invoked by the NAC; OP EAGLE ASSIST was launched and quietly, but very effectively, OP ACTIVE ENDEAVOUR got underway. The latter operation is on-going and has been an extemely effective political-military tool of regional engagment (if one likes that sort of thing!) and the mission has been expanded. As you are no doubt aware, NATO offered assistance in re Afghanistan immediately after 11 Sep 01; it was stoutly rejected by the neocon administration in Washington. However, NATO has persisted, indeed the mandate has been extended to include Kabul and 2 Provincial Reconstruction Teams. By the way, a total of 35 NNTCNs have participated in Balkans, Med and Afghan ops; unparalleled security cooperation, which would have been unlikely if it was simply a coalition lead by a capitalist hegemon.
Last edited by Cambridge Crash; 16th Feb 2005 at 09:31.
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Read Britain's Unfinest Hour by Brendan Simms
...and he's a lecturer at Cambridge!
...it's not you, by any chance, is it?
16B