Compensation for a bad neck
Thread Starter
Compensation for a bad neck
bbc report
Provides a thought provoking piece. I would have thought navigators would have something to say about unannounced manoeuvres.
Provides a thought provoking piece. I would have thought navigators would have something to say about unannounced manoeuvres.
Was this instructor a 'real' QFI or one of those "We'll-call-them-QFIs-'cos-otherwise-we-won't-get-them-to-Valley" people?
If the 'instructor' was a real QFI, the "I have control" call should be instinctive - as should the "You have control" response from the student. But as everything else in the RAF seems to have been dumbed-down over the recent years, is it absolutely certain that those who used to be termed 'Tactics Instructors' (Qualified Gash Shags) and are now termed QFIs for expediency are actually trained to traditional CFS levels?
The student cannot have been 15% responsible if he never made the "You have control" response. In which case the Aircraft Commander and ipso facto the MoD were 100% de facto responsible.
He should appeal - and perhaps then the dumbing down would be exposed for the fraud it really is.
If the 'instructor' was a real QFI, the "I have control" call should be instinctive - as should the "You have control" response from the student. But as everything else in the RAF seems to have been dumbed-down over the recent years, is it absolutely certain that those who used to be termed 'Tactics Instructors' (Qualified Gash Shags) and are now termed QFIs for expediency are actually trained to traditional CFS levels?
The student cannot have been 15% responsible if he never made the "You have control" response. In which case the Aircraft Commander and ipso facto the MoD were 100% de facto responsible.
He should appeal - and perhaps then the dumbing down would be exposed for the fraud it really is.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Behind the wire.
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
15%
Man the F#*K Up everyone knows the risks. Deal with it, should have been the proper response. Bl#@#y nanny state.
#rant over@
Can Worms.....!? anyone want a slice of this lovely pie.
"right are you ready bloggs..... G\' coming on. .................... was that ok...... ok G coming off now"
B@llS**t
#rant over@
Can Worms.....!? anyone want a slice of this lovely pie.
"right are you ready bloggs..... G\' coming on. .................... was that ok...... ok G coming off now"
B@llS**t
Guest
Posts: n/a
Without knowing a lot more regarding the actual circumstances of this "incident" it's dangerous to comment... but hell, when has that stopped the crew room expert from voicing an opinion. So here goes. The student is taking the **** and was clearly an incompetent aviator. A navigator suffers this all the time if the crew is performing at top level and I'm not aware of any similar crass claims from the rear seat brigade.
Beag's, old chap, who should appeal? The Staff pilot (ie MOD)I assume?
Beag's, old chap, who should appeal? The Staff pilot (ie MOD)I assume?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: door or ramp, don't mind.
Posts: 961
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh for the love of Hoon 
Military flying is risky, not just when securing oil reserves but every day, and accepting that risk (and that doesn't translate as ignoring it) and occasionally suffering some discomfort in return for a line of work that apparently we all love, is what separates us from the utterly dull civilians you see living out their beige lives in retail management posts in large out-of-town supermarkets everywhere.
I suppose if this poor unfortunate mis-guided student pilot had twanged his neck windsurfing in Cyprus it'd be laughed off over brandy sours in the Mess the same night?
And anyway, send Slackbladder our way and we'll let him have a bash at plotting a dozen drop-offs crouched over a 50thou at night, goggs on't swede, at low level, in sub-zero temperatures, using the space left on the floor of the Boeing Hilton between 40 tightly-packed squaddies (stop laughing at the back) as a map table.
Where there's blame there's a claim.
Where there's a claim there's usually a slimy lawyer and a mild case of what I understand used to be called LMF.
And anuvver fing, note the possible presence of a slightly smarmy subdued grin on the face of said "victim" in the BBC report. Yeah, he knows hardship and adversity, I bet.
Rant off! Thank you!
Military flying is risky, not just when securing oil reserves but every day, and accepting that risk (and that doesn't translate as ignoring it) and occasionally suffering some discomfort in return for a line of work that apparently we all love, is what separates us from the utterly dull civilians you see living out their beige lives in retail management posts in large out-of-town supermarkets everywhere.
I suppose if this poor unfortunate mis-guided student pilot had twanged his neck windsurfing in Cyprus it'd be laughed off over brandy sours in the Mess the same night?
And anyway, send Slackbladder our way and we'll let him have a bash at plotting a dozen drop-offs crouched over a 50thou at night, goggs on't swede, at low level, in sub-zero temperatures, using the space left on the floor of the Boeing Hilton between 40 tightly-packed squaddies (stop laughing at the back) as a map table.
Where there's blame there's a claim.
Where there's a claim there's usually a slimy lawyer and a mild case of what I understand used to be called LMF.
And anuvver fing, note the possible presence of a slightly smarmy subdued grin on the face of said "victim" in the BBC report. Yeah, he knows hardship and adversity, I bet.
Rant off! Thank you!
jinda - "But if there had been a 'I have/you have' dialogue (not clear from the beeb report), then the guy (stude) is a p***k ----" is entirely correct. But was the handover of control properly established?
I have only ever 'snatched G' without warning once. On the way home to Brawdy in a Hunter T7, the zillion hour ex-GR1/3 Harrier mate in the other seat was looking down at something when I saw that we were about to hit a swan. No time to say anything, I just pulled up at about 5G. I explained precisely what had happened and he agreed that there'd been no alternative - it was an emergency manouevre.
It doesn't appar to me that this Hawk incident was of a similar urgency - as reported, the event was wholly of the so-called instructor's making. There is NO EXCUSE for hazarding your crew in such a way!
I have only ever 'snatched G' without warning once. On the way home to Brawdy in a Hunter T7, the zillion hour ex-GR1/3 Harrier mate in the other seat was looking down at something when I saw that we were about to hit a swan. No time to say anything, I just pulled up at about 5G. I explained precisely what had happened and he agreed that there'd been no alternative - it was an emergency manouevre.
It doesn't appar to me that this Hawk incident was of a similar urgency - as reported, the event was wholly of the so-called instructor's making. There is NO EXCUSE for hazarding your crew in such a way!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Up North
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without trying to sound too self-righteous, I have a similar permanent spinal injury obtained on the job, so to speak. Somehow I can't work myself up to making a claim against the MoD, mainly due to the (probably naiive) thought that there are people who suffer far more grievously and it would be rather insulting to them to put myself forward as a deserving case for compensation. I must be some kind of mug.....
I've also got a broken toe that occured on the piss....the RAF didn't surcharge me for the week or so that I wasn't fully productive, even though it was completely my fault! I'd suggest what goes around comes around.
I've also got a broken toe that occured on the piss....the RAF didn't surcharge me for the week or so that I wasn't fully productive, even though it was completely my fault! I'd suggest what goes around comes around.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beagle,
Sorry but I have to bight at this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was this instructor a 'real' QFI or one of those "We'll-call-them-QFIs-'cos-otherwise-we-won't-get-them-to-Valley" people?
If the 'instructor' was a real QFI, the "I have control" call should be instinctive - as should the "You have control" response from the student. But as everything else in the RAF seems to have been dumbed-down over the recent years, is it absolutely certain that those who used to be termed 'Tactics Instructors' (Qualified Gash Shags) and are now termed QFIs for expediency are actually trained to traditional CFS levels?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In answer to your question/assumption:
I have seen you slag off 19 Sqn QFI's on this forum before. It is obvious that you had a bad experience when you went through TWU in the bad old days.
Instructors at 19 Sqn are trained to exactly the same levels as "traditional" QFI's. They attend the same ground school and are expected study the same ground syalbus as their collegues on 208 when undertaking A2. I'm not about to start a public slanging match about who is better than who ( although, let's face it, that's what Pprune is for). But rest assured that the days of TWU instructors sitting in the back, shouting, and providing no instruction are long gone.
Deliverance,
Sorry to hijack the thread. Rant over.
Sorry but I have to bight at this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was this instructor a 'real' QFI or one of those "We'll-call-them-QFIs-'cos-otherwise-we-won't-get-them-to-Valley" people?
If the 'instructor' was a real QFI, the "I have control" call should be instinctive - as should the "You have control" response from the student. But as everything else in the RAF seems to have been dumbed-down over the recent years, is it absolutely certain that those who used to be termed 'Tactics Instructors' (Qualified Gash Shags) and are now termed QFIs for expediency are actually trained to traditional CFS levels?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In answer to your question/assumption:
I have seen you slag off 19 Sqn QFI's on this forum before. It is obvious that you had a bad experience when you went through TWU in the bad old days.
Instructors at 19 Sqn are trained to exactly the same levels as "traditional" QFI's. They attend the same ground school and are expected study the same ground syalbus as their collegues on 208 when undertaking A2. I'm not about to start a public slanging match about who is better than who ( although, let's face it, that's what Pprune is for). But rest assured that the days of TWU instructors sitting in the back, shouting, and providing no instruction are long gone.
Deliverance,
Sorry to hijack the thread. Rant over.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: NOTTINGHAM
Posts: 758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jess,
Couldn't agree more. Similar tale in a Bucc rear seat 25 years ago; sudden onset of unannounced G following Lightning intercept whilst I was jotting down notes about the cr@p (and soon to be chopped) student pilot on the wing (who had brought the Lightning with him back into the formation having managed to get himself split and lost in 8/8ths Blue) - Sorry must calm down; head hit knee; sharp jab between shoulder blades; lifted out of cockpit and valium administered (nice.......) whilst Doc straightened me up! Result - compression fracture of T5; 4 weeks bed rest; and 2 weeks in Headley Court!
Final result: 11 more years in the cockpit eventually on GR1s.
Financial Compensation? Never crossed my mind. It's what you get paid for.
Real Compensation - the knob student was chopped (and chopped again later!)
Satisfaction - Guaranteed!
Couldn't agree more. Similar tale in a Bucc rear seat 25 years ago; sudden onset of unannounced G following Lightning intercept whilst I was jotting down notes about the cr@p (and soon to be chopped) student pilot on the wing (who had brought the Lightning with him back into the formation having managed to get himself split and lost in 8/8ths Blue) - Sorry must calm down; head hit knee; sharp jab between shoulder blades; lifted out of cockpit and valium administered (nice.......) whilst Doc straightened me up! Result - compression fracture of T5; 4 weeks bed rest; and 2 weeks in Headley Court!
Final result: 11 more years in the cockpit eventually on GR1s.
Financial Compensation? Never crossed my mind. It's what you get paid for.
Real Compensation - the knob student was chopped (and chopped again later!)
Satisfaction - Guaranteed!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
So, as I said, the guy's a p***k! If the finding stands, and MoD does not appeal, then I would award him sufficient to have a good p**sup at his mum's, only to sue her after breaking his leg on the way out.
Davy_MC, the only 'slagging off' is at the person who decided to term TIs 'QFI(TS)s'. I don't recall the poor standards of instructors "Shouting from the back" that you describe (or, in my Hunter days, from the RHS). At both Brawdy on the Hunter and some years later, Chivenor on the Hawk, I received excellent standards of instruction from:
QFIs who taught pure pilot skill on the Gnat, Hunter and Hawk;
QWIs who taught weaponeering on the Hunter and Hawk;
TIs who were neither QFI nor QWI, but were staff pilots who were used for other essential TWU tasks (formation lead for simple cine and cine weave, SAP lead, LL nav chase etc.)
But for someone to be termed a Qualfied Flying Instructor and never to have been taught to teach even EofC 1 is stretching credulity too far, in my opinion. The idea, I am reliably informed, was to dangle the carrot of a 'qualifiation' in front of people in order to entice them to a tour at Valley.
The 'IHC - YHC' mantra is drummed into u/t QFIs during basic CFS training and becomes second nature. All I meant was that, if the 'IHC' call wasn't acknowledged in this case and injury to the student was the result, then no blame should be attached to the student. And that such a call is far more unlikely NOT to have been made by a traditionally trained QFI than by a TI.
I also recall being very specifically briefed about the correct internal calls to make when doing those 'extend and pitch back' manoeuvres during ACM training when unloading with full power, achieving Vc, rolling rapidly to around 75 deg AoB, pulling hard to 6 and squeezing further to 7G in the Hawk. We were also carefully briefed on the correct posture to adopt if the other pilot was demo'ing said manoeuvre.
We did, also, have a heck of a lot more bum-on-seat time in those days than the folk do nowadays at that stage of training - I wonder whether simple inexperience was also a contributory factor in this case?
QFIs who taught pure pilot skill on the Gnat, Hunter and Hawk;
QWIs who taught weaponeering on the Hunter and Hawk;
TIs who were neither QFI nor QWI, but were staff pilots who were used for other essential TWU tasks (formation lead for simple cine and cine weave, SAP lead, LL nav chase etc.)
But for someone to be termed a Qualfied Flying Instructor and never to have been taught to teach even EofC 1 is stretching credulity too far, in my opinion. The idea, I am reliably informed, was to dangle the carrot of a 'qualifiation' in front of people in order to entice them to a tour at Valley.
The 'IHC - YHC' mantra is drummed into u/t QFIs during basic CFS training and becomes second nature. All I meant was that, if the 'IHC' call wasn't acknowledged in this case and injury to the student was the result, then no blame should be attached to the student. And that such a call is far more unlikely NOT to have been made by a traditionally trained QFI than by a TI.
I also recall being very specifically briefed about the correct internal calls to make when doing those 'extend and pitch back' manoeuvres during ACM training when unloading with full power, achieving Vc, rolling rapidly to around 75 deg AoB, pulling hard to 6 and squeezing further to 7G in the Hawk. We were also carefully briefed on the correct posture to adopt if the other pilot was demo'ing said manoeuvre.
We did, also, have a heck of a lot more bum-on-seat time in those days than the folk do nowadays at that stage of training - I wonder whether simple inexperience was also a contributory factor in this case?
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bouncing around the Holding pattern
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Um, got a bit of a sore neck from Friday's trip.
Need a new motor.....
Now where could I raise the cash from............
On a real note, that d!ck, like the rest of us knew the risks involved when he signed on the dotted line and got in the cockpit.
Could someone explain to me (really, not rhetorical) why the courts don't seem understand or appreciate risk or accidents.
Confused
TTH
Need a new motor.....
Now where could I raise the cash from............
On a real note, that d!ck, like the rest of us knew the risks involved when he signed on the dotted line and got in the cockpit.
Could someone explain to me (really, not rhetorical) why the courts don't seem understand or appreciate risk or accidents.
Confused
TTH
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you'll find the courts also don't understand stupidity.
Several years ago an induhvidual was walking out of the bunker (I think it was Neatishead?). Fixed along the corridor walls are eyelets for the escape guide rope. Said induhvidual was idly running his hand along the guide rope and his thumb entered an eyelet, did not get extricated in time and he broke it...subsequently sued and WON because no-one had told him he shouldn't use the escape line when it wasn't an emergency.
At least he had the good grace to pass the award on the RAFBF.
Several years ago an induhvidual was walking out of the bunker (I think it was Neatishead?). Fixed along the corridor walls are eyelets for the escape guide rope. Said induhvidual was idly running his hand along the guide rope and his thumb entered an eyelet, did not get extricated in time and he broke it...subsequently sued and WON because no-one had told him he shouldn't use the escape line when it wasn't an emergency.
At least he had the good grace to pass the award on the RAFBF.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: still in the mess
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TTH, I'm with you!
As a back seater, I've had more than one nose gunner thro me around with little or no warning - that's my job! I'd far rather have a no notice 6g pull than fly into somethig/one or get shot! What's next? Stude gets air sick and sues for distress or other such weediness? On the other hand, probably not the brightest thing to do it solely to see your parents house...
As a back seater, I've had more than one nose gunner thro me around with little or no warning - that's my job! I'd far rather have a no notice 6g pull than fly into somethig/one or get shot! What's next? Stude gets air sick and sues for distress or other such weediness? On the other hand, probably not the brightest thing to do it solely to see your parents house...
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember being injured while flying F4s with BEagle. He landed on the numbers (just an expression I know that's not where you land an F4), at the right speed and in more or less control. My jaw dropped in amazement just as he applied full braking . Head came forward banged into the instrument panel jaw closed with some speed trapping the Impiger tongue in the process. Haven't been able to taste claret properly since. Who do I sue?
a. BEagle for performing so unexpectedly
b. The MOD for making me fly with him.
c. McDonnell Douglas for creating an aeroplane that was notoriously tricky to land
d. Tony Blair who was nowhere near me at the time but who has loadsa taxpayers cash to spend on all sorts of things
The world has gone mad is it any surprise this matelot wannabe fighter jock's name ryhmes with w@nks?
a. BEagle for performing so unexpectedly
b. The MOD for making me fly with him.
c. McDonnell Douglas for creating an aeroplane that was notoriously tricky to land
d. Tony Blair who was nowhere near me at the time but who has loadsa taxpayers cash to spend on all sorts of things
The world has gone mad is it any surprise this matelot wannabe fighter jock's name ryhmes with w@nks?
Last edited by Impiger; 12th Feb 2005 at 19:17.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: troon
Age: 61
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn’t normally join in on a discussion like this as I am no a pilot just an interested party but here’s my thoughts (for what they are worth)
Many of you have stated in one way or another that flying is dangerous and incidents such as this may happen and the general concenus of opinion is ‘tough sh1t’ Ok lets look at that from another aspect.
1/ the QFI/FI took the controls without indicating his intended actions to the Student I note with interest that the BBC journo worded it as such…
“After hitting his target he began to recover height when his instructor, took control without explanation”
Did he say (a)“I have control” or did he (b) just grab the stick? If (a) then is that not a bit dangerous? I would imagine that that would be like my Mrs. reaching over and grabbing the steering wheel while I’m driving (only worse) In which case I think that the FI should be disciplined and the Student compensated. If (b) Then as the Student I would have sat back and prepared myself for anything so sueing should never have happened (When I’m out and my Mrs is driving I tend to sit back, clinch the side of the seat, and pray to Allah, Jehovah, and anyone else up there who might be listening – but I would never grab the wheel off her!)
2/ “Um, got a bit of a sore neck from Friday's trip.
Need a new motor.....
Now where could I raise the cash from............
On a real note, that d!ck, like the rest of us knew the risks involved when he signed on the dotted line and got in the cockpit.
Could someone explain to me (really, not rhetorical) why the courts don't seem understand or appreciate risk or accidents.”
TTH
I wouldn’t have thought that Civilian court’s understand military risk’s or accident’s . They DO however understand Health and safety. And this is probably the angle that the claimant fought it from.
…Whatever way you look at it, the FI was a bit of a tw@ Interrupting an exercise just so he could play the Jackie-boy for the entertainment of his parents. I hope on that issue alone he got his @rse well and truly kicked.
Sorry if this is all a bit disjointed but I’m in a hurry as I’ve got a hot date tonight with a flagon of Ale.
Al
Many of you have stated in one way or another that flying is dangerous and incidents such as this may happen and the general concenus of opinion is ‘tough sh1t’ Ok lets look at that from another aspect.
1/ the QFI/FI took the controls without indicating his intended actions to the Student I note with interest that the BBC journo worded it as such…
“After hitting his target he began to recover height when his instructor, took control without explanation”
Did he say (a)“I have control” or did he (b) just grab the stick? If (a) then is that not a bit dangerous? I would imagine that that would be like my Mrs. reaching over and grabbing the steering wheel while I’m driving (only worse) In which case I think that the FI should be disciplined and the Student compensated. If (b) Then as the Student I would have sat back and prepared myself for anything so sueing should never have happened (When I’m out and my Mrs is driving I tend to sit back, clinch the side of the seat, and pray to Allah, Jehovah, and anyone else up there who might be listening – but I would never grab the wheel off her!)
2/ “Um, got a bit of a sore neck from Friday's trip.
Need a new motor.....
Now where could I raise the cash from............
On a real note, that d!ck, like the rest of us knew the risks involved when he signed on the dotted line and got in the cockpit.
Could someone explain to me (really, not rhetorical) why the courts don't seem understand or appreciate risk or accidents.”
TTH
I wouldn’t have thought that Civilian court’s understand military risk’s or accident’s . They DO however understand Health and safety. And this is probably the angle that the claimant fought it from.
…Whatever way you look at it, the FI was a bit of a tw@ Interrupting an exercise just so he could play the Jackie-boy for the entertainment of his parents. I hope on that issue alone he got his @rse well and truly kicked.
Sorry if this is all a bit disjointed but I’m in a hurry as I’ve got a hot date tonight with a flagon of Ale.
Al
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Up North
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Several years ago an induhvidual was walking out of the bunker (I think it was Neatishead?). Fixed along the corridor walls are eyelets for the escape guide rope. Said induhvidual was idly running his hand along the guide rope and his thumb entered an eyelet, did not get extricated in time and he broke it...subsequently sued and WON because no-one had told him he shouldn't use the escape line when it wasn't an emergency.
At least he had the good grace to pass the award on the RAFBF.
At least he had the good grace to pass the award on the RAFBF.
Libellous swine, Impiger!
"I remember being injured while flying F4s with BEagle. He landed on the numbers (just an expression I know that's not where you land an F4), at the right speed and in more or less control."
That IS the way you're supposed to land the F4!
"My jaw dropped in amazement just as he applied full braking . Head came forward banged into the instrument panel jaw closed with some speed trapping the Impiger tongue in the process."
Full braking? I doubt it! How dare you damage Mr McD's instrument panel - and how come your face fungus didn't soften the impact in any case! Next time fasten your straps properly! But if it stopped you talking for a few seconds...
"Haven't been able to taste claret properly since. Who do I sue?"
Actually, it's more likely to have been the fault of all that Keo plus the vile wine you used to quaff in Germany, old chum!
"I remember being injured while flying F4s with BEagle. He landed on the numbers (just an expression I know that's not where you land an F4), at the right speed and in more or less control."
That IS the way you're supposed to land the F4!
"My jaw dropped in amazement just as he applied full braking . Head came forward banged into the instrument panel jaw closed with some speed trapping the Impiger tongue in the process."
Full braking? I doubt it! How dare you damage Mr McD's instrument panel - and how come your face fungus didn't soften the impact in any case! Next time fasten your straps properly! But if it stopped you talking for a few seconds...
"Haven't been able to taste claret properly since. Who do I sue?"
Actually, it's more likely to have been the fault of all that Keo plus the vile wine you used to quaff in Germany, old chum!