Low Flying blame culture at JHC?
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As a simple SAR boy how am I supposed to do my training?
Very difficult to do winching from 500ft...
If I can't train I can't go and get those horse riders who are hit by cars ( heard it was 33 killed in last 10 years) or those climbers / walkers / lost politicians etc.
Suppose I could get anyone sailing or blown out to sea so long as they are outside the UKLFS.
They all complain until they need us.
All for going overseas to fly, beers got to be better.
Only 2 yrs to go................
Very difficult to do winching from 500ft...
If I can't train I can't go and get those horse riders who are hit by cars ( heard it was 33 killed in last 10 years) or those climbers / walkers / lost politicians etc.
Suppose I could get anyone sailing or blown out to sea so long as they are outside the UKLFS.
They all complain until they need us.
All for going overseas to fly, beers got to be better.
Only 2 yrs to go................
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Crossbow,
I decided to not post a comment regarding your views, thinking that 'hey, each to their own' and all that; BUT THIS
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its a fact WE NEED TO DO LOW FLYING!!!! End of story.
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why? and why in the UK?
really takes the bisquit!!!!
Despite the comments from other threads about your flying experience, how the chuffing hell can you say this. You are obviously a v small and v narrow minded Ar$£ who has no concept about anything at all, whatsoever.
And if you are looking for a bite, so Effing what!!! LF is a must and the knee-jerk reaction that the SH fleet now have to contend with is just another distraction that professiional crews can do without which will ultimately seriously degrade our fighting abilities.
GO AWAY!!!!!
I decided to not post a comment regarding your views, thinking that 'hey, each to their own' and all that; BUT THIS
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its a fact WE NEED TO DO LOW FLYING!!!! End of story.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why? and why in the UK?
really takes the bisquit!!!!
Despite the comments from other threads about your flying experience, how the chuffing hell can you say this. You are obviously a v small and v narrow minded Ar$£ who has no concept about anything at all, whatsoever.
And if you are looking for a bite, so Effing what!!! LF is a must and the knee-jerk reaction that the SH fleet now have to contend with is just another distraction that professiional crews can do without which will ultimately seriously degrade our fighting abilities.
GO AWAY!!!!!
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Crossbow
I don't want to have to be personal but needs must. How much of a "back to front" are you?
A wind up merchant - certainly. But if you get so much glee from winding people up about something that you are so ill informed about, well that makes you a really sad little man.
You suggest we export our low flying overseas. Mmmm, lets think, we aren't going to startle horses, little children, stampeding cows anywhere else in Europe? Or maybe you would have us transit further afield to train.
If you are genuinely mil aircrew, then wake up and think about what you are saying...but then all you seem to do is want to suck Tony/Buff's c@ck for a hobby so little hope of that....
I don't want to have to be personal but needs must. How much of a "back to front" are you?
A wind up merchant - certainly. But if you get so much glee from winding people up about something that you are so ill informed about, well that makes you a really sad little man.
You suggest we export our low flying overseas. Mmmm, lets think, we aren't going to startle horses, little children, stampeding cows anywhere else in Europe? Or maybe you would have us transit further afield to train.
If you are genuinely mil aircrew, then wake up and think about what you are saying...but then all you seem to do is want to suck Tony/Buff's c@ck for a hobby so little hope of that....
Well, we might have done a lot of ML bombing in the Gulf, but we also did a fair bit of under-the-weather low level at night when we didn't have enhanced Paveway ready.
We might find ourselves off to Kosovo or similar again with enough of a credible air threat to preclude flying at ML.
And low flying isn't something we can just remember how to do if we haven't done it for a couple of years thanks to a bunch of bleeding heart liberals and some people on horses who think they're more important than our capability.
We're good at low level and we're going to stop being useful compared to a lot of forces if we get rid of another "unique selling point."
Funny how there's never an article claiming we use training as an excuse to get drunk in North Wales, huh? 
We might find ourselves off to Kosovo or similar again with enough of a credible air threat to preclude flying at ML.
And low flying isn't something we can just remember how to do if we haven't done it for a couple of years thanks to a bunch of bleeding heart liberals and some people on horses who think they're more important than our capability.
We're good at low level and we're going to stop being useful compared to a lot of forces if we get rid of another "unique selling point."
"RAF Top Guns use training trip as excuse to get drunk in spain"
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we aren't going to startle horses, little children, stampeding cows anywhere else in Europe?
have flown pax at LL in Chinooks on training sorties in the UK... PERIOD
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crossbow
First, thanks for completely failing to respond to my answers to your previous questions and for resetting to the default "but why?" position. I answered that in about the fourth post in this thread.
Second, Training Risky did not break the rules if he followed certain guidelines set out in the JHC FOB, which I am certain any professional aviator knows of and follows - no need for a retraction at all. I wonder if you could tell me what those guidelines are?
First, thanks for completely failing to respond to my answers to your previous questions and for resetting to the default "but why?" position. I answered that in about the fourth post in this thread.
Second, Training Risky did not break the rules if he followed certain guidelines set out in the JHC FOB, which I am certain any professional aviator knows of and follows - no need for a retraction at all. I wonder if you could tell me what those guidelines are?
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Were it not for low flying training in the UK; I, 2 fellow crew members and 2 Pax would not be alive today and we would be down another airframe in the SH world. Terrain masking in the desert, you should try it some day. 
STANO Alert!!! 
I wonder if you could tell me what those guidelines are?
I know, do what the Americans are doing...draw down the European bases, as it's too expensive and too restrictive to train in places like Germany, and look to re-basing in the new NATO member countries (eg. Romania)
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For crossbow
Please forgive the rotary bias and understand that these are my own opinions and in no way represent those of the MoD
Q. Why do we need to low fly?
A. Low flying is a skill which increases survivability by using terrain to mask aircraft from anti-aircraft systems. It is a difficult skill to master which is why it needs to be practiced.
Q. Why can’t aircraft just fly above the threat?
A. Some can’t – helicopters, for example.
Q. Don’t we have equipment which stops aircraft being shot down?
A. Some guided weapons can be decoyed by the use of, for example, flares, but other’s can’t be decoyed easily. Similarly, unguided weapons (RPGs, bullets, AAA shells) cannot be decoyed. Using terrain for cover prevents the enemy from seeing you and therefore from shooting at you.
Q. Why don’t we train for this overseas – in theatre or based from ships, for example?
A. It’s expensive and difficult to get aircraft overseas, especially helicopters, and not all types can operate from ships. Those which do operate from ships are usually in-theatre already and therefore should be trained to do the job beforehand. Training while in theatre will increase risk unnecessarily – crews should be trained before they do the task, which is the whole point of training. Furthermore, training overseas separate to other commitments would mean even more time away from friends, family and home than the already overstretched forces are currently spending, and there is already a morale problem.
Q. Why don’t we have intensive work-up periods prior to deployment instead of constant low-flying?
A. Low flying is not an easy skill to master and cannot be switched on and off. It is a skill which needs constant maintenance and upkeep.
Q. Why don’t we low fly over built-up areas?
A. Several reasons:
1. In war it is tactically unsound to fly in urban areas unless necessary. There are places helicopters can practice this, but it doesn’t make much difference to fixed wing at 250’.
2. If there is an accident there is less risk of large numbers of fatalities if we don’t low fly over towns.
3. If you think low flying over countryside is a nuisance then imagine the nuisance if we flew over cities!
These reasons amalgamate into a good case not to low fly in urban areas.
Q. Our current theatres are in deserts and jungles. How does low flying over the UK help train for this?
A. First, we need to train for any theatre, so temperate training is relevant. Second, low flying is a skill-set in itself. The colour of the terrain is pretty much irrelevant, and the UK provides all of the problems you get in almost any theatre – the flatness of Lincolnshire nicely models the southern Iraqi desert, and the many wooded areas show us some of the problems we can expect to encounter in jungles. There is sufficient variation in the UK to represent most conditions. Areas we do need to deploy for are mountain flying and limited visibility landings (snow and dust).
Q. Why can’t we use simulators?
A. First, simulators are not good enough to accurately represent low flying. Neither the graphics nor the flight models are accurate enough yet. Second, there is a different “feel” when you get into a simulator to when you get into the aircraft. You know very well that you can crash the sim and walk away, but you are similarly very aware that you can’t do that in the real thing. Correspondingly, you do things differently in the sim.
CrabInCab - need a check?
Please forgive the rotary bias and understand that these are my own opinions and in no way represent those of the MoD
Q. Why do we need to low fly?
A. Low flying is a skill which increases survivability by using terrain to mask aircraft from anti-aircraft systems. It is a difficult skill to master which is why it needs to be practiced.
Q. Why can’t aircraft just fly above the threat?
A. Some can’t – helicopters, for example.
Q. Don’t we have equipment which stops aircraft being shot down?
A. Some guided weapons can be decoyed by the use of, for example, flares, but other’s can’t be decoyed easily. Similarly, unguided weapons (RPGs, bullets, AAA shells) cannot be decoyed. Using terrain for cover prevents the enemy from seeing you and therefore from shooting at you.
Q. Why don’t we train for this overseas – in theatre or based from ships, for example?
A. It’s expensive and difficult to get aircraft overseas, especially helicopters, and not all types can operate from ships. Those which do operate from ships are usually in-theatre already and therefore should be trained to do the job beforehand. Training while in theatre will increase risk unnecessarily – crews should be trained before they do the task, which is the whole point of training. Furthermore, training overseas separate to other commitments would mean even more time away from friends, family and home than the already overstretched forces are currently spending, and there is already a morale problem.
Q. Why don’t we have intensive work-up periods prior to deployment instead of constant low-flying?
A. Low flying is not an easy skill to master and cannot be switched on and off. It is a skill which needs constant maintenance and upkeep.
Q. Why don’t we low fly over built-up areas?
A. Several reasons:
1. In war it is tactically unsound to fly in urban areas unless necessary. There are places helicopters can practice this, but it doesn’t make much difference to fixed wing at 250’.
2. If there is an accident there is less risk of large numbers of fatalities if we don’t low fly over towns.
3. If you think low flying over countryside is a nuisance then imagine the nuisance if we flew over cities!
These reasons amalgamate into a good case not to low fly in urban areas.
Q. Our current theatres are in deserts and jungles. How does low flying over the UK help train for this?
A. First, we need to train for any theatre, so temperate training is relevant. Second, low flying is a skill-set in itself. The colour of the terrain is pretty much irrelevant, and the UK provides all of the problems you get in almost any theatre – the flatness of Lincolnshire nicely models the southern Iraqi desert, and the many wooded areas show us some of the problems we can expect to encounter in jungles. There is sufficient variation in the UK to represent most conditions. Areas we do need to deploy for are mountain flying and limited visibility landings (snow and dust).
Q. Why can’t we use simulators?
A. First, simulators are not good enough to accurately represent low flying. Neither the graphics nor the flight models are accurate enough yet. Second, there is a different “feel” when you get into a simulator to when you get into the aircraft. You know very well that you can crash the sim and walk away, but you are similarly very aware that you can’t do that in the real thing. Correspondingly, you do things differently in the sim.
CrabInCab - need a check?
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PTT - Thank you. At last someone has been able to find the time and graciousness to write a constructive and sagacious reply. You are clearly an intelligent and responsible person and so I thank you for that. The points you make are most valid and hopefully they will stand up and could be used by the Airships when the House of Commons select committee meets to abolish the UKLFS. We need good, solid arguments like yours in order to persuade our elected MP's that OLF is a vital and indispensable skill, which we cannot afford to lose. We all know that LF is a perishable skill (try going LF after a 3 week leave period and be honest with yourself about your performance) and as such it is imperative we retain this core flying skill. I’m still not convinced that we will be able to retain the UKLFS as I’m not persuaded our elected MP’s have the backbones to dismiss the anti-low fly campaigners but at least your thread is a step in the right direction.. TY
Last edited by crossbow; 4th Feb 2005 at 10:25.
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Wilton (been carpeted?
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Depends what you want to define as 'operationally'; but SAR missions have done the deed. Without the experience gained from low flying, both on SAR training and SH, it would not have been possible to save the lives that the UK military have.
If the government wishes to maintain a credible support to its people in times of crisis with the use of military aviation - think Boscastle et al; the military aviation community needs to maintain credible training - at low level.
)Depends what you want to define as 'operationally'; but SAR missions have done the deed. Without the experience gained from low flying, both on SAR training and SH, it would not have been possible to save the lives that the UK military have.
If the government wishes to maintain a credible support to its people in times of crisis with the use of military aviation - think Boscastle et al; the military aviation community needs to maintain credible training - at low level.
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more low flying please
i fly over congested built up areas, we are legal to 500' (is that low enough to be low flying) both during the day and the night. we always get complaints about waking people up at night, low flying aircraft in distress, sheep being worried and so on.
the majority of people who complain are also the types that complain that the police are not doing anything to catch villains. yet the whole point of us buzzing round their back garden at 4am is that fact that the guy we are following has their dvd player under his arm.
i feel that this same group of people would be the first to complain if we were unable to defend ourselves or that our armed services were no longer effective at doing a job we have done so well for 50 years+
the answers have been printed above. military low flying is a must, personally i think there should be more of it. im just gutted that i never see you guys over manchester. the sight and sound of a fast jet at 100' cannot fail to raise a smile.
p.s. any chance of a back seat ride with you guys, i can offer a slighty less demanding ride in our kite if u wanna see what we do (PM's more than welcome)
(these are my own opinions and not those of my employer - sadly have to insert that these days due to all the journo's etc)
regards
TFC
the majority of people who complain are also the types that complain that the police are not doing anything to catch villains. yet the whole point of us buzzing round their back garden at 4am is that fact that the guy we are following has their dvd player under his arm.
i feel that this same group of people would be the first to complain if we were unable to defend ourselves or that our armed services were no longer effective at doing a job we have done so well for 50 years+
the answers have been printed above. military low flying is a must, personally i think there should be more of it. im just gutted that i never see you guys over manchester. the sight and sound of a fast jet at 100' cannot fail to raise a smile.
p.s. any chance of a back seat ride with you guys, i can offer a slighty less demanding ride in our kite if u wanna see what we do (PM's more than welcome)
(these are my own opinions and not those of my employer - sadly have to insert that these days due to all the journo's etc)
regards
TFC
