Racism & Bigotry in the UK Armed Forces

[TurbineTooHot]

Tab Crash

rowing seems to be the preserve of white middle class ex public school boys & girls. I hasten to add that they are a good bunch and the boat clubs go out of their way to improve 'access'; this call is hardly heeded by visible ethnic minorities. Might also be something to do with the 0615 starts....chipping ice off the landings!

You've answered a question there matey. Why are there not more "visible ethnic minorities" on the river in Eights Week? Why are there not more in the armed forces even though we go out of our way to recuit them. Maybe, just maybe some folks just aren't interested.....

Why, should the crews be considered racist for not having filled their quota?

If the answer is no, then try applying that to the Armed Forces of TODAY, and see what arguement you come up with, TAB!

Turbine

[jayteeto]

I saw some people who had extreme views in my time, one is still serving. Never knew if he was serious or not but he used to say, 'when I joined up it was to shoot n###ers, now we have to help them'. Don't bury your head in the sand, racists are there but they ARE NOT EXCLUSIVE to the military. It just reflects society as a whole

[Cambridge Crash]

Turbine Too Hot for you?

Turbine Too Hot

With respect to your comments, we are in clear agreement. I did not allude to the boat clubs as being racist (or indeed the Services, for that matter - but descrimination in other areas has continued until very recently). I sat down with this week's regatta handbook, and out of the 250 odd competitors, about 15 (on the basis of their name) would appear to be a VEM. SImply an observation; non-judgemental.

I recall a few years ago attending an ecumenical seminar on personnel issues when the question was asked why so few south Asians were joining the Services. The answer was that they were too ambitious! As you may have observed on another thread, the Services are not considered attractive option for many young & educated people - unless they have a burning ambition, say, to be a pilot. Again, I allude to in an earlier posting, I saw the recruting stand at a Graduate recruitment show at a university not far from here. The RAF stand look down at heel and had little to offer the few who ventured to make any enquiries. A physics tripos, for example, being offered a career as an enlisted med tech. I can't image that the careers chaps picked up much trade that day compared wih what was on offer from blue chip companies and government departments, including the Foreign Office and GCHQ, to name a few.

Disappointing to see that the Services appear to hold little of interest for many young people. It is clear from what I hear from undergraduates here is that Iraq is a big factor - and these distressing stories and allegations of abuse arising will not improve the standing of the Army, and the other Services for that matter. It is not an issue of racism, but if you were a young Muslim, given these recent revelations, would you want to join the Services?

Cantab Crash

[jamino]

Just to throw in my two peneth worth,nice thread i love these, I was regiment for 9 years 2/1/33sqn,forget,blacks gays,muslims whatever, even if u were a hetrosexual 6ft white male and you just stood out because you had a big nose you got a good kicking evey night at depot. But then again thats why it works,conformity....say what you like...we're good at war because are forces are what they are
,remove the elitism,be it colour creed etc,the system will not work....look at the americans,and the ruperts at head shed no that all too well,thats why you will never get rid of it,and they dont want it to go either.when youv goto send guys to the sharp end,these are the guys they want.

[SASless]

Tell that to Specialist Sixth Class Lawrence Joel, US Army, holder of the Congressional Medal of Honor. A man of color who under intense enemy fire and depsite being wounded several times during the day, recovered wounded comrades and tended their wounds while ignoring his own. He did not play the race card nor did he show partiality in who he administered aid to.

Our belief is all soldiers are green. In combat, that becomes abundantly true. It is one thing to talk about being at the pointy end....it is another to be there.


CITATION:

Rank and organization: Specialist Sixth Class (then Sp5c), U.S. Army, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion (Airborne), 503d Infantry, 173d Airborne Brigade. Place and date: Republic of Vietnam, 8 November 1965 Entered service at: New York City, N.Y. G.O. No.: 15, 5 April 1967. Born: 22 February 1928, Winston-Salem, N.C. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty. Sp6c. Joel demonstrated indomitable courage, determination, and professional skill when a numerically superior and well-concealed Viet Cong element launched a vicious attack which wounded or killed nearly every man in the lead squad of the company. After treating the men wounded by the initial burst of gunfire, he bravely moved forward to assist others who were wounded while proceeding to their objective. While moving from man to man, he was struck in the right leg by machine gun fire. Although painfully wounded his desire to aid his fellow soldiers transcended all personal feeling. He bandaged his own wound and self-administered morphine to deaden the pain enabling him to continue his dangerous undertaking. Through this period of time, he constantly shouted words of encouragement to all around him. Then, completely ignoring the warnings of others, and his pain, he continued his search for wounded, exposing himself to hostile fire; and, as bullets dug up the dirt around him, he held plasma bottles high while kneeling completely engrossed in his life saving mission. Then, after being struck a second time and with a bullet lodged in his thigh, he dragged himself over the battlefield and succeeded in treating 13 more men before his medical supplies ran out. Displaying resourcefulness, he saved the life of 1 man by placing a plastic bag over a severe chest wound to congeal the blood. As 1 of the platoons pursued the Viet Cong, an insurgent force in concealed positions opened fire on the platoon and wounded many more soldiers. With a new stock of medical supplies, Sp6c. Joel again shouted words of encouragement as he crawled through an intense hail of gunfire to the wounded men. After the 24 hour battle subsided and the Viet Cong dead numbered 410, snipers continued to harass the company. Throughout the long battle, Sp6c. Joel never lost sight of his mission as a medical aidman and continued to comfort and treat the wounded until his own evacuation was ordered. His meticulous attention to duty saved a large number of lives and his unselfish, daring example under most adverse conditions was an inspiration to all. Sp6c. Joel's profound concern for his fellow soldiers, at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty are in the highest traditions of the U.S. Army and reflect great credit upon himself and the Armed Forces of his country.

[BEagle]

'All soldiers are green'

An excellent motto - it should be briefed at all arrival courses at training establishments!

[Training Risky]

How thoughtless of you, that is so offensive to the under-represented Martian community in HM Forces. I am reporting you to the latest govt Quango for race relations.

Expect a visit from a black, lesbian, differently-abled social worker tomorrow. (Just make sure you remove the ramp from outside your office.)

[BEagle]

Oops - apologies to the Mekon and all his Venusian Treens!

Which will, of course, mean absolutely nothing to those who never read the Eagle, eh Digby?

When should I expect your girlfriend to call tomorrow then, Training Risky?

[Jordan D]

Sorry, slightly off topic, but to go back to the rowing thread a few posts back up, I can support the point made. I'm Asian, though never ever play the race card, as its just not something I would do, but there is a truism when you say there are hardly any non-Whites in rowing. Every regatta/race I go to, you'd be hard pressed to find a non-White, be it Oriental, Asian, Black or whatever. Maybe its the 0615 outings (with lots of ice here in Edinburgh!).

Jordan

[jamino]

SASLESS it wasnt a black thing m8 there were lots of good coloured soldiers in my regiment too , i dont have a problem with anyones colour or beleif,thats not the point here ,the point is that since year dot, the forces have had to some extent abuse and bigotry towards those who dont conform,dont flatter yourselves,it isnt a colour thing, nore is it new,it was institutionalised before we even colonised England2..ooops... did i say England 2.....i mean america

[SASless]

No problem Jams....once we served up the eviction notice.....and cleaned the place out....the new occupants never cared who had been there before.

Reckon the old landlords may be a bit miffed with the way the old place turned out but what the heck....that is how it goes sometimes.

[tablet_eraser]

Jamino

So we should accept racism? Yes, there has always been racism and bigotry in the Armed Forces, same as in society - that doesn't mean it should be tolerated. The US Forces and HMAF have been generally tolerant of different races for a long time. SASless's example is excellent, as is the fact that HMAF have employed Gurkhas for a very long time. Anyone who has read Colin Powell's autobiography will agree with that. Racism prevents people like Colin Powell from achieveing his full potential, and I think we should be pleased that the Armed Forces do not tolerate it.

On the other hand, Powell says:

And Lord help anyone who strays from accepted ideas of political correctness. The slightest suggestion of offence toward any group, however innocently made, and even when made merely to illustrate a historical point, will be met with cries that the offender be fired or forced to undergo sensitivity training, or threats of legal action. (Powell, C, A Soldier's Way: An Autobiography, Random House (1995), p.610)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and no-one should be prevented from expressing it. Likewise, no-one should be disadvantaged for any personal attributes that do not effect operational effectiveness. There should be a massive difference between expressing an opinion and unfairly discriminating against someone - one should be encouraged, the other curbed. Giving someone a shoeing at a regt depot because of their colour, sexuality, height, muscial taste, whatever, amounts to discrimination and bullying and should never be tolerated; we don't need bullying to prove ourselves as leaders or warfighters, just professionalism and toughness.

[ORAC]

Musical taste? When did that creep onto the PC agenda?

[tablet_eraser]

Just trying to illustrate how absurd it is that people can be picked on for, to cite jamino's example, something as trivial as having a big nose.

That said, people who like R&B probably should get a kicking anyway...

[teeteringhead]

And of course Colin Powell's family went to USA rather than UK from Jamaica (?) virtually on the flip of a coin. And didn't Powell (or was it someone talking about him) say if he'd joined the British Army he might have finished up as a WO in a Corps rather than CDS.

Of course, that was then....

[Zoom]

BEagle
I thought all soldiers were brown(jobs).

Many years ago a most likeable black pilot on my outfit was asked 'Hey, XXX, is your wife black too?' He replied 'No, I married a pinkie.' A rather neat retort, I always felt.

[BEagle]

Not nowadays, I suspect that the colour brown might be construed as racially offensive to some.

Whereas green only pisses off the Treens from Venus!

PS - Your girlfriend hasn't turned up yet, Training Risky!

[tablet_eraser]

I heard a story some time ago concerning equality at Neatishead. The Station's self-styled "resident lesbian", an SAC, was introduced to the new Adj, who happened to be of black indian extraction. SAC x had, on occasion, come across as the sort of individual who would try to use her sexuality to gain an advantage in the EO-inspired atmosphere of perceived 'positive discrimination'.

SAC: "Hello, Sir, I'm the Station's resident lesbian."
Adj (after a pause, and with considerable sarcasm): "Hi, I'm black. Shall we see who gets promoted first?"

Then there's the old story about the word 'coloured', hated by all of my black, Indian and Sri Lankan friends. The story goes that a white equality adviser had been speaking to a black South African fellow, studiously referring to him as "coloured". After a while, the South African interrupted: "Coloured? I'm dark brown, all year round. When you're warm, you're pink. When you're cold, you're blue. After you've been in the sun, you go brown; and when you're sick, you look green. And you have the audacity to call ME coloured?"

And my favourite, glorious example of someone trying to be studiously anti-racist and falling flat. Princess Michael of Kent had insulted some black diners at a New York restuarant by allegedly telling them to "go back to the Colonies". In an interview, she said:

I am emphatically not a racist. Once, I even spent a day dressed as a half-caste to see what it was like.

Nice try, Pushy!

[jamino]

everyone keeps bangin on about colin powell,ill give him his due...if he could tell me off the top of his head what every tape on his battle dress was for...i win me thinks!

[FJJP]

One of the most fabulous characters it has ever been my privilege to serve with is Jamaican. We go way back to the V Force of the 60s. Latterly, when I was Flt Cdr and he a spec aircrew Sqn Ldr, we served on the same Sqn, flew together and delighted in taking the p*ss out of the PC brigade.

You should have seen the expression on the faces of the new youngsters on the Sqn when he used to call me his 'White Honkey' and I called him my 'Black Bastard'!

In nearly 40 years I never witnessed or heard of a single case of racial abuse in the Royal Air Force. Trouble with all these things, is that a single, isolated, uncharacteristic incident is so rare as to be headline news. And the PC brigade milk it for all its worth.

After all, it's the only time that anyone takes any notice of these characterless pratts.