BWoS cuts 1,300 jobs
BWoS? I suppose someone has to ask the question, so it might as well be me
. I assumed it was some (rude?) acronym for British Aerospace or as they are now, BAE but could find nothing on Reuters etc.
. I assumed it was some (rude?) acronym for British Aerospace or as they are now, BAE but could find nothing on Reuters etc.
OK, just saw on another thread that it is BAE Systems (still nothing on Reuters). Pity BAE did not put their plants into the consituencies of either Blair, Brown or Prescott - that way they would have been guaranteed a chunk of discrete State aid (ala Swan Hunters on the Tyne with their £84 million lifeline).
I think you’ve got to remember that what is now BAeS comprises many of the great names of the British defence industry. Not all should be tarred with the same brush.
For example, Ferranti engineers have designed and built some of the best airborne fire control and surveillance radars ever – Blue Fox (SHAR1), Blue Vixen (SHAR2), ECR90 (Typhoon), Blue Kestrel (Merlin), Sea Spray (Lynx). They built the clever bits for Tornado’s. Buccaneer, Phantom, Lightning, and more, carried radars for which they were the Design Authority. What used to be 13 factories in Edinburgh employing many thousands was decimated by the International Signal scandal and many of the workers lost their pensions long before the current debacle.
BAeS were clever enough to take on those parts of Marconi that maintained equally high standards, for example the secure systems division which is responsible for most of the airborne secure comms used by all 3 services, and many of the radios. By definition, it is this experience which will get BOWMAN working in aircraft.
The word most used by the MoD to describe BAeS is “arrogant”. But those who remember would never use it against Ferranti or Marconi. They simply made bloody good kit.
For example, Ferranti engineers have designed and built some of the best airborne fire control and surveillance radars ever – Blue Fox (SHAR1), Blue Vixen (SHAR2), ECR90 (Typhoon), Blue Kestrel (Merlin), Sea Spray (Lynx). They built the clever bits for Tornado’s. Buccaneer, Phantom, Lightning, and more, carried radars for which they were the Design Authority. What used to be 13 factories in Edinburgh employing many thousands was decimated by the International Signal scandal and many of the workers lost their pensions long before the current debacle.
BAeS were clever enough to take on those parts of Marconi that maintained equally high standards, for example the secure systems division which is responsible for most of the airborne secure comms used by all 3 services, and many of the radios. By definition, it is this experience which will get BOWMAN working in aircraft.
The word most used by the MoD to describe BAeS is “arrogant”. But those who remember would never use it against Ferranti or Marconi. They simply made bloody good kit.
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"BAeS were clever enough to take on those parts of Marconi that maintained equally high standards, for example the secure systems division which is responsible for most of the airborne secure comms used by all 3 services, and many of the radios. By definition, it is this experience which will get BOWMAN working in aircraft."
ITT build the BOWMAN airborne radio developed from SINCGARS, and it has already flown.
ITT build the BOWMAN airborne radio developed from SINCGARS, and it has already flown.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
So? So has Wastelands. A lot of history has gone, Saunders Roe, English Electric. Get over it.
If BAe cannot sell enough of their kit in the open market to keep their staff employed then they should sell the plants to someone who can, shut them down or down size - which is what they are doing, and good luck to them.
BAe is a multi-national, and whilst it has got rid of a lot of jobs here it has bought a lot of plants in the USA - where the market and the profits are and, if it could, would merge with someone like Boeing. So I cannot get overwhelmed with the fact that the Italians have bought plants in the UK. So have Raytheon, LM, Thales etc - or hadn't you noticed?
I spent most of my service life watching us buy shoddy overpriced kit to help keep the unions happy, with the government having it's arm twisted every time a contract came around, meanwhile the front line got smaller and smaller. So pardon me if I do not get emotional when Amicus moan about the loss of a few hundred jobs.
If BAe cannot sell enough of their kit in the open market to keep their staff employed then they should sell the plants to someone who can, shut them down or down size - which is what they are doing, and good luck to them.
BAe is a multi-national, and whilst it has got rid of a lot of jobs here it has bought a lot of plants in the USA - where the market and the profits are and, if it could, would merge with someone like Boeing. So I cannot get overwhelmed with the fact that the Italians have bought plants in the UK. So have Raytheon, LM, Thales etc - or hadn't you noticed?
I spent most of my service life watching us buy shoddy overpriced kit to help keep the unions happy, with the government having it's arm twisted every time a contract came around, meanwhile the front line got smaller and smaller. So pardon me if I do not get emotional when Amicus moan about the loss of a few hundred jobs.
Last edited by ORAC; 1st Feb 2005 at 13:29.
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ORAC
Apologies for getting a bit emotional about the job cuts.
Just felt that losing jobs in such a crucial part of the UK Defence Industry was so depressing.
The Ferranti INAS is still fitted to the F3 and IDS almost 40 years after first being designed. What a bit of kit !
Apologies for getting a bit emotional about the job cuts.
Just felt that losing jobs in such a crucial part of the UK Defence Industry was so depressing.
The Ferranti INAS is still fitted to the F3 and IDS almost 40 years after first being designed. What a bit of kit !
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WE
Fraid you're right about that.
Sold out Ferranti to a dodgy geezer in America.
Don't think BAe have been too bad though.
Tried their best with the present government.
Still giving 40,000 folk a good wage though.
Fraid you're right about that.
Sold out Ferranti to a dodgy geezer in America.
Don't think BAe have been too bad though.
Tried their best with the present government.
Still giving 40,000 folk a good wage though.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
There are 3 problems.
1. The defence market is about a third the size it was, but industry (and I totally accept with government interference) has not downsized to equal it.
2. The market has changed to wanting next generation kit, which at the moment is (almost) only available from overseas, and most of our industry is still tin bashing.
3. The MOD is so mixed up in the transition that the possibility of getting a coherent specification that won't change so that risk can be assessed and a sensible contract written is about as likely as king arthur turning up and asking for a mid-life update on his sword.....
1. The defence market is about a third the size it was, but industry (and I totally accept with government interference) has not downsized to equal it.
2. The market has changed to wanting next generation kit, which at the moment is (almost) only available from overseas, and most of our industry is still tin bashing.
3. The MOD is so mixed up in the transition that the possibility of getting a coherent specification that won't change so that risk can be assessed and a sensible contract written is about as likely as king arthur turning up and asking for a mid-life update on his sword.....
ORAC - you mean Project EXCALIBUR?
My understanding of that was that the IPT went for a COTL (Commerical Out of The Lake) purchase, which undercut the bid by Baron Warton's armament firm to provide an MLU on the Sword in the Stone by a substantial amount.
Apparently, the good Baron's plan involved merely gold-plating equipment approaching obsolecence at three times the price of the commercial solution ultimately adopted....
I'll get my coat...
My understanding of that was that the IPT went for a COTL (Commerical Out of The Lake) purchase, which undercut the bid by Baron Warton's armament firm to provide an MLU on the Sword in the Stone by a substantial amount.
Apparently, the good Baron's plan involved merely gold-plating equipment approaching obsolecence at three times the price of the commercial solution ultimately adopted....
I'll get my coat...
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I am convinced that one of the major management problems at BWoS has been the employment of ex-service people at the wrong level. Few military men fit into civilian management without major attitude and cultural adjustment and if they are resistant to change the company suffers.
If MOD are now hostile to BWoS it is not surprising. That relationship has been far too cosy in the past and it is the front line that has suffered with late, over-priced and shoddy kit.
Hopefully, we will now see a leaner, hungrier company with a level playing field to compete on.
If MOD are now hostile to BWoS it is not surprising. That relationship has been far too cosy in the past and it is the front line that has suffered with late, over-priced and shoddy kit.
Hopefully, we will now see a leaner, hungrier company with a level playing field to compete on.
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or get your cloak...........
soddim
Maybe late and overpriced but surely not shoddy !
Any chance of some more cliches please ?
Love \'level playing field\'
Keep bouncing those ideas around. See what turns up
soddim
Maybe late and overpriced but surely not shoddy !
Any chance of some more cliches please ?
Love \'level playing field\'
Keep bouncing those ideas around. See what turns up
Does anyone think either that we should have gone for a "national champ" far earlier (early 60s, say) for critical mass, or that we should have tried to maintain competition between the smaller aerospace firms?
It's increasingly obvious that the one-lump nationalisation was a bad idea, as perhaps was privatising it as a monopoly. Or should we have stuck with BAC and Hawker Siddeley as two competing orgs, but with more size?
It's increasingly obvious that the one-lump nationalisation was a bad idea, as perhaps was privatising it as a monopoly. Or should we have stuck with BAC and Hawker Siddeley as two competing orgs, but with more size?