Rosyth Dockyard (Brown's Constituency) to be saved before election
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Rosyth Dockyard (Brown's Constituency) to be saved before election
What a surprise Rosyth Dockyard in Gordon Browns Constituency
to be saved
Link to Story http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...452127,00.html
The Sunday Times - Business
January 23, 2005
Scotland: Rosyth dockyard set to be saved ahead of general election
Andrew Porter and Robert Ballantyne
A THREAT to the future of Rosyth naval dockyard on the Forth, one of the main employers for Gordon Brown’s constituents, is to be lifted by the Ministry of Defence.
Geoff Hoon, the defence secretary, will announce that the ministry has retained a veto over the choice of assembly site for two new aircraft carriers.
The news will be seen as almost guaranteeing the endorsement of the Babcock yard at Rosyth for final assembly of the carriers. Rosyth had feared it would lose the work if the choice of yard was left to the management contractor.
The veto will be revealed with the appointment of Kellogg, Brown & Root (KBR), a subsidiary of the controversial American defence group Halliburton, to manage the £4 billion construction of the carriers. An announcement could be made this week.
Rosyth had been tipped as the assembly site, but dockyard workers feared that the selection of KBR — revealed by The Sunday Times last year — would mean the work went elsewhere. Such a move would have decimated a key employer only a few miles from the chancellor’s home, and would have been seen by the Rosyth workforce as a betrayal by the Labour government in an election year.
The Rosyth workforce has never forgiven the Tory government for its decision to relocate a massive submarine fitting contract from Rosyth to Plymouth Devonport a decade ago, for reasons which have always been seen as political. The decision added to Scots’ rejection of the Tories, who were routed north of the border in the 1990s and have never recovered.
KBR owns Nigg, the rival offshore oilrig yard on the Moray Firth with no track record of building naval ships. But MoD sources said Nigg had in effect been ruled out by the ministry’s power of veto. Rosyth is now almost certain to win the final assembly work for the two carriers, with sections expected to be built at BAE Systems’ naval dockyards on the Clyde and floated around to the Forth.
KBR plays a big role in several British defence contracts but is best known for its construction and programme management work in oil and gas. It will be the “physical integrator”, managing the carriers’ construction across a number of British shipyards, although the appointment has raised hackles among British shipbuilders.
“We are waiting to see what the physical integrator’s role is, and how much risk KBR will be asked to take on the project,” said a source.
The carrier project is being managed by an alliance between the ministry of defence, BAE Systems, and France’s Thales.
Agusta Westland will learn this week whether it has won a $2 billion contract against its American rival Sikorsky to supply helicopters to the White House.
to be saved
Link to Story http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...452127,00.html
The Sunday Times - Business
January 23, 2005
Scotland: Rosyth dockyard set to be saved ahead of general election
Andrew Porter and Robert Ballantyne
A THREAT to the future of Rosyth naval dockyard on the Forth, one of the main employers for Gordon Brown’s constituents, is to be lifted by the Ministry of Defence.
Geoff Hoon, the defence secretary, will announce that the ministry has retained a veto over the choice of assembly site for two new aircraft carriers.
The news will be seen as almost guaranteeing the endorsement of the Babcock yard at Rosyth for final assembly of the carriers. Rosyth had feared it would lose the work if the choice of yard was left to the management contractor.
The veto will be revealed with the appointment of Kellogg, Brown & Root (KBR), a subsidiary of the controversial American defence group Halliburton, to manage the £4 billion construction of the carriers. An announcement could be made this week.
Rosyth had been tipped as the assembly site, but dockyard workers feared that the selection of KBR — revealed by The Sunday Times last year — would mean the work went elsewhere. Such a move would have decimated a key employer only a few miles from the chancellor’s home, and would have been seen by the Rosyth workforce as a betrayal by the Labour government in an election year.
The Rosyth workforce has never forgiven the Tory government for its decision to relocate a massive submarine fitting contract from Rosyth to Plymouth Devonport a decade ago, for reasons which have always been seen as political. The decision added to Scots’ rejection of the Tories, who were routed north of the border in the 1990s and have never recovered.
KBR owns Nigg, the rival offshore oilrig yard on the Moray Firth with no track record of building naval ships. But MoD sources said Nigg had in effect been ruled out by the ministry’s power of veto. Rosyth is now almost certain to win the final assembly work for the two carriers, with sections expected to be built at BAE Systems’ naval dockyards on the Clyde and floated around to the Forth.
KBR plays a big role in several British defence contracts but is best known for its construction and programme management work in oil and gas. It will be the “physical integrator”, managing the carriers’ construction across a number of British shipyards, although the appointment has raised hackles among British shipbuilders.
“We are waiting to see what the physical integrator’s role is, and how much risk KBR will be asked to take on the project,” said a source.
The carrier project is being managed by an alliance between the ministry of defence, BAE Systems, and France’s Thales.
Agusta Westland will learn this week whether it has won a $2 billion contract against its American rival Sikorsky to supply helicopters to the White House.
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Hmmmmm,
And the tory party never did anything like that when they were in power did they?
Difference rosyth has a more skilled work force than the hod carriers in plymouth or wherever on the south coast ever will have which is evident in the increasing costs whenever they win a contract,yet Rosyth seem to be doing pretty well when it comes to refitting the current Aircraft Carriers in service!
Southern T%^t
And the tory party never did anything like that when they were in power did they?
Difference rosyth has a more skilled work force than the hod carriers in plymouth or wherever on the south coast ever will have which is evident in the increasing costs whenever they win a contract,yet Rosyth seem to be doing pretty well when it comes to refitting the current Aircraft Carriers in service!
Southern T%^t
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The Aircraft Carrier Order also looks set to go to Dick Cheneys Company Haliburton.
Btw there are plenty of shipyards that could carry out this work including Barrow in Furness, Swan Hunters on Tyneside or the Govan Shipyards in Glasgow.
I couln't care if it's Labour or Tories, it's still buying votes
Btw there are plenty of shipyards that could carry out this work including Barrow in Furness, Swan Hunters on Tyneside or the Govan Shipyards in Glasgow.
I couln't care if it's Labour or Tories, it's still buying votes
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Grew up in Fife, family still there. Like many other people in the UK I've stood and watched as the heart and soul was ripped out of my community all in the name of progress or political Hokey Cokey.
So, if this time around its been chucked a little slack because it happens to have a high profile MP in the neighbourhood then good for it, high time.
Ok, its not right and it just means some other poor bugger somewhere else is being laid off but Fife's earnt it, a fair few times over!
So, if this time around its been chucked a little slack because it happens to have a high profile MP in the neighbourhood then good for it, high time.
Ok, its not right and it just means some other poor bugger somewhere else is being laid off but Fife's earnt it, a fair few times over!
Good news for Rosyth - and lots of other places that will be involved. And as for the local MP, hopefully any thoughts he harbours of axing the project will die away, lest he lose his seat.......
Styron, many of the other yards you mention will be involved in the build, see here for more details.
As ever, I repeat my usual caveats about the problems caused by the early loss of the Sea Harrier, and reductions in the size of the RN overall.
Styron, many of the other yards you mention will be involved in the build, see here for more details.
As ever, I repeat my usual caveats about the problems caused by the early loss of the Sea Harrier, and reductions in the size of the RN overall.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 26th Jan 2005 at 14:09.
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Just thought I would add my thoughts on this, as I used to work at Devonport about a decade ago. The fact that Devonport won the Trident contract was not appreciated amongst the vast majority of us who maintained the surface fleet, a lot of highly skilled so called hod carriers lost their jobs. Those north of the wall were a little peeved, understandably. Maybe they shouldn't have gone ahead with the construction of a huge outdoor swimming pool before the decesion was announced.
Groundhugger. (are you of scottish origin?)
As for the Rosyth workers being the more skilled, i'm sure that whilst both dockyards were run by the MoD all apprentices would have gone through the same sort of training reigeme. I can assure you that the vast majority of those I worked with were higly skilled, some management exceptions of course, and would find any comments saying otherwise to be very insulting. Is this just a case of north south rivalry.
Who was it who built the original Type 23 frigates? All of the remedial work kept me nice and busy for a while (just goes to show cheapest isn't always best).
Groundhugger. (are you of scottish origin?)
As for the Rosyth workers being the more skilled, i'm sure that whilst both dockyards were run by the MoD all apprentices would have gone through the same sort of training reigeme. I can assure you that the vast majority of those I worked with were higly skilled, some management exceptions of course, and would find any comments saying otherwise to be very insulting. Is this just a case of north south rivalry.
Who was it who built the original Type 23 frigates? All of the remedial work kept me nice and busy for a while (just goes to show cheapest isn't always best).
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WE B F
You aren't too far off the mark there. I can remember having to convert the flight decks to take Merlin (still EH101 then). Just think how much long term savings could be made if the short term savings were ignored, but as you said this is "the way" with UK defence projects.
You aren't too far off the mark there. I can remember having to convert the flight decks to take Merlin (still EH101 then). Just think how much long term savings could be made if the short term savings were ignored, but as you said this is "the way" with UK defence projects.
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Have met some of the very senior management of KBR who, although they are lacking in experience of building naval vessels have a good track record of large, complex vessels. First impressions of the team were extremely favourable.
For example, they build an oil exploration vessel of 70,000t, which in the words of KBR was as complex as a carrier, in a different way, but the quality of it is a quantum leap above that of the RN's latest ship (built by BWoS). The cost was £200M
The KBR chap couldn't see why the cost was £2 Bn each and reckoned a huge saving could be made. It all had to do with employing modern technology.
After seeing the luddite methods used to date he may have a point. A different viewpoint from someone outside the normal warship 'cartel' is a good thing, IMHO.
For example, they build an oil exploration vessel of 70,000t, which in the words of KBR was as complex as a carrier, in a different way, but the quality of it is a quantum leap above that of the RN's latest ship (built by BWoS). The cost was £200M
The KBR chap couldn't see why the cost was £2 Bn each and reckoned a huge saving could be made. It all had to do with employing modern technology.
After seeing the luddite methods used to date he may have a point. A different viewpoint from someone outside the normal warship 'cartel' is a good thing, IMHO.
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Yeah
I remember that awful person Malcolm Rifkind. He held Fife when Maggie closed Rosyth.
He had to support her ( because he had no bollocks) and then attempted to appease by suggesting they move the SAR from Lossie to Leuchars to cover the job losses.
I will also remember that he spoke in an alto English accent voice, trying to disguise his Scottish one - after all, he was a QC
He had a look-a-like; another nobber - Donald Dewar QC
What was his legacy for Scotland?
A very expensive white elephant at £m420+
I remember that awful person Malcolm Rifkind. He held Fife when Maggie closed Rosyth.
He had to support her ( because he had no bollocks) and then attempted to appease by suggesting they move the SAR from Lossie to Leuchars to cover the job losses.
I will also remember that he spoke in an alto English accent voice, trying to disguise his Scottish one - after all, he was a QC
He had a look-a-like; another nobber - Donald Dewar QC
What was his legacy for Scotland?
A very expensive white elephant at £m420+
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He had to support her ( because he had no bollocks)
A very expensive white elephant at £m420+
Suspicion breeds confidence
Maggie
As an aside, I went to a very good lecture by Bernard Ingham, Mrs Ts former press secretary. He described her as a tactless, rude, insensitive, uncaring workaholic who was just perfect the job. She relished her handbagging technique.
He went on to describe the very first meeting between Mrs T and Gorby at Chequers in the 80s. This is what she said to him.
"Good Morning Mr Gorbachev, welcome to the United Kingdom and welcome to Chequers. Just so there is no misunderstanding between us, I want you to know that I HATE COMMUNISM. It's unjust, it's unfair and its unwelcome. If you must have it behind your own borders , kindly make sure it stays there."
What a gal.
He went on to describe the very first meeting between Mrs T and Gorby at Chequers in the 80s. This is what she said to him.
"Good Morning Mr Gorbachev, welcome to the United Kingdom and welcome to Chequers. Just so there is no misunderstanding between us, I want you to know that I HATE COMMUNISM. It's unjust, it's unfair and its unwelcome. If you must have it behind your own borders , kindly make sure it stays there."
What a gal.
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Lee Jung
I totally agree with you about KBR. A highly professional and skilled company. I understand that the proposed management team are all out of the UK. They have been managing the construction of £billion oil and gas projects for years, CVFs should be easy-peasy by comparison. It is a pity that KBR has been unfairly tainted by the anti-Cheney factor pre-US elections.
I know first-hand from guys on the ground that they have been doing a great job supporting the US and UK military in Iraq and Afghanistan. (although the Basra accommodation can get pretty hot in the Summer!)
Their biggest challenge will be trying to get BWoS and the Frogs to form a team.
BFB
I totally agree with you about KBR. A highly professional and skilled company. I understand that the proposed management team are all out of the UK. They have been managing the construction of £billion oil and gas projects for years, CVFs should be easy-peasy by comparison. It is a pity that KBR has been unfairly tainted by the anti-Cheney factor pre-US elections.
I know first-hand from guys on the ground that they have been doing a great job supporting the US and UK military in Iraq and Afghanistan. (although the Basra accommodation can get pretty hot in the Summer!)
Their biggest challenge will be trying to get BWoS and the Frogs to form a team.
BFB
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Ever get the feeling that there is a general election soon 
Ailing Swan Hunter yard is thrown £84m lifeline
By Christopher Hope, Business Correspondent (Filed: 27/01/2005)
The Government was accused last night of trying to keep secret an £84m cash lifeline to a troubled shipyard which sits near the constituencies of Prime Minister Tony Blair and other senior Cabinet ministers.
The Conservatives demanded to know why there had been no formal announcement of the funding which was handed to Swan Hunter shipyard in the north-east of England last month. The timing, coming just months before the expected election in May, was described by the Tories as "suspicious".
The Ministry of Defence said the money was made available to Swan Hunter so it could complete a £160m contract for two Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels after the yard found it needed more money to complete the job. The MoD also allowed Swan Hunter to deliver the first ship one year later than planned in 2006.
An MoD spokesman said: "They [Swan Hunter] under-estimated the engineering requirement in the design and construction of the ships. We agreed an £84m contract amendment for the revised programme to fill the technical deficiencies of the company to take forward the project." He added that the extra money provided the best value for money for taxpayers.
Although the deal was agreed on December 10, there was no formal announcement. The MoD denied the news was "sneaked out" pointing out that local media in the north-east was informed. Jaap Kroese, the yard's owner, blamed the need for the cash call on late design changes by the MoD. "The MoD changed the design. The original offer was for entirely different ships." This was denied by the MoD.
Gerald Howarth, the Conservatives' defence procurement spokesman, questioned the manner and timing of the renegotiation. He said: "The Government has won Olympic gold for manipulating conditions for elections and it is the duty of the Opposition to be suspicious and I am suspicious."
He wanted to know why Parliament was not consulted over the talks with Swan Hunter in the same way that the MoD revealed to MPs problems on two big defence contracts with BAE Systems three years ago.
The news was greeted with frustration by defence industry sources. One said: "Because of the region where Swan Hunter is based, some would argue that the move has been made for political reasons."Ailing Swan Hunter yard is thrown £84m lifeline Critical: Conservatives have described the timing of the cash injection to the shipyard as 'suspicious'
Ailing Swan Hunter yard is thrown £84m lifeline
By Christopher Hope, Business Correspondent (Filed: 27/01/2005)
The Government was accused last night of trying to keep secret an £84m cash lifeline to a troubled shipyard which sits near the constituencies of Prime Minister Tony Blair and other senior Cabinet ministers.
The Conservatives demanded to know why there had been no formal announcement of the funding which was handed to Swan Hunter shipyard in the north-east of England last month. The timing, coming just months before the expected election in May, was described by the Tories as "suspicious".
The Ministry of Defence said the money was made available to Swan Hunter so it could complete a £160m contract for two Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels after the yard found it needed more money to complete the job. The MoD also allowed Swan Hunter to deliver the first ship one year later than planned in 2006.
An MoD spokesman said: "They [Swan Hunter] under-estimated the engineering requirement in the design and construction of the ships. We agreed an £84m contract amendment for the revised programme to fill the technical deficiencies of the company to take forward the project." He added that the extra money provided the best value for money for taxpayers.
Although the deal was agreed on December 10, there was no formal announcement. The MoD denied the news was "sneaked out" pointing out that local media in the north-east was informed. Jaap Kroese, the yard's owner, blamed the need for the cash call on late design changes by the MoD. "The MoD changed the design. The original offer was for entirely different ships." This was denied by the MoD.
Gerald Howarth, the Conservatives' defence procurement spokesman, questioned the manner and timing of the renegotiation. He said: "The Government has won Olympic gold for manipulating conditions for elections and it is the duty of the Opposition to be suspicious and I am suspicious."
He wanted to know why Parliament was not consulted over the talks with Swan Hunter in the same way that the MoD revealed to MPs problems on two big defence contracts with BAE Systems three years ago.
The news was greeted with frustration by defence industry sources. One said: "Because of the region where Swan Hunter is based, some would argue that the move has been made for political reasons."Ailing Swan Hunter yard is thrown £84m lifeline Critical: Conservatives have described the timing of the cash injection to the shipyard as 'suspicious'
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4246763.stm
Details the four shipyards that will build the future carriers for the Royal Navy.
Razor
Details the four shipyards that will build the future carriers for the Royal Navy.
Razor
