Nav to Airline Pilot
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Nav to Airline Pilot
Now I have no FRI to retain me in a few years, I am looking at options for the future. One of which would be to fork out a load of cash and pursue an airline career, but before I go down that road I would like advice from those in the know, ie those in the industry particularly those who have gone from Nav to Airline Pilot.
How do future airline employers view experience gained as a Nav?
How do future airline employers view experience gained as a Nav?
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I have very recently left the RAF, destined I believed, to become a Flying Instructor. However, the market is so bouyant at present I have been offered a job with a company beyond my wildest hopes. I believe that gaining a CPL/IR combined with the airmanship gained with the RAF will put you in an excellent position. Especially, when compared to somebody, who has admittedly worked hard, but has the bare minimum requirements.
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A Puma Nav left about 4 years ago and worked for BM regional. He has just got a captaincy which is pretty quick. The moral? Your brevet doesn't matter, your ability and licence does....
Several navs have made the transition. Dare I say it, but perhaps the ability to be part of a crew probably helps with multi-pilot CRM etc more than having been the sole pilot of say, a FJ a/c, might?
Good luck!
Good luck!
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There was a study done recently that reckoned that the best Typhoon pilots would be ex-navs! The findings were based on the fact that the aircraft would have a decent Flight Control System requiring less stick and rudder skills and that the job would require people with systems management experience and apparently pilot cross-over navigators best fit the bill!
Modern civilian aircraft are becoming more of a systems monitoring exercise and less of a hands-on experience - AP engaged shortly after T/O and disengaged for Ldg (most times) - so for long haul the AP flies for 99.9% of the flight. The ability to operate as a crew is probably one of the bigger advantages, but the disadvantage would almost certainly be the lack of 'poleing' time that you would offer. I know several navs who made the jump, spent alot of hard earned cash and all have ended up flying for the smaller airlines, however once you get few 1000 hrs with them (about 4 years if you went to EZY) there is no reason why you couldn't look for a job with the 'big boys'.
Good luck whatever you do.
Modern civilian aircraft are becoming more of a systems monitoring exercise and less of a hands-on experience - AP engaged shortly after T/O and disengaged for Ldg (most times) - so for long haul the AP flies for 99.9% of the flight. The ability to operate as a crew is probably one of the bigger advantages, but the disadvantage would almost certainly be the lack of 'poleing' time that you would offer. I know several navs who made the jump, spent alot of hard earned cash and all have ended up flying for the smaller airlines, however once you get few 1000 hrs with them (about 4 years if you went to EZY) there is no reason why you couldn't look for a job with the 'big boys'.
Good luck whatever you do.
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I know an ex dark blue looker who left, got a job with an airline, now flies for the big "V" longhaul. He's say's it's a piece of piss in the cockpit (obviously a bit of an exaggeration, i'm sure some skills are required). Not a lot of hands on the stick required, he say's it's all done by numbers and virtually flies itself. His ability to operate within a crew and multi-task (chat up hosties and eat his top of the line lunch) are far more important skills.
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Modern civilian aircraft are becoming more of a systems monitoring exercise and less of a hands-on experience
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Landings are few and far between on longhaul and I have heard that the currency requirements are 3 landings in 90 days - they don't have to be spread equally to one per month! Obviously a nav converting to pilot is unlikely to get a longhaul job at the first application, so he would get more hands on doing a shorthaul job. I don't think many longhaul pilots do the job for the pure flying it requires - more a lifestyle thing.
As regards system monitoring, apparently the favoured quote of a junior Airbus pilot is 'what is it doing now', whereas a senior Airbus pilot would say 'what is it doing this time'.
As regards system monitoring, apparently the favoured quote of a junior Airbus pilot is 'what is it doing now', whereas a senior Airbus pilot would say 'what is it doing this time'.
Last edited by Soiled Glove; 21st Jan 2005 at 09:40.
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I made the decision to jump ship 4 years ago - the best decision I ever made
I found the crossover relatively straight forward, the exams seemed were pedantic but quite do-able, the poling skills came quite quickly - the most difficult test was the IR. I think the IR would have been easier had I selected the better (but more expensive) flying outfit to do the training.
I got a job 4 years ago whilst still in terminal leave, at this present time I reckon the opportunities are as good if not better than 4 years ago.
Lifestyle wise it sure beats the cr*p out of being at sea
Pay wise if you land a job with the Low cost outfits you probably wouldn't see a drop in income but with a possible income level that would only come from promotion to Group Captain or above.
It's a no brainer in my opinion
Oh and you will be soooooo far ahead of the 200hr Oxford grads in terms of situation awareness and proficiency in manipulating the automatics / FMC that it\'s bound to be noticed!!
Investing your lump sum is always a decision that needs careful consideration. But consider the future of the nav profession- it\'s a shrinking industry with fewer and fewer opportunities
What are you going to do when kicked out at 55?
Financially it made sense to me to grab the gratuity and pension and start a new career in an expanding industry with opportunities around every corner. The gratuity halved my mortgage and the pension pays for the remaining mortgage payments every month.
If you heartily sick of all the niff naff and trivia that the military throws your way, the SDO\'s etc and just wanna fly then you should consider getting out and achieving your ambitions elsewhere.
Pie in the sky? one of my mates from Cranditz (ex Tornado nav)left at about the same time as me. He's been a Captain with Easy for over 14months, just converted to the A319, earns £65k basic plus sector pay of £9k plus his pension. As I say it's a no brainer
All IMHO of course
Looker
I found the crossover relatively straight forward, the exams seemed were pedantic but quite do-able, the poling skills came quite quickly - the most difficult test was the IR. I think the IR would have been easier had I selected the better (but more expensive) flying outfit to do the training.
I got a job 4 years ago whilst still in terminal leave, at this present time I reckon the opportunities are as good if not better than 4 years ago.
Lifestyle wise it sure beats the cr*p out of being at sea
Pay wise if you land a job with the Low cost outfits you probably wouldn't see a drop in income but with a possible income level that would only come from promotion to Group Captain or above.It's a no brainer in my opinion
Oh and you will be soooooo far ahead of the 200hr Oxford grads in terms of situation awareness and proficiency in manipulating the automatics / FMC that it\'s bound to be noticed!!
Investing your lump sum is always a decision that needs careful consideration. But consider the future of the nav profession- it\'s a shrinking industry with fewer and fewer opportunities
What are you going to do when kicked out at 55?Financially it made sense to me to grab the gratuity and pension and start a new career in an expanding industry with opportunities around every corner. The gratuity halved my mortgage and the pension pays for the remaining mortgage payments every month.
If you heartily sick of all the niff naff and trivia that the military throws your way, the SDO\'s etc and just wanna fly then you should consider getting out and achieving your ambitions elsewhere.
Pie in the sky? one of my mates from Cranditz (ex Tornado nav)left at about the same time as me. He's been a Captain with Easy for over 14months, just converted to the A319, earns £65k basic plus sector pay of £9k plus his pension. As I say it's a no brainer
All IMHO of course
Looker
Last edited by Looker; 21st Jan 2005 at 10:06.
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Getting a little tired of these Big jet pilots have no poling skills comments. Try doing a V1 cut at max TO weight in a 747-400 in the sim, I would put money on most mil pilots stalling and crashing into the terminal building ( I should know I am ex-mil meself )
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ColonelK
I don't think anyone was saying that 4 jet pilots have no poling skills - it's just they don't get many opportunities to use them in normal daily flying.
I don't think anyone was saying that 4 jet pilots have no poling skills - it's just they don't get many opportunities to use them in normal daily flying.
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Crossover
As an unfortunate Nav that hasnt made it to the OCU, I'm thinking of opting out and going for my APTL. Any advice about who/where and how much?
Although I have limited hours compared to the rest of you who have probably got K's on type, would the fact that I am ex-military (all be it still a bit green) be an advantage?
Any advice at all would be great.
Although I have limited hours compared to the rest of you who have probably got K's on type, would the fact that I am ex-military (all be it still a bit green) be an advantage?
Any advice at all would be great.
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Deliverance, firstly, not all nav's are failed pilots, some people like to tell others what to do, those people become navigators!
Secondly, having known someone dircetly involved in the Typhoon development, the general opinion amoungst the single seat test pilots (harriers/Jag) was that the Typhoon should be a two seat aircraft dur to the operational loads placed on the aircrew. Generally the only pilots who agreed that it should be single seat were the ones that had never flown single seat a/c (F3/GR1/4).
Thirdly, stick to the topic. From this I assume that you are a piolt as you take some encouragement to follow instructions!
Secondly, having known someone dircetly involved in the Typhoon development, the general opinion amoungst the single seat test pilots (harriers/Jag) was that the Typhoon should be a two seat aircraft dur to the operational loads placed on the aircrew. Generally the only pilots who agreed that it should be single seat were the ones that had never flown single seat a/c (F3/GR1/4).
Thirdly, stick to the topic. From this I assume that you are a piolt as you take some encouragement to follow instructions!
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Deliverance
I will do your straw poll for you! Just have a look around you, how many chopped pilots are F3 navs, and how many F3 navs are now single seat fast jet pilots. Our shrinking race has already sent navs to the Jag, Harrier, F16 and now the Typhoon. Not wishing to get into a pi**ing match about pecking orders, but your random comment of most of us being chopped pilots was a bit childish. I personally know of no chopped pilots currently serving as F3 navs. (Open to correction if anyone knows any!)
Strato Q
Go for it. Am thinking along the same lines but have not looked at it in depth, but know a few navs who are currently in the process of leaving with their ATPL's and some who are still navs but are civilian flying instructors too, with a view to commercial on leaving. None who have made the move have any regrets I believe. Good luck.
I will do your straw poll for you! Just have a look around you, how many chopped pilots are F3 navs, and how many F3 navs are now single seat fast jet pilots. Our shrinking race has already sent navs to the Jag, Harrier, F16 and now the Typhoon. Not wishing to get into a pi**ing match about pecking orders, but your random comment of most of us being chopped pilots was a bit childish. I personally know of no chopped pilots currently serving as F3 navs. (Open to correction if anyone knows any!)
Strato Q
Go for it. Am thinking along the same lines but have not looked at it in depth, but know a few navs who are currently in the process of leaving with their ATPL's and some who are still navs but are civilian flying instructors too, with a view to commercial on leaving. None who have made the move have any regrets I believe. Good luck.
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Strato Q
Good to see some words of encouragement out there.
Am looking to do the same thing myself, 2 yrs to go and counting...
Not sure if age will be a problem (38 when I leave) or the fact that other than training I have only flown rotary.
Good luck
Fatobs
Good to see some words of encouragement out there.
Am looking to do the same thing myself, 2 yrs to go and counting...
Not sure if age will be a problem (38 when I leave) or the fact that other than training I have only flown rotary.
Good luck
Fatobs
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Would you like some salt and vinegar with those chips Rogue?
Not wishing to get into a p*****g contest but stick a monkey in a jet for 6-9 years and he'll pick up the airmanship required to do well at Valley et al.
The fact that alot of Nav crossovers do well is proof of sod all, if they didn't then questions would be asked. The flying is the easy bit, its having enough brainpower left to remember to breath that gets most ab initios.
And before you come back with a petulant response yes we do know what we're talking about because training your Wonder Navs to be pilots is our job.
So there
Ner ner ne ner ner............
Not wishing to get into a p*****g contest but stick a monkey in a jet for 6-9 years and he'll pick up the airmanship required to do well at Valley et al.
The fact that alot of Nav crossovers do well is proof of sod all, if they didn't then questions would be asked. The flying is the easy bit, its having enough brainpower left to remember to breath that gets most ab initios.
And before you come back with a petulant response yes we do know what we're talking about because training your Wonder Navs to be pilots is our job.
So there
Ner ner ne ner ner............
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I personally know of no chopped pilots currently serving as F3 navs
