Aircraft Commander
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Aircraft Commander
In the RAF is the term "Aircraft Commander" used to describe the person in overall charge of the aicraft, its crew and its mission? Is the AC always a pilot? If you had a brand new Fl Lt Tornado pilot in the front and a Wing Co in the back with 6000 hours would the pilot still be in overall charge?
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officially because we are all joint it should be aircraft commander, but he is always referred to as captain.
A pilot is always the captain in everything apart from nimrods (i think, dont quote me though)
A pilot is always the captain in everything apart from nimrods (i think, dont quote me though)
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RJ,
The aircraft commander is the guy/girl who signs the F700.
Ref. your Tornado example, I believe the only way the Wg Cdr would be in charge would be if the jet was a twin-sticker and the Wg Cdr was an instructor (pilot) - and he'd signed for the jet.
S15
The aircraft commander is the guy/girl who signs the F700.
Ref. your Tornado example, I believe the only way the Wg Cdr would be in charge would be if the jet was a twin-sticker and the Wg Cdr was an instructor (pilot) - and he'd signed for the jet.
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Mind you there are quite a few senior officer navigators who like to think that they are the commander (in fleets other than the kipper fleet). I know several cases where senior officer navs were not allowed to fly with junior pilots for that very reason - cross cockpit rank gradient and CRM training don't always mix in my experience - and that's a whole new thread in itself!
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Quite different in the Senior Service though. The pilot is always the SUO and will sign the 700. However, the aircraft commander is the Officer who is the most senior.
In practice this will generally mean the guy who is the most experienced on type. The majority of our aircraft commanders are Observers and they also authorise their own sorties as well as command them.
In practice this will generally mean the guy who is the most experienced on type. The majority of our aircraft commanders are Observers and they also authorise their own sorties as well as command them.
SUO = Senior Under Officer = GOD
OK - what does it mean in Jackspeak then?
So, RN Pilots have to take it from behind from the Lookers, do they?
As we always thought.........
Re. Senior Officer Navigators, I was once flying with K Rucksack esq when the FMS800 froze, needing the familiar UF21 pull-and-reset re-boot (presumably that's finally been fixed now?). "I'll do it", he said - and disappeared downstairs before we could stop him....
Obviously his competence at such a thing was in line with the rest of his competence - for the next thing I knew was the first pilot's AI failing.... Fortunately the Air Eng sorted things out and everything reset itself.
OK - what does it mean in Jackspeak then?
So, RN Pilots have to take it from behind from the Lookers, do they?
As we always thought.........
Re. Senior Officer Navigators, I was once flying with K Rucksack esq when the FMS800 froze, needing the familiar UF21 pull-and-reset re-boot (presumably that's finally been fixed now?). "I'll do it", he said - and disappeared downstairs before we could stop him....
Obviously his competence at such a thing was in line with the rest of his competence - for the next thing I knew was the first pilot's AI failing.... Fortunately the Air Eng sorted things out and everything reset itself.
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Specialist User Officer......the guy who signs for the weapons.
So regardless of who locates, identifies, targets and fires the weapon (normally the Observer) the Pilot signs for the weapons.
Take it from behind.... ???? whilst sat next to each other.
So regardless of who locates, identifies, targets and fires the weapon (normally the Observer) the Pilot signs for the weapons.
Take it from behind.... ???? whilst sat next to each other.
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BEagle,
Can't agree, old boy!
The guy in the back always has a vote! It comes with a black and yellow handle!
An aside. 237 OCU (Buccaneer) once had a student pilot (ex Vulcan) who insisted on opening every conversation with the man in the back with: "Captain to Navigator". Old habits die hard. Didn't last long, I'm afraid!
Can't agree, old boy!
"no stick, no vote!"
An aside. 237 OCU (Buccaneer) once had a student pilot (ex Vulcan) who insisted on opening every conversation with the man in the back with: "Captain to Navigator". Old habits die hard. Didn't last long, I'm afraid!
Yes - it was first name terms for the crew in a Bucc. I rmember once saying "Nav" by mistake - only to be told that if I was too dim to know the name of the only other person in the crew, then I was probably too dim to fly a Bucc!
We used first names in the '10 until some damn ex V-farce tw@t got into high office - from then on it was crew positions only. Which put CRM back a decade or so.....
We used first names in the '10 until some damn ex V-farce tw@t got into high office - from then on it was crew positions only. Which put CRM back a decade or so.....
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We used first names in the '10 until some damn ex V-farce tw@t got into high office - from then on it was crew positions only
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In the kipper fleet the Captain - front or back was also the mission commander although the Tac Nav was 'in charge' of the tatic.
On teh E3 on the other hand the AC/Captain/Pilot is responsible for the safe operation of the ac but the man who makes the beast work is the MC (US/NATO) or TD (UK).
If the pilot does not do what the TD calls then he may get shot down or have a misison failure on his hands. OTOH if the TD tries to 'hazard' the ac in pursuit of the mission the AC has the casting vote. Quite democratic really.
On teh E3 on the other hand the AC/Captain/Pilot is responsible for the safe operation of the ac but the man who makes the beast work is the MC (US/NATO) or TD (UK).
If the pilot does not do what the TD calls then he may get shot down or have a misison failure on his hands. OTOH if the TD tries to 'hazard' the ac in pursuit of the mission the AC has the casting vote. Quite democratic really.
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'Do the big airlines use first names?'
Don't know what the RAF do, but a mate who flies for QANTAS told me that one of the 'older generation pilots' insisted on him addressing the captain as 'Sir' on the Flt Deck and then proceeded to tell him that it would be informal in the bar in the hotel and then he could call him 'Skipper'!
Allegedly, there is one airline in the Far East where the position on the Flt Deck is determined by the rank you had in the military - ie Captain (who let's say was Flt Lt equiv in Forces) would have to 'respect' the FO if he had been a Wg Cdr!
Most airlines use first names I believe, interesting to know what the RAF/RN do - 'alright Andy, sorry Wg Cdr, I mean Nav, I'll get my hat Sir'
Don't know what the RAF do, but a mate who flies for QANTAS told me that one of the 'older generation pilots' insisted on him addressing the captain as 'Sir' on the Flt Deck and then proceeded to tell him that it would be informal in the bar in the hotel and then he could call him 'Skipper'!
Allegedly, there is one airline in the Far East where the position on the Flt Deck is determined by the rank you had in the military - ie Captain (who let's say was Flt Lt equiv in Forces) would have to 'respect' the FO if he had been a Wg Cdr!
Most airlines use first names I believe, interesting to know what the RAF/RN do - 'alright Andy, sorry Wg Cdr, I mean Nav, I'll get my hat Sir'
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Must.....keep.....off.....soapbox......
oh bu**er it:
Pilots should always, always be aircraft commanders (captains) and the Nav/AEO/Whomever fraternity should be the mission commanders.
The MR2 world has never understood a/c command and continues to balls up this important issue by endowing Navigators and AEOs with a completely misplaced sense of captaincy. They are and will always be, IMO, simply mission commanders - not aircraft commanders. The E3 manages to do this well - why not ISK?
The proof of the lunacy is in the F700 - does any non-pilot MR2 captain actually understand just what he/she is actually signing for? Similarly, do many pilot captains truly understand the ASW Doppler Loop? Of course not - let the pilots captain and the rest (if they must) command the mission.
Here endeth the soap box lesson.....
oh bu**er it:
Pilots should always, always be aircraft commanders (captains) and the Nav/AEO/Whomever fraternity should be the mission commanders.
The MR2 world has never understood a/c command and continues to balls up this important issue by endowing Navigators and AEOs with a completely misplaced sense of captaincy. They are and will always be, IMO, simply mission commanders - not aircraft commanders. The E3 manages to do this well - why not ISK?
The proof of the lunacy is in the F700 - does any non-pilot MR2 captain actually understand just what he/she is actually signing for? Similarly, do many pilot captains truly understand the ASW Doppler Loop? Of course not - let the pilots captain and the rest (if they must) command the mission.
Here endeth the soap box lesson.....
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memo.....must kick soapbox away from Dave Ishall as he clearly talks complete B****cks when he is on top of it.
Although to give him his due he is clearly talking about MR2 / MPA aircraft.....
However, in the RN fraternity it is clearly the case that the senior guy should be the aircraft commander regardless of whether he has a set of sticks between his legs.
Although to give him his due he is clearly talking about MR2 / MPA aircraft.....
However, in the RN fraternity it is clearly the case that the senior guy should be the aircraft commander regardless of whether he has a set of sticks between his legs.
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Made the mistake of saying in a brief one fine day at an expiremental establishment below the M4 the following: "so I will be in command of the aircraft, the pilot will be in control of flying it ....." said pilot put me straight, as did auth, and crew etc etc ...
