Aircraft Commander
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Dave Ishall
Maybe the Maritime community (MR2, RN) has it right, afterall we live in a task orientated organisation. Backend captains in the RAF date back to the 'Battle of the Atlantic' and were introduced by a pilot, Gp Capt Dickie Richardson, who realised that the pilot had minimal input to the mission and to quote:
"The pilot had been little more than a helmsman, though he carried the prestige of Captaincy".
The myth of the pilot being the only one to understand the F700 is false, by the time any Navs reach Captaincy they will have more experience than the 1st Pilot you advocate signs as Captain. They will also receive training on the F700 as part of the 'Captains Course'.
Jump off your soapbox (fall if you have to), and stop over inflating the importance of a Pilot Captain. I have worked with good Pilot Captains and some very poor ones. Let the best person for the job do it and that comes with experience not 2-wings.
As an aside, the first Nav Captain was a Flt Lt Bob Irving, who had a distinguished wartime career, earning a DFC and Bar. Post WW2 he became more famous as an orchestra conductor and film music composer - better known as Robert Augustine Irving.
Ex-Nav Captain
The MR2 world has never understood a/c command and continues to balls up this important issue by endowing Navigators and AEOs with a completely misplaced sense of captaincy.
"The pilot had been little more than a helmsman, though he carried the prestige of Captaincy".
The myth of the pilot being the only one to understand the F700 is false, by the time any Navs reach Captaincy they will have more experience than the 1st Pilot you advocate signs as Captain. They will also receive training on the F700 as part of the 'Captains Course'.
Jump off your soapbox (fall if you have to), and stop over inflating the importance of a Pilot Captain. I have worked with good Pilot Captains and some very poor ones. Let the best person for the job do it and that comes with experience not 2-wings.
As an aside, the first Nav Captain was a Flt Lt Bob Irving, who had a distinguished wartime career, earning a DFC and Bar. Post WW2 he became more famous as an orchestra conductor and film music composer - better known as Robert Augustine Irving.
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Strato Q is spot on - it's task orientated.
When I was a DDFF Flt Cdr, I'd normally be captain of the a/c - and for the Light Blue, I'd also be Authoriser for disembarked sorties. However for GH and pilot s%^t sorties I'd make the Pilot captain - he understood the aims of the sortie better. On tactical or nav stuff I'd be a/c captain - same reason.
The a/c captain only has the casting vote in a good CRM crew but gets the benefit of explaining to a stroppy RAF Sgt the intricacies of the relationship between a/c captain, first pilot and authoriser when something goes awry.
"No stick, no vote" phah - I know of one looker who gave his pilot a direct order to return to the ship in order to explain to the real Captain why he was acting like a total t&((£r and contradicting the direction of the observer (and a/c captain). Funny old thing he then did what he was told!
When I was a DDFF Flt Cdr, I'd normally be captain of the a/c - and for the Light Blue, I'd also be Authoriser for disembarked sorties. However for GH and pilot s%^t sorties I'd make the Pilot captain - he understood the aims of the sortie better. On tactical or nav stuff I'd be a/c captain - same reason.
The a/c captain only has the casting vote in a good CRM crew but gets the benefit of explaining to a stroppy RAF Sgt the intricacies of the relationship between a/c captain, first pilot and authoriser when something goes awry.
"No stick, no vote" phah - I know of one looker who gave his pilot a direct order to return to the ship in order to explain to the real Captain why he was acting like a total t&((£r and contradicting the direction of the observer (and a/c captain). Funny old thing he then did what he was told!
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Hyd3
To quote swampy
"However for GH and pilot s%^t sorties I'd make the Pilot captain"
That's who
Did you get out of the wrong side of bed today? You seem very grumpy on several of these threads, or maybe you aren't "flying your nutz off" today?
To quote swampy
"However for GH and pilot s%^t sorties I'd make the Pilot captain"
That's who
Did you get out of the wrong side of bed today? You seem very grumpy on several of these threads, or maybe you aren't "flying your nutz off" today?
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I never had any problems as P1/Capt.
I did the flying. The Tac Nav ran the tactics, with advice from the leads. The Captain (whoever it was) had the deciding vote.
I did the flying. The Tac Nav ran the tactics, with advice from the leads. The Captain (whoever it was) had the deciding vote.
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Hyd3
Why not? The "seniority" versus experience argument is still quite a grey area as "normally" is very hard to define. Maybe the pilot was a passed over Lt beefer with 3000 hours, but the FC was a newly promoted GL Lieutenant Commander with 500 on type. Best man for the job would be a much better rule of thumb, or even, "how would this go down at a BOI?", which I think is what most Authorisers use.
Oh and no stick no vote would also apply - I'll bet many Obs/Nav Aircraft Commanders out there have had to rein in their "over enthusiastic" Pilots when beating up mum/weddings/totty*. Make the pilot A/C Commander and he carries the can for any misdemeanours at said satellite airfield
* delete as appropriate
Why not? The "seniority" versus experience argument is still quite a grey area as "normally" is very hard to define. Maybe the pilot was a passed over Lt beefer with 3000 hours, but the FC was a newly promoted GL Lieutenant Commander with 500 on type. Best man for the job would be a much better rule of thumb, or even, "how would this go down at a BOI?", which I think is what most Authorisers use.
Oh and no stick no vote would also apply - I'll bet many Obs/Nav Aircraft Commanders out there have had to rein in their "over enthusiastic" Pilots when beating up mum/weddings/totty*. Make the pilot A/C Commander and he carries the can for any misdemeanours at said satellite airfield
* delete as appropriate
the Captain / Commander is (generally) the guy who is most senior. Experience doesn't count a jot. I know its wrong but thats the way it is.
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Well blow me down, Hyd3, I've just moved from Ouch to here and here you are still banging away at this drum too! Don't you ever give up!? What is your beef with officers, old boy? Tried and failed at BRNC or never tried at all? Which is it?
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Hyd3
Get some time in! Nearly served 30 years have you? Then you ought by now to know when to wind yer neck in and as has been said to you many times here and else where on this forum!
Give it a rest and grow up!
Get some time in! Nearly served 30 years have you? Then you ought by now to know when to wind yer neck in and as has been said to you many times here and else where on this forum!
Give it a rest and grow up!
The army fly with two pilots, one of which(obviously) will be the Aircraft Commander. He/she will generally occupy the left hand seat, taking care of the navigation, mission management and weapon firing(Lynx). Unless it's changed, the Pilot can sign the 700, but then he must bring it for the AC to check, so mostly the AC signs. Not sure exactly how they do it in the Apache, but you can probably substitute front seat for left hand seat.
The AC is normally the most experienced of the crew, but not necessarily so. The AC can often be a SNCO and the Pilot a commisioned officer.
The AC is normally the most experienced of the crew, but not necessarily so. The AC can often be a SNCO and the Pilot a commisioned officer.
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That sounds the most sensible way to do it. The only difference is that in the RN the AC isn't a pilot and doesn't have a set of controls.
Whatever your command or service, there seems to be many ways to skin a cat here. Each command/service have their own rules to fit their own circumstances and thats probably the way it should remain.
Whatever your command or service, there seems to be many ways to skin a cat here. Each command/service have their own rules to fit their own circumstances and thats probably the way it should remain.
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Operating the Nimrod is very much a full crew team effort -
Captain is there to take the bollocking if anything goes wrong, or the praise when you win something!
I know - my 1st sortie as Capt, I forgot to sign the auth sheet
Happy days!
Captain is there to take the bollocking if anything goes wrong, or the praise when you win something!
I know - my 1st sortie as Capt, I forgot to sign the auth sheet
Happy days!
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As far as I can see the only people who seem to get worked up about captaincy are the taxi drivers, must be an inferiority complex thing. The authoriser should decide who is best placed to be aircraft captain and so nominate at the brief. However it is never as straightforward as that so simple rules are put in place.
In the RN it is generally accepted that the senior chap will be a/c captain as he is normally the most experienced aviator. After all captaincy is about decision making not pole-ing. Captaincy type decisions are normally required when situations change eg diversons, wether changes, emergencies etc the most experienced guy is best placed to make such decisions.
As an ex-RN WAFU I would have no problem with the army situation and accept an NCO pilot as a/c captain if he was best qualified to be so.
Why does the pilot sign the 700? The person who should accept the a/c is the captain of said a/c. All crew should read it anyway.
In the RN it is generally accepted that the senior chap will be a/c captain as he is normally the most experienced aviator. After all captaincy is about decision making not pole-ing. Captaincy type decisions are normally required when situations change eg diversons, wether changes, emergencies etc the most experienced guy is best placed to make such decisions.
As an ex-RN WAFU I would have no problem with the army situation and accept an NCO pilot as a/c captain if he was best qualified to be so.
Why does the pilot sign the 700? The person who should accept the a/c is the captain of said a/c. All crew should read it anyway.
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Good point fella but I have to disagree on one point.
In the RN the a'c Commander is the most senior because of seniority. If one of the guys is a GL/Fishhead whatever you wanna call them, then they may only have a handful of hours BUT they will be the A/C because they are senior. Flying hours, Experience has nothing to do with it. Its all down to seniority.
In the RN it is generally accepted that the senior chap will be a/c captain as he is normally the most experienced aviator.
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Flying hours, Experience has nothing to do with it. Its all down to seniority.
Using your argument, in the civilian world then the passenger paying the most for their First Class ticket should decide on where and how the aircraft lands!
My stick, my vote (with reasoned argument from others) and yes, I have done my CRM course!