Raf"s Jolly To Alps Is Snow Joke
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£250K for 40 people for 23 days works out at under £300 per person
all the crap they've had thrown at them over the past years - the sh*t dets, the cutbacks, the bad management from their airships, the fact that when they go home their families don't recognise them because it's been that long since they were home
yawn....
The point is Mike you don't know they were on a skiing holiday, I take your point that lots of numptys will believe what the papers write, but at the end of the day there are a lot better qualified people than I would suggest you who can vouch for what they were doing and why.
Theres a whole raft of reasons that location could have been chosen, forthcoming deployment for a start.
Some of the best training, if not the best training, is available at the Red Flag ranges near you know where. Are you suggesting we don't train there because its to nice a place for the RAF to be seen in.
Maybe the Mirror would be better sending its Journalists (loose term I know) following the RAF to the more ****ty locations it has to go, and get a real take on what happens, rather than trying to sniff a story out of **** all squared.
The point is Mike you don't know they were on a skiing holiday, I take your point that lots of numptys will believe what the papers write, but at the end of the day there are a lot better qualified people than I would suggest you who can vouch for what they were doing and why.
Theres a whole raft of reasons that location could have been chosen, forthcoming deployment for a start.
Some of the best training, if not the best training, is available at the Red Flag ranges near you know where. Are you suggesting we don't train there because its to nice a place for the RAF to be seen in.
Maybe the Mirror would be better sending its Journalists (loose term I know) following the RAF to the more ****ty locations it has to go, and get a real take on what happens, rather than trying to sniff a story out of **** all squared.
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Just because Joe Public believes the lies the tabloid press print as concrete fact does not mean that we can do anything about it. The spin of the story is clear in the fact that the RAF rebuttal was given a paltry single sentence.
I think the Mirror lost all credibility with regard to military matters after the "faked pictures" fiasco. That, and their inability to support the troops (as separate from the politics) during TELIC would appear to give them a clear grudge against the military.
I think the Mirror lost all credibility with regard to military matters after the "faked pictures" fiasco. That, and their inability to support the troops (as separate from the politics) during TELIC would appear to give them a clear grudge against the military.
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I don't know they were on a skiing holiday. In fact seeing as the Sqdn is just around the corner from me I know exactly what they were doing...BUT the point is that Joe Public KNOWS they were on a skiing holiday cos he read it in the paper....and in the paper everything is true...
So, how do we go about getting Joe public on our side once again...
So, how do we go about getting Joe public on our side once again...
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Mike - have a care or you will be reported to the EU Fisheries Commissioner. You must have exceeded the entire UK quota in this thread.
Well cast, sir - even though your early posts on the thread were rather more obviously tongue-in-cheek.
That said, the story will be tomorrow's chip-wrapper. Joe Public will have forgotten it and I only hope some arslikahn staff officer doesn't waste more public funds by starting a BoI or anything stupid like that.
Well cast, sir - even though your early posts on the thread were rather more obviously tongue-in-cheek.
That said, the story will be tomorrow's chip-wrapper. Joe Public will have forgotten it and I only hope some arslikahn staff officer doesn't waste more public funds by starting a BoI or anything stupid like that.
How much do you think it would cost for similar training to be done in civi street then Mike? How much do these ' seminars' that top brass and managers cost per day and what do they get out of them?
The costs would have included everything from getting the aircraft and troops there, the daily pay rates for the troops, cost per man hour for flying the cabs themselves, the cost per man-hour for keeing the cabs serviceable, fuel. Any time they spent skiing is classed as adventurous training - or would you have preferred them to mount a second deployment back out to Switzerland, with all its attendant costs for that?
Now lets see what they would have actually got out of this "jolly" Other than the aircrews getting experience in flying in high and cold conditions, there is the management and leadership experience gained by actually putting together the deployment - especially if given to one of the JOs who had not done that sort of thing before; the benefits the entire deploymet gained from operating in a testing unfamiliar environment ... because we never go on deplyoed ops these days do we - god forbid we might want to practice for an upcoming deployment; and if nothing else, an increase in morale - you know - one of the fundametal components in any fighting organisation, the lack of which can scupper the best equipped and trained unit and render it totally useless.
Show me how much that lot would have cost if Bristows had decided to do it and I bet you we got better value for money in terms of costs and the benefits gained than any civi firm would have done. I still stand by my argument that it was money well spent.
The costs would have included everything from getting the aircraft and troops there, the daily pay rates for the troops, cost per man hour for flying the cabs themselves, the cost per man-hour for keeing the cabs serviceable, fuel. Any time they spent skiing is classed as adventurous training - or would you have preferred them to mount a second deployment back out to Switzerland, with all its attendant costs for that?
Now lets see what they would have actually got out of this "jolly" Other than the aircrews getting experience in flying in high and cold conditions, there is the management and leadership experience gained by actually putting together the deployment - especially if given to one of the JOs who had not done that sort of thing before; the benefits the entire deploymet gained from operating in a testing unfamiliar environment ... because we never go on deplyoed ops these days do we - god forbid we might want to practice for an upcoming deployment; and if nothing else, an increase in morale - you know - one of the fundametal components in any fighting organisation, the lack of which can scupper the best equipped and trained unit and render it totally useless.
Show me how much that lot would have cost if Bristows had decided to do it and I bet you we got better value for money in terms of costs and the benefits gained than any civi firm would have done. I still stand by my argument that it was money well spent.
"...Joe Public...Joe Public...Joe Public..."
That's all I seem to be hearing from a certain poster recently. Why should we bother explaining what we do to the proles? 99.9% of them have no idea who, what, where we are or why we do it.
So what they don't know won't hurt 'em!
Especially if the turnout at the next general election is going to be p*ss poor again - they obviously don't care about defence as much as a certain poster here might like to suggest.
That's all I seem to be hearing from a certain poster recently. Why should we bother explaining what we do to the proles? 99.9% of them have no idea who, what, where we are or why we do it.
So what they don't know won't hurt 'em!
Especially if the turnout at the next general election is going to be p*ss poor again - they obviously don't care about defence as much as a certain poster here might like to suggest.
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One of the visits I made to Red Flag saw us staying in a fleapit motel at $100 per night [military rate]. We could have got a suite at Ceaser's Palace for $80 per night. Why, then, didn't we stay at Ceaser's Palace, saving the taxpayer $20 per head per night?
Because the PR Wallahs didn't want to feed the gutter press the headline 'RAF Aircrew Holiday at Top Las Vegas Casino - Funded by the Taxpayer'.
Because the PR Wallahs didn't want to feed the gutter press the headline 'RAF Aircrew Holiday at Top Las Vegas Casino - Funded by the Taxpayer'.
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Why should we bother explaining what we do
So what they don't know won't hurt 'em!
Clearly not a serviceman so leave this site and return to the gutter with the rest of your Journo leech's.
In the days when we were allowed to train our VC10 crews properly, we used to fly the 'States Trainer' to give them experience of cold/hot/high/mil and civil aerodromes. 2 crews, 5 legs each including a pond hop for each crew. Met all the overseas training objectives and only took a week to achieve.
But we were told 'Not California', then 'Not New Orleans' - and then a list of politcially correct aerodromes was actually published in GASOs..
Why? Because the SASO didn't want to have to explain why one of his a/c was tits-up in New Orleans, Miramar or wherever. ****sville USA, no problem - but if there was the slightest sniff of it being somewhere nice, the idiot fun detectors' antennae would start twitching.
Of course, the concern wasn't at the unreliability of the knackered old things (that's the a/c, not just the instructors!) - but at the thought of 20 aircrew basking in the sun waiting for the supply system to raid a museum for the appropriate bit and then send it via the slowest form of transport known to man into the waiting hands of the 6 groundies who always travelled with us!
Once heard tell of a Vulcan whose hydraulics had given up in Hawaii. They asked whether they could use local USAF-sourced hydraulic fluid, but were told to remain where they were until a few tins of the approved RAF fluid could be sent out. Which, being DAC, had to go by Herc. It takes quite a while for Albert to bumble his sedate way out to Hickalulu - but I'm sure no-one in the Vulcan crew asked twice!
But we were told 'Not California', then 'Not New Orleans' - and then a list of politcially correct aerodromes was actually published in GASOs..
Why? Because the SASO didn't want to have to explain why one of his a/c was tits-up in New Orleans, Miramar or wherever. ****sville USA, no problem - but if there was the slightest sniff of it being somewhere nice, the idiot fun detectors' antennae would start twitching.
Of course, the concern wasn't at the unreliability of the knackered old things (that's the a/c, not just the instructors!) - but at the thought of 20 aircrew basking in the sun waiting for the supply system to raid a museum for the appropriate bit and then send it via the slowest form of transport known to man into the waiting hands of the 6 groundies who always travelled with us!
Once heard tell of a Vulcan whose hydraulics had given up in Hawaii. They asked whether they could use local USAF-sourced hydraulic fluid, but were told to remain where they were until a few tins of the approved RAF fluid could be sent out. Which, being DAC, had to go by Herc. It takes quite a while for Albert to bumble his sedate way out to Hickalulu - but I'm sure no-one in the Vulcan crew asked twice!
Last edited by BEagle; 12th Jan 2005 at 08:03.
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mike nice fishing.
I think you can use less bait now as there are plenty of biters taking a nibble!
PS wots the AF thing? I thought the Sqn you are whinging over was in the RAF
Its pi@sing down outside so I suspect your spaceship won't be coming today to take you back to your home-planet any time soon
I think you can use less bait now as there are plenty of biters taking a nibble!
PS wots the AF thing? I thought the Sqn you are whinging over was in the RAF
Its pi@sing down outside so I suspect your spaceship won't be coming today to take you back to your home-planet any time soon
Why can't we have a little fun on the back of a trainer? The Sqn have had a really sh&te year with Iraq/crashes/deployments...they and all the military deserve the odd perk...how many snivel servants have had to go to Iraq/risk getting bown up by some irate fundamentalist recently. Yeah I hear the arguement about value for money, and there being a cold weather training unit in Norway etc, but someone should get a few journos together and make them live like the boys do in the field.
p.s I know some already do/have done...maybe we should trawl some random civvies and take them to camp Dogwood and do a 'I'm Scared Witless, Get Me Out Of Here' TV reality show on them.
p.s I know some already do/have done...maybe we should trawl some random civvies and take them to camp Dogwood and do a 'I'm Scared Witless, Get Me Out Of Here' TV reality show on them.
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they and all the military deserve the odd perk
You lot should do the job you are trained to do and stop trying to hoodwink the public by lame excuses as to conducting Moutntain flying whilst actually your off on a jolly.
but someone should get a few journos together and make them live like the boys do in the field.
Just get on with it and stop the drip.
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So come on Mike, give us a clue...
After such excellent fishing, are you serving as you sometimes suggest -
eg quote "So, how do we go about getting Joe public on our side once again..."
or are you a journo/ sad-sideliner ?
eg quote "You lot should do the job you are trained to do and stop trying to hoodwink the public by lame excuses "
I have a good idea myself as it has to have been a few yrs since I saw anyone in the RAF refer to a squadron as "sqdn" or the RAF as "AF".
As for your bleat about the PR machine.
"And, so what does the great PR machine do (whilst bleating that the AF is so short of money we are forcing to make redundancies) we send a squadron on a skiing holiday....Great" - I think you'll find the PR machine had very little indeed to do with the decision to send the boys.
We don't really care, as those of us who have 'been there and done it' know how on dets like that we usually work hard/play hard and reap the benefits when we go on ops as a well trained cohesive unit.
But civvie or not, since you are so knowledgeable about the workings of the sqn "In fact seeing as the Sqdn is just around the corner from me I know exactly what they were doing..." we really look forward to hearing your further words of wisdom!
After such excellent fishing, are you serving as you sometimes suggest -
eg quote "So, how do we go about getting Joe public on our side once again..."
or are you a journo/ sad-sideliner ?
eg quote "You lot should do the job you are trained to do and stop trying to hoodwink the public by lame excuses "
I have a good idea myself as it has to have been a few yrs since I saw anyone in the RAF refer to a squadron as "sqdn" or the RAF as "AF".
As for your bleat about the PR machine.
"And, so what does the great PR machine do (whilst bleating that the AF is so short of money we are forcing to make redundancies) we send a squadron on a skiing holiday....Great" - I think you'll find the PR machine had very little indeed to do with the decision to send the boys.
We don't really care, as those of us who have 'been there and done it' know how on dets like that we usually work hard/play hard and reap the benefits when we go on ops as a well trained cohesive unit.
But civvie or not, since you are so knowledgeable about the workings of the sqn "In fact seeing as the Sqdn is just around the corner from me I know exactly what they were doing..." we really look forward to hearing your further words of wisdom!
This is probably the same Mirror jurno that contemplated having people put back in the trees in Africa, so they could see a uk Helo rescue them!! Seemingly it would look good to the UK Tax Payer... not to mention his scoop!
Its amazing how low these guys can go and then ask for a free ride to get to the action.
Its amazing how low these guys can go and then ask for a free ride to get to the action.